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YWN Coffee Room » Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues

Philosophical Qs—NO KFIRAH

(174 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Wisey
  • Latest reply from yitayningwut

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  1. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    If a tree falls with noone around does it make a noise?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. zvei dinim
    Member

    That's not a philosophical Q, it's asking "what is the definition of noise?".

    Zvei Dinim

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Veltz Meshugener
    K'shmo kain hu

    Can you have philosophical questions without kefirah?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. BaalHabooze
    On the rocks

    maybe if it's an tree an Asheira tree...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    No questions are Kfira-dik. We are not Catholicism. We believe that all questions have an answer and therefore all philosophical questions are okay. It's the wrong answers that can be Kfira. (Yes, the Mishnah in Chagigah says not to ask 4 questions because those are beyond human comprehension and therefore could lead to people giving wrong answers.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; eccentric; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily engaged in cynicism.

    I agree with Sam.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Sound is only defined as sound vis a vis the resonance of sound waves on your inner aural workings. So technically, the oscillations without the ear are not sound.

    ^_^

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Aha. So you don't really 'hear' a sound, since that would be a redundancy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. BigGolem
    Member

    The Kfira is not in the question. It's in the answer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Depends how you define "hear." :P

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    Oy

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Hey, I didn't start this. :P

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    I think we disagree on what it means to define.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    By the way, a question might not be Kfira but it can still be the Rasha's question.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    snort

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. crazybrit
    This is a failed attempt at the longest subtitle in The Yeshiva World Coffee Room. However, as the old adage goes, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again". I'm on my 5th or 6th try. It does keep growing. I wonder if this is still a failed attempt! But as they say, "Try and fail, and try and fail but never fail to try again!"

    Takkah a good question, Now how we gonna prove an answer hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Curiosity
    Not a cat person

    Well,you don't refer to vacancy of animals as "no one around," so there might be a moose, hawk, or squirrel there who heard the tree fall. Then the answer would be yes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. frumnotyeshivish
    as distinct from topknot yeshivish

    Da mah Lehashiv L'apikores means that (even though you shouldn't say k'fira) you should be able to disprove it. That means you may listen to it to legitimately disprove it. Therefore, censoring statements isn't the solution. Truth is. Saying "No Kfira" isn't productive.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    As oppose to "light" which was created on the first day, "sound" was never created. Therefore, I would say that sound is only how one's brain interprets vibrations in the air.

    Too bad those who spent years figuring out if light is made of particles or only waves didn't just LEARN the first few psukim of Chumash.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Difference between sound and hearing:(From wiki)
    Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas, composed of frequencies within the range of hearing. [1] Sound also travels through plasma.

    Hearing, auditory perception, or audition [1] is the ability to perceive sound by detecting vibrations through an organ such as the ear. [2] It is one of the traditional five senses.

    It would seem that the sound produced by a falling tree is not predicated upon one with hearing abilities being within earshot.

    So I think the answer is yes it would make a sound or noise, however nobody would hear it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    WIY: The point is that the sound that you hear is not just registered by your ear - it is synthesized by it. So calling sound waves sound (which is not a very solid delineation, Wikipedia or not - what about the ultrasonic vibrations that are sound to dogs? Note the label ultrasonic) is rather imprecise - because you do not hear sound waves. You hear sound, created by the resonance of the waves on your ear stuffs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. yekke2
    Member

    A) What is philosophical about the question?

    B) Can somebody explain the צדדים here? I fail to understand why it shouldn't be a noise?

    C)

    Da mah Lehashiv L'apikores means that (even though you shouldn't say k'fira) you should be able to disprove it. That means you may listen to it to legitimately disprove it. Therefore, censoring statements isn't the solution. Truth is. Saying "No Kfira" isn't productive.

    I used to argue with missionaries a lot, and one of my Rebbes said: "Da mah lehashiv lapikores" is FOR YOU that you should know what to answer - it never says 'ANSWER THE APIKORES'. If an Apikores comes to YOU and asks you something, you should have the answer in your heart so that you are not influenced.

    D) אפשר we can bring a ראיה from ראש השנה כ"ט - the Gemara is differentiating between when half a תקיעה is before the זמן חיוב, and when half the תקיעה took place in a cave [where those outside are not יוצא] - the גמרא says הכא בור מקום חיובא לאותן העומדין בבור -- It is a place of חיוב for those inside the cave .

    Why does the גמרא have to say 'for those inside the cave'? That isn't the point we are coming to answer; the point is that it is a תקיעה של מצוה, whereas before the Time of the חיוב it isn't a תקיעה של מצוה? (I think one of the אחרונים asks the question)

    According to this question, maybe we can answer: It is only a מקום חיוב if somebody is there; if nobody is there, then it isn't 'HEARING THE SHOFAR'!!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    yekke2: There are philosophical implications to the question - that are validated, in fact, by technical explanations of the phenomenon. Technically, sound waves needs to be processed by aural receptors before you can call it sound (because the waves that are in the air are actually changed by your ear, creating what you hear.) This ties into an issue that a large body of philosophy is concerned about - human perception and reality.

    But really, unless you like them from the purely analytical perspective, such conundrums are best summed up as "the finding of bad reasons for what we believe upon instinct."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. yekke2
    Member

    And when were the vibrations in the air (SOUND) created?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    The SOUND WAVES were created when the tree fell.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    "sound" was never created

    What? You think it created itself?

    Just because the Torah didn't explicitly state it, doesn't mean that it wasn't created. The Torah is silent on the formation of tornadoes, but certainly you believe that God created them.

    The Wolf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    The creation of sound was included in the creation of eardrums. Tornadoes were included in shomayim,earth etc.

    I'm just surprised that no one responded to my statement about light by saying that the pasuk is referring to the or haganuz. It seems that everyone agrees that physical light was also created on day one.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    The "No Kfirah" was referring to the answers that might be posted as a response to the questions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. ready now
    Blocked

    When any tree anywhere falls it makes noise, and Hashem hears.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Hashem hears.

    Now THAT might be kefira.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. MediumThinker
    War does not determine who is right - only who is left

    If a tree falls on a mime, does he make a noise?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. ready now
    Blocked

    To even suggest that Hashem having created the entire universe and being fully in charge of it, is not all- hearing all- seeing, omniscient and a witness to everthing that has ever happened or will ever happen is entirely against the fundamentals of Yiddishkeit.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Hashem does not hear.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Oneofmany
    What do you mean? Obviously Hashem hears everything. He may not have "ears" but he can hear although hearing would obviously be different by Hashem than by us because we need ears and He doesnt.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    But if you can say he hears then you are saying that he is subject to your perceptions. The Rambam would probably call you a kofer for saying Hashem hears.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    WIY: According to my definition of hearing, it would be kefira to say Hashem is subject to such a phenomenon. Hashem's powers of observation and knowledge (if we can even use such words do describe them) are not derived from physical processes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    But what about Dovid Hamelech's Kal Vachomer?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. ready now
    Blocked

    This is Hashem’s definition of hearing, please accept it.
    Tehillim 94.8-9 “Understand you boors among the people, and you fools, when will you gain wisdom? He Who implants the ear, shall He not Hear? He who fashions the eye, shall He not see? “

    Also Hashem knows what will be heard before it is actually initiated, be it a tree falling or a Jew praying to Him –"Shema Kolenu" (hear our voices) - in Amida, three times daily, or the sound of anything else.

    How Hashem perceives sound is His business, but as the Holy One of Israel is also the Creator of melody, music and niggunim, it would be audaciously kefira (kefira is always audacious) to even suggest that He would not perceive sound, hear it, in its “original state”. Even as He has no physical body, He is completely unlike the false gods which have no senses, no life and no powers and thus also do not hear, because He has all the senses, does hear and more.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. yitayningwut
    I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

    If you are proving from pesukim that Hashem hears, I have much better stuff. The pesukim say that Hashem has an arm, a back, eyes, and so on. It's mefurash, Hashem has a body...

    I quote from the Rambam:

    "You, however, know that, strictly speaking, the condition of all the sensations is the same, that the same argument which is employed against the existence of touch and taste in God, may be used against sight, hearing, and smell; for they all are material perceptions and impressions which are subject to change... In truth, however, no real attribute, implying an addition to His essence, can be applied to Him, as will be proved." - Guide 2:47

    The Rambam is clear about his opinion in numerous places: Hashem's existence cannot be described in any way whatsoever, and ascribing any of the senses to him is tantamount to saying he has a body. Accordingly, every pasuk which seems to contradict this is to be taken figuratively.

    Whether you like it or not, to assert that Hashem hears is by definition a denial of the Rambam's third Principle of Faith.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. ready now
    Blocked

    No, Hashem does not have a body, although He has spoken of Himself in terms which may give some ignorant people the idea to ascribe actual physical corporeality to Him, and that would be a big mistake because He has no physical existence at all.

    The commentators were fully aware of any pitfalls regarding the understanding of the essence of the Holy One of Israel, His Unity, His Attributes, and were entirely compliant with Hashem’s Will in their Holy writings.

    To convey the idea that Hashem does in fact “hear”, as He has said He does, it may be necessary to say “Hashem is not deaf ”- Rambam style and this way, no one can be accused for having implied a defect in His Unity, has v shalom, as no change can be made to The Holy One, and He is perfect.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Yitay, you probably meant 1:47.

    The Rambam did indeed invest energy in explaining that when it says that Hashem saw it wasn't through eyes and when it says that Hashem hears it is not through ears. Nobody here suggested otherwise.

    Moreover, today we actually use these terms without connecting them to specific limbs. Don't we call sonar detection, vision? A computer sees and hears, without being aware of it.

    The main idea is that Hashem does not have to come on to light or sound to be aware of what is happening. This too is a well understood concept in an age of infrared, sonar, magnetic, radio, and electron detection.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44322&st=&pgnum=315
    or
    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/more/c6-2.htm#2
    The Rambam discusses the Kal Vachomer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. ready now
    Blocked

    Infrared , sonar, magnetic. radio and electron detection all require a detector, a sort of artificial “limb” to detect the presence of the sound , light etc. These are corporeal detectors. Hashem The Holy One of Israel, the Creator and Ruler of the Universe , He Who is without beginning and without end, has no corporeality at all. Hashem’s awareness of everything simultaneously is not dependent on physical detection by Him. Computers are not "aware" because they are not alive (even when plugged in). HaLeiVi is right in saying "The main idea is that Hashem does not have to come on to light or sound to be aware of what is happening." but it might be better to say "He does not need light or sound to be aware of what is happening"' because He is everywhere, without physicality, He strictly speaking does not "come on" to anything.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    I'm confused - who are you arguing with?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Sound is the "format" that our auditory organs use in order to transmit to our brains the knowledge that they have just recieved vibrations from the air, thereby informing us of an event that has just taken place. However, as the Rambam says in several places Hashem and his knowledge are one. Even though this concept is particularly difficult to understand and may not even be intended to be understood by anyone, one can deduce that since Hashem is above any form his "knowledge" is also not dependent upon any method requiring finite science. Also Hashem's knowledge of an act before it has taken place and "heard" by anyone is a great proof to the aforementioned. Therefore, that that Hashem hears all doesn't affect the question that we started with.
    P.S. Advils are available at any drugstore

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. ready now
    Blocked

    Wisey- We had already established that Hashem does not use ears or auditory canals to hear- He has no corporeality. And you have answered your own question -there always IS “someone around” - Hashem- there is no place without Him, and yes, He hears. That is not difficult to understand at all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    ready now-The fact that Hashem is always around doesn't affect the answer. If you will accept that a tree falling with no one around doesn't make a sound only vibrations in the air, then Hashem's presence won't change this since "hearing" is only figurative when referring to Hashem. All it means is that Hashem knows everything including those things which we perceive as sound.
    Does anyone have a different question to post here this is sort of getting redundant?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. ready now
    Blocked

    Wisey- I wrote above- “How Hashem perceives sound is His business, but as the Holy One of Israel is also the Creator of melody, music and niggunim, it would be audaciously kefira (kefira is always audacious) to even suggest that He would not perceive sound, hear it, in its “original state”.”

    Do you think maybe your original question might be rephrased to ”when a tree falls with no human or living creature around, is there a noise?” I would still give the answer I gave, notwithstanding the fact that Hashem does not have physical auditory receptors (as He has no corporeality, as we all already acknowledged). So a noise is made, as Hashem heard.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Can form really exist without matter?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. Wisey
    inventor of banana mush

    Ready now- Hashem knows all without having to "perceive" it. Meaning that Hashem doesn't need to come on to anything in order to know about it.
    Haleivi-If that is supposed to be connected to the above discussion I fail to understand the question.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. ready now
    Blocked

    Wisey- Haleivi said "come on to anything".

    I was explaining that Hashem does not do that - He is everywhere. I quoted, then corrected his words - notice the quotation marks?

    Posted 1 year ago #

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