Rav Miller Website Accuses ‘Joseph’ Of Stealing

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  • #1478038

    Y.W. Editor
    Keymaster

    The following was submitted to YWN:

    Hi, I run a website TorasAvigdor.org

    There is a User in the coffee room that constantly posts our material without permission, besides for it being a copyright infringement, we are bothered by the fact that this allows people to comment on the words of Rav Miller Z”L. Since we have no way to contact this user “joseph” we ask that you contact him and ask him to stop, and if possible to remove his previous Rabbi Miller Q&A quotes, thanks.

    Pinchas Wolhendler, Director TorasAvigdor.org

    #1478043

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    we are bothered by the fact that this allows people to comment on the words of Rav Miller Z”L.

    Why is that a problem?

    #1478049

    Meno
    Participant

    Why is that a problem?

    I was wondering the same thing

    #1478052

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There’s no way something this entertaining would ACTUALLY happen this close to Purim.

    #1478060

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I thought this was a Purim joke, but the website exisits and it does seem some of the posts were copied word for word

    #1478071

    GAON
    Participant

    ” besides for it being a copyright infringement”

    Unless its a Purim prank, it is total עם הארצות ! Torah is Hefker and ANYONE is allowed to repeat Shiurim. You only have the copyrights (if!) on the recordings.

    Aderabeh – Rav Avigdor Miller would have wanted his shiur to be publicized in any way possible.
    To “copyright” torah in such manner is a Bizoyan!
    What’s next ? Am I allowed to repeat a shiur from Rav Elyashiv etc…

    #1478081

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, I think all of them were. These Q&A are available on the site, or as an email subscription.

    #1478087

    laskern
    Participant

    I think they are concerned that Rav Miller will not be respected by the comments on his shiurim, not so much the copyright infringement.

    #1478091

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Copyrights are not necessarily the Torah way, but they are US law.

    #1478094

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,
    Wow, you are correct it looks like the exact same wording!

    While I am still not sure about the “copyrights”, as there is no monetary claims involved, nor does the site note anything about it being “copyright” (?) , but Joseph should have given credit where it is due.
    He definitely should have mentioned the site. It is no doubt the ‘appropriate’ thing to do.

    #1478103

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Torah is Hefker…”

    Seems like a somewhat novel legal concept….If I write a sefer, “Gadolhadorah”s Torah Insights” and get it copyrighted, I would very much disagree that my brilliant insights and analysis are “hefker”

    #1478106

    laskern
    Participant

    Does not דיני דמלכותא דיני apply?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1478088

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Anything that might rid us of a portion of Joe’s tolling of FAKE MUSAR would be in the public interest. This Pinchas Wolhendler complaint is valid since it is burdensome for him to obtain R. Miller’s views on some of the postings made in response to Joe’s “Miller Q&As” since not all yidden have the ability to communicate on a timely basis with chashuve rabbonim resident in olam habah. A copyrighted d’var torah by R. Miller (or from some pintele yid in Minsk for that matter) has the same legally protected status any other copyrighted material.

    #1478110

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Torah is Hefker and ANYONE is allowed to repeat Shiurim”

    This is true. If you wish to share Rabbi Millers torah with the public, study it, transcribe it and disseminate it. You cant disseminate someone elses work. though.

    #1478120

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    The problem I can think of is that Joe doesn’t want the geulah so much, because then he would have quoted where he got it from

    #1478121

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I can certainly see where the owners of Rav Miller legacy would want to control where his torah is posted. I have seen his torah posted against the wrong audience and a huge averiah was done by those who did not understand it

    #1478122

    laskern
    Participant

    It says ובתורתו the Torah is his. We pasken רב שמחל על כבודו, מחל not בזיונו.

    #1478123

    cherrybim
    Participant

    © 2018 Simchas Hachaim Publishing.

    Above copyright info is shown the website.

    However, I believe you are in compliance with government rules for copying as long as you don’t profit from it.

    #1478157

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    While there is no legal concept such as “copyright” explicitly referenced in tanach there is a considerably more basic concept called “ganavah” which generally is frowned upon…like any other intellectual property, the writings of a talmid chacham on matters of torah are no less worthy of protection than the writings of a scientist or business person on issues of importance to the tzibur. A rav who has expertise in certain matters of halacaha is frequently compensated for sharing his expertise in various forums. You can repeat in your own words what you thought he said but you cannot violate any copyright protections against a recording or printed rendition of his comments, if he claimed such protection.

    #1478178

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Gaon – read the thread I posted about R’ Miller’s views on the internet. He clearly stated that when someone offered to put his shiurim online, he refused, because he was against the internet. So no, I don’t think he would have wanted his Torah posted online, even on the website which is now complaining.

    #1478202

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I’m sure the website exists, but seriously?
    Copyright? I mean….it’s torah!

    Why are you afraid people will comment on it? If people mock daas torah, they’ll do it even without direct quotes from your site…

    #1478547

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If its an audio recording and he/she is repeating over a recording verbatim, there certainly is no problem because most if not all his shiurim were recording by many Ttendees of the shiur etc. Quoting word for word from a website may be a bit more problamatic because someone put work putting it into a website for reading putrposes.

    #1478562

    DovidBT
    Participant

    read the thread I posted about R’ Miller’s views on the internet. He clearly stated that when someone offered to put his shiurim online, he refused, because he was against the internet. So no, I don’t think he would have wanted his Torah posted online, even on the website which is now complaining.

    I wonder if he would have objected to someone making a profit from selling his shiurim, as that web site does.

    #1478927

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I can’t believe people are actually falling for this and taking it seriously…

    The site mentioned has “share on facebook or twitter” buttons at the bottom of every single R. Miller quote, they clearly aren’t concerned with people sharing and commenting on it.

    I really hope the reactions are also Purim Torah, but it sadly doesn’t seem like it. The fact that people actually think this is how copyright law works is really embarrassing.

    #1478931

    GAON
    Participant

    Gadol

    ““Gadolhadorah”s Torah Insights” ‘copyrighted”

    Well, yours not LOL.

    As per Halacha it is muttar. If you give a Shiur for the public and someone goes and repeats it or even quotes you fully in a sefer. No doubt – you can not claim it is MY Torah and no one is to repeat it . Even published sforim are not so simple that anyone can claim it as Copyright after you covered all your expense.

    If you ever looked into the approbations of any old sefer you will see, one of the things mentioned is a prohibition of reprinting the sefer after a certain time frame or, until the author makes his profit etc. No need to say, if there is no profit involved it should be allowed.

    #1478935

    GAON
    Participant

    DaM.

    “He clearly stated that when someone offered to put his shiurim online, he refused, because he was against the internet.”

    Based on that it is certainly no problem, ever heard of the Halacha הגונב מן הגנב פטור …..

    #1478970

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    פטור אבל אסור

    #1478971

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. I agree with everything GAON wrote above. 2. I spoke to them about six months ago, before they had a website (at the time it was email-only), and Amichai from their team said he was okay with posting it here or anywhere since his primary goal was to disseminate Rav Miller’s Torah as widely as possible. I now asked him to clarify if this position has changed and am awaiting his getting back to me.

    #1478972

    Toi
    Participant

    Interesting. I haven’t looked at the website, so I can’t offer an opinion, but copyright law is not always the most glatt. al pi sechel. I’m a photographer on the side and have had multiple copyright problems, and as a result, did some serious research. Poskim in general actually do uphold copyright as a valid halachic idea, and I don’t know that it’s so simple that this wouldn’t be copyright infringement.

    #1478975

    GAON
    Participant

    Dovid,

    Not only that, the site states the following:

    “Through its Simchas Hachaim Publishing division, the Library actively produces new sfarim based on Rabbi Miller’s recordings and writings, with the single-minded goal of making his inspiring teachings ever more accessible and available.”

    How does that work when the charge over $1k for all his shiurim… and then claim “copyrights” ?

    With all bashing aside, I think Joseph did nothing wrong, other than not mentioning the source. He did exactly what they claim to be their ultimate Goal “making his inspiring teachings ever more accessible and available.” As I believe none of us ever knew this site even existed…

    #1478989

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I can’t belive THESE people are making money off of his teachings.
    It should be free, for everyone..

    #1478996

    GAON
    Participant

    T2,
    “פטור אבל אסור”
    True, but we are not talking about monetary… just in terms of the concept of “to put his shiurim online, he refused, because he was against the internet.”
    And in this case it was already on the web…

    #1478995

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Joseph cited his source. His source is Rabbi Miller.

    If Wikipedia quotes Abraham Lincoln and I use that same quote, do you think I have to cite Wikipedia?

    #1479002

    GAON
    Participant

    Shopping,

    I will give them the benefit of the doubt . The money might go for the Yeshivah or/and to cover the maintenance of the site. Although, they do have a “donation” option…

    #1479013

    Joseph
    Participant

    Also note that all the quotations were from public shiurim that many people attended and were free to take their own notes quoting anything the Rov said. The only service from this place (and it is a very praiseworthy service) is to transcribe what the Rov said in those public shiurim that anyone was free to attend and write down (and later share with others, if so desired.)

    Btw, the TorasAvigdor website is not affiliated with Rav Miller’s Yeshiva, family or with Simchas Hachaim. It is a private effort by regular talmidim of the Rov who want to disseminate his Torah on their own.

    #1479039

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If the leadership of the website requests you STOP appropriating their materials, than have the derecho eretz to follow their request. If you have recordings or other sources, than use those sources but don’t use their material w/o permission.

    #1479059

    Uri22
    Participant

    simple solution: paraphrase instead of direct quote.
    fyi – a quote from a body of work, even word for word is permissible as long as it’s credited to the source.

    #1479075

    Joseph
    Participant

    Uri: Like Neville pointed out, the source is Rabbi Miller. Specifically, from his public shiurim attended by many.

    #1479082

    laskern
    Participant

    I am confused. Who gave the rights to the website to distribute Rav Miller’s Torah?

    #1479084

    laskern
    Participant

    If the web site collected all Rav MIller’s public shiurim isn’t that time and work that gives them some right over others?

    #1479094

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “If the web site collected all Rav MIller’s public shiurim isn’t that time and work that gives them some right over others?”

    No. If you cite the source it’s not plagiarism.

    #1479101

    laskern
    Participant

    Did Joseph cite the source? Would the source be Rav Miller ztzl or the web site?

    #1479109

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joseph, even if everything you said is correct, how do you explain your going against the wishes of R’ Miller, who said he didn’t want his shiurim on the internet? Never mind what the site is doing, they’re going against it too, but why do you think it’s ok when R’ Miller said he was strongly against it?

    #1479116

    Joseph
    Participant

    DaMoshe, Rav Miller’s Yeshiva, where his son is Rosh Yeshiva, also has a website (Simchas Hachaim) and email list dedicated to disseminating Rav Miller’s Torah.

    #1479154

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    You didn’t answer the question.

    #1479165

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I thought it was a pretty good answer. Do you think Joseph needs to be more machmir than R’ Shmuel Miller?

    #1479177

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Actually, the website is Joseph’s source, not Rabbi Miller.
    Yes, everyone had the right to attend the shiurim and take notes. If you asked 20 attendees who took notes to give you a verbatim description, how many different versions do you think you’d get? Yet, Joseph, and the website, present these tapes as accurate , verbatim transcriptions. Were they actually taped? Did the website have exclusive access? If they have legal rights to the tapes, and expended time and money to create accurate transcriptions, they have a right to control them.
    If you disagree, you can always seek out one of those 20 alternative versions

    #1479175

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Neville
    There is a difference between plagiarism and fair use
    When you quote you can’t be accused of plagiarism but you can infringe on copyright laws
    But unless this website was given the rights to the material then they are technically guilty of copyright infringement as the quotes/ideas belong to the owner or his inheritors for something like 90 years (fair use laws)
    I would love to get CTL opinion
    I also find it hard to believe that the non commercial use of ideas being used in discussions can be copyrighted as that essentially puts freedom of thought / discussion at risk
    Not to mention the idea that halachically, case law always centered around the effort of the typesetters. Copyright was granted to protect and insure profit so that Torah would continue to be disseminated, where is the loss here? If the website is free they can’t claim Torah copyright.
    The only argument that seems to hold water is Rav Millers views and if his descendants /inheritors don’t follow them why should Joseph?

    #1479201

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Any IP attorney will tell you that compilation, transcription and presentation of the work of a third party in a particular format should not be reprinted without attribution for fair use, and then only in limited format. Joe can squirm around and seek to explain his ganavah of the website’s IP rights but g’navah is g’navah. Simply apologize, request fair use approval going forward from the website and move on if they approve, If not, find another source for quoting Rav Miller to the extent you believe his views are important.

    #1479205

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    How many years was it from the time rav miller said/made his opposition about his tapes going on line to when he died?

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