Reb Moshe on Shabbos Clocks

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  • #1467962

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does Reb Dovid permit use of a timer on Shabbos for an air conditioner, even though he’s father forbade it?

    #1468660

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know what R’ Dovid holds, but I believe R’ Moshe would likely continue to asser.

    In his teshuvah about timers, as I recall, he states that the reason to permit them for lights is that since it was customary to ask a non Jew to put on a light for Seudah Shlishis, it is not zilzul Shabbos. The same wasn’t and isn’t true for air conditioning.

    #1468727

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: It is also possible that now, since air conditioning is more prevalent and is considered (by most) as a necessity, R’ Moshe may come to a different conclusion.

    #1468733

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why does “the velt” that generally follows Reb Moshe’s psakim disregard Reb Moshe when it comes to air conditioners on a Shabbos clock?

    #1468736

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is also possible that now, since air conditioning is more prevalent and is considered (by most) as a necessity, R’ Moshe may come to a different conclusion.

    I don’t see why prevalence should change the din, and it’s being a necessity doesn’t preclude leaving it running a whole Shabbos.

    #1468737

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why does “the velt” that generally follows Reb Moshe’s psakim disregard Reb Moshe when it comes to air conditioners on a Shabbos clock?

    R’ Moshe’s talmidim might very well avoid use of timers on Shabbos.

    Many people follow many of his psakim, but not necessarily all. This may very well be one of those psakim which most poskim of his time disagreed with, and therefore wasn’t widely accepted.

    #1468744

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: I heard this from Rabbi Reisman regarding another psak of R’ Moshe. I also know that Rabbi Perl A”H stated many times that he followed R’ Moshe’s timer psak.

    #1468745

    DovidBT
    Participant

    don’t see why prevalence should change the din, …

    What about the practice of men using mirrors for cosmetic purposes? Is that a reasonable analogy?

    #1468746

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Does Reb Dovid permit use of a timer on Shabbos for an air conditioner, even though he’s father forbade it?”

    No.

    “Why does “the velt” that generally follows Reb Moshe’s psakim disregard Reb Moshe when it comes to air conditioners on a Shabbos clock?”

    Halacha is largely determined by consensus. the “velt” was never mekabel this pesak. As DY points out I don’t think many people follow alll of R’ Moshe’s Pesakim. I was at a wedding that R’ Bluth attended, at which he left early. My father jokingly asked him if he made sheva berachos at his table which R’ Moshe holds is a chiyuv on individuals at a wedding. I dont remeber his reply but he didnt

    #1468876

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Presumably more and more people have central air, so it becomes a non-issue. Even lights aren’t as much of an issue as they used to be. Modern lighting uses less electricity than old incandescent lights, so we leave lights on in non-bedrooms all Shabbos. In bedrooms, we use Shabbos lamps.

    #1468879

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: I heard this from Rabbi Reisman regarding another psak of R’ Moshe.

    Which psak? Not all psakim are comparable (obviously).

    #1468912

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: I asked a private shailoh to Rabbi Reisman in 2004 and his psak was based on a psak of R Moshe from the 1970’s. He told me that based on current circumstances R’ Moshe might reach different conclusions then when he wrote his tshuva.

    #1468931

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “What about the practice of men using mirrors for cosmetic purposes? Is that a reasonable analogy?”

    I understand what you’re getting at, but no. The issur of using a mirror was specifically based on the societal norm that only women used mirrors. Since that societal norm changed, the issur went away. Air conditioners are a problem because they make loud noise, that hasn’t changed. If someone were to make a silent AC, I would imagine it would warrant a new psak.

    #1468933

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    DY, could you explain how it was ever mutar to ask a goy to turn on lights? The old filament bulbs were for sure bishul; how could it be OK to directly ask a goy to do melachah d’oraisa for you?

    Or is it that the psak was saying the masses were doing an issur by using a Shabbos goy here so they’re better off with a heter to use timers to keep this from going on?

    #1468936

    laskern
    Participant

    I think that air conditioner would be ok. We don’t want to take away from the aura of Shabbos by listening to Radio/TV. to make an Uvdah Dchol but it does not mean that a person has to suffer and be uncomfortable on Shabbos. Are you allowed to get a Goy to put on the Radio/TV?

    #1468961

    laskern
    Participant

    There is such thing as Oneg Shabbos. Being in the dark or sweating in the heat is not Oneg Shabbos so I think you can use it even it makes some noise.

    #1468963

    Joseph
    Participant

    The societal norm of men not using mirrors is still the case in many or most frum communities.

    #1468967

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: I asked a private shailoh to Rabbi Reisman in 2004 and his psak was based on a psak of R Moshe from the 1970’s. He told me that based on current circumstances R’ Moshe might reach different conclusions then when he wrote his tshuva.

    So you’re saying that a psak can change if circumstances change. That’s not a chiddush. The question is if that applies here.

    #1468968

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think that air conditioner would be ok.

    We’re discussing what R’ Moshe’s opinion would be.

    #1468973

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, could you explain how it was ever mutar to ask a goy to turn on lights?

    I think they were meikil on amira l’akum even on a d’Oraisa (havara – the glowing filament is considered aish) for mitzvah d’rabbim (public shalishudis). I have to check back on the teshuvah. As I recall, R’ Moshe wasn’t accepting the heter, he was saying that since l’maaseh it was done (probably before timers were in common use or even invented) it leaves the realm of zilzul Shabbos.

    #1469057

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    One thing that has changed is that many of us now have our air conditioning on timers during the week.

    #1469087

    laskern
    Participant

    See Rema Shulchan Aruch Chaim (376,2) They allowed Amiroh Leakim for a Mitzva.

    #1469128

    laskern
    Participant

    Things and circumstances can change. It says in Devorim(17,9) Go to the priest who is around at that time. Samuel in his generation like Yiftoch in his generation even if he has less knowledge excluding Gezeros. Ruling that we must follow our gedolim in our time if the circumstances changed. See
    Panim Yafos there. See Tosfas Betzeh (6,1) d’h Vehoidnah currently.

    #1469146

    laskern
    Participant

    Reb Moshe did not want his Teshuvas translated because the circumstances can change and we don’t know the circumstances of his teshuva.

    #1469205

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: That is what I was saying since my first post on this issue. We really don’t know if R’ Moshe (who wrote his psak about shabbos clocks in 1977 (not specifically for air conditioners) would still say it is a “zilzul shasbbos” issue. As we know, this psak of R Moshe was not accepted as some of his psakim since the Chazon Ish paskened earlier about shabbos clocks on appliances other then lights.

    #1469209

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We really don’t know if R’ Moshe (who wrote his psak about shabbos clocks in 1977 (not specifically for air conditioners) would still say it is a “zilzul shasbbos” issue.

    We may not “know”, but nobody here (unless I missed something) has given a valid reason to think it would have changed. The fact that sometimes things do change isn’t a reason to think it changed here, nor is the fact that air conditioning is more common.

    #1469220

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    #1469240

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Neville ChaimBerlin, see specifically the third page to answer your question.

    #1469246

    laskern
    Participant

    I think that Amirah Leakim does not apply by an A/C as discussed above the same applies to a Shabbos clock since we can’t make our own gezeros after the completion of the Shas.

    #1469278

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s tzad to asser it as amira l’akum is that it’s included in Chazal’s issue not that Rav Moshe was making a new g’zeirah.

    #1469347

    laskern
    Participant

    If you want to understand Amiroh Leakim see the sefer Minchas Kohen Mishmeres Shabbos Shaar 1, Chap. 1-10

    #1469299

    laskern
    Participant

    It’s an argument among the Rishonim if Amirah Leakim is oral or biblical. How can we include something that happens automatically on shabbos to something that is done through an action?

    #1469409

    laskern
    Participant

    Anyway DaasYochid what are you saying? Didn’t I say that I think that amira leakum does not apply by an A/C?

    #1469412

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    So if they didn’t ask the Shabbos goy in the alte heim who turned on the lights to also turn on the AC or fans, who did they ask???

    #1469421

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: Agreed, anybody who follows R’ Moshe’s psak should not change what they do. However, it was not widely accepted and many people do set their air conditioners with timers.

    #1469423

    laskern
    Participant

    The isur of amira lleakum came out in order not to weaken by being all the work of shabbos through a goy thereby eliminating shabbos altogether. Such that if he has no goy he might do it himself. Rambam hilchos shabos (6,1, ) so we can say that this can apply on a shabbos clock also. But if there is a mitzva, he will realize that their is a limitation on the permission. As I mentioned before that oneg shabbos might be considered a mitzva.

    #1469458

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “As I mentioned before that oneg shabbos might be considered a mitzva.”

    OK, now you’re just being silly. The rationale of using “oneg Shabbos” to get around issurim has been employed by the Reforms for decades; it’s not going to hold any water here. I’m not accusing you of being like them, but surely you should be able to see the slippery slope you’re going down. If you say oneg shabbos mattirs a Shabbos goy, then why not have him turn on your TV? Drive you 45 minutes to shul?

    We hear you saying that this issur doesn’t apply to AC, what we aren’t hearing is your reasoning. You can keep repeating over and over that “circumstances change;” nobody here is disputing that. The question is WHAT circumstance changed in regard to AC units since the psak of Reb Moshe was given? Oneg Shabbos existed back then too, so you can’t use that.

    #1469483

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you say oneg shabbos mattirs a Shabbos goy

    It actually does for a d’rabonon (sh’vus d’sh’vus b’mokom mitzvah), but not every comfort and convenience falls under the category of Oneg Shabbos for this.

    For example, the main foods for the Shabbos seudos do, but nosh doesn’t.

    The poskim for the most part are in agreement that it is not muttar to ask a non Jew to turn on the a/c when it’s a matter of comfort (obviously, if there’s a health issue involved, some cases will be muttar).

    #1469531

    laskern
    Participant

    Putting on a stove by a goy on shabbos might be another problem of bishul akum.

    #1469526

    laskern
    Participant

    It it affects our spiritual well building I consider Oneg Shabbos, turning on TV is not spiritual כל שרוח הבריות נוחה ממנו it says ruach the spiritual the soul. Extreme heat can affect our learning.

    #1469527

    laskern
    Participant

    The Ben Ish Chay says that shabbos is called shabbos shalom because it unites body and soul.

    #1469528

    laskern
    Participant

    Does Reb Moshe talk about air conditioners? Riding in a car is biblical according Chasam Sofer for violation of resting.

    #1469534

    laskern
    Participant

    Anyway I was told by a Posek here in Staten Island that Reb Moshe revised his psak in later years. Please research.

    #1469549

    laskern
    Participant

    I agree fully with DaasYochid that circumstances matter.

    #1469551

    laskern
    Participant

    You are not a Daas Yochid anymore.

    #1469550

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does Reb Moshe talk about air conditioners?

    The teshuvah which I posted does not specifically address air conditioners.

    Anyway I was told by a Posek here in Staten Island that Reb Moshe revised his psak in later years.

    Doesn’t seem very likely.

    Please research.

    If you would provide a name, someone could research. Otherwise, it’s hard to prove a negative. Meanwhile, the teshuvah I posted was written in תשכ”ז, and R’ Dovid continues to asser (as per ubiquitin), so I’ll assume that he never retracted.

    #1469555

    5ish
    Participant

    Why do so many people who don’t know the first thing what they are talking about insist on talking about it????

    #1469558

    laskern
    Participant

    A talmid of Reb Moshe, Rabbi Tzvi Halevi Pollak, also known as the Grosswardeiner Rov.

    #1469610

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    NC: You asked what circumstances changed? Part of the zizul shabbos issue is the noise made by the appliance. Back in the 1970,s not every house had air conditioners and if they did, it was not in every room. It was still a luxury and not as today we deem it a necessity. In addition, the units themselves are much quieter today then in the 1970’s. These are the “circumstances” that have changed. Would or should it have an effect on the psak? I don’t know but it was Rabbi Reisman who told me that it is possible.

    #1469615

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    NC: You asked what circumstances changed? Part of the zizul shabbos issue is the noise made by the appliance…

    In addition, the units themselves are much quieter today then in the 1970’s.

    The teshuvah wasn’t about an air conditioner.

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