Reform “Rabbis”

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  • #1429127

    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    Two questions for YWN Users which I have been struggling to find an answer for

    1) What is the point of a reform rabbi and beth din if everything is allowed?
    If Judaism is so flexible and you do whatever you want, why have a beth din?

    2) What do reform rabbis know for their life, to be able to get this title “rabbi” (Besides for the dangers of donald trump and tikkun olam)??

    #1429348

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many members of the Reform and Conservative religions are not Jewish people. They either converted to one of those religions, were born into a line of maternal converts into those religions or were born to a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother or descendents from those type of families.

    #1429360

    The little I know
    Participant

    Answers to these two heavy questions:

    1) There is really no purpose for a rabbi in the Reform movement. However, someone needs the identity as the leader of the flock. In reality, there is no flock, just club members. But there needs to be a CEO. This masquerades as religion. It’s basically Purim all year round.

    2) The title rabbi connotes nothing. Many reform rabbis know less than the average frum kid in kindergarten. Some of us have actually observed the challenge between a 3-4 year old kid from a mainstream frum family and a Reform rabbi. These fellows get terribly embarrassed. What qualifies them for a title is having a tad more knowledge than the next fellow (or gal).

    #1429366

    hershh
    Participant

    They were excommunicated from Klal Yisrael 150 years ago and they are goyim . Their rulings are zilch.

    #1429377

    DovidBT
    Participant

    A Reform “rabbi” gets paid to tell the congregants exactly what they want to hear. Then, in the fashion of Orwellian Doublethink, the congregants tell themselves that they’re practicing Judaism properly, because the “rabbi” says they are.

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by  YW Moderator-33.
    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by  .
    #1429382

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Some of the comments here regarding conservative/reform “rabbonim” are simply stupid and childish. Most are NOT geyrim; most (conservative0 are highly knowledgeable about yiddeshkeit albeit not well versed in the nuts an bolts of many areas of halacha which are not part of their hashkafah. If you find it entertaining to go back and forth in insulting and demeaning other yidden, go at it…..next stop, MO….

    #1429413

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Rabbi” is an honorific used to denote a member of the jewish clergy.

    Rav Moshe z’l used the title when referring to members of the reform and conservative clergy. He used the title Rav when referring to a shomer torah umitzvos.

    #1429474

    Bitul
    Participant

    I know of a reform “rabbi” who is not only not jewish, but he is BLACK. He served a sentence of over 10 years in jail

    #1429471

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe, when writing in Hebrew called Reform and Conservative clergymen “rabbis”, spelling out the English term in Hebrew letters in middle of his Hebrew Psak. This is, in fact, Rav Moshe mocking them. It is similar to putting quotation marks around the term “rabbi”. And he didn’t use the term for individual Reform and Conservative clergymen but rather only when discussing them as a group.

    Like in his Psak saying it is assur to enter a Reform or Conservative house of worship sanctuary.

    #1429415

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Rabbi” is an honorific used to denote a member of the jewish clergy.

    Rav Moshe z’l used the title Rabbi and Rabbis when referring to members of the reform and conservative clergy. He used the title Rav and Rabbonim when referring to shomrei torah umitzvos.

    #1429510

    Meno
    Participant

    most (conservative) are highly knowledgeable about yiddeshkeit albeit not well versed in the nuts an bolts of many areas of halacha which are not part of their religion.

    Fixed that for you

    #1429527

    I know of a reform “rabbi” who is not only not jewish, but he is BLACK.

    Is there something wrong with being “BLACK?”
    (There are black Jews too, you know.)

    #1429569

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Again, if some of you get off on denigrating anyone claiming to be a rabbi who is not a musmach of certain yeshivos its your choice. The rules of the CR clearly don’t address simple courtesy and ahavas yisroel in relation to other yidden but they may have been drafted at a time when such menschlichkeit was taken for granted

    #1429589

    Joseph
    Participant

    GHD: Reform and Conservative isn’t Judaism, and their clergymen aren’t rabbis.

    #1429615

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    Just to quantify Joseph’s convert statement, the vast majority of conservative and reform Jews are not converts and are halachically Jewish, and just very very lost. We need to daven and do our hishtadlus to bring them back. It’s not a good thing that over 80% of JEWS aren’t keeping the Torah and there is an entire generation that don’t know what kriyas shema is.

    To address the topic of this thread, most people who are secular view a rabbi as more of a social worker role. They are there to help ease tensions in a community or relationship and provide life advice.

    #1429614

    DovidBT
    Participant

    I wonder if there has ever been a case in which a Reform pulpit “rabbi” became a Baal Teshuva, and then tried to convince his congregation that they were obligated to observe the mitzvos.

    #1429611

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    1) What is the point of a reform rabbi and beth din if everything is allowed?
    If Judaism is so flexible and you do whatever you want, why have a beth din?

    ————————————
    Goyim are also flexible and do whatever they want for the most part, but yet they have a court system. Om not sure what your question is?

    #1429590

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “1) What is the point of a reform rabbi and beth din if everything is allowed?
    If Judaism is so flexible and you do whatever you want, why have a beth din?”

    Maybe it is to offer guidance in non-halachic matters

    People Without a Rov

    #1429592

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unfortuantly I know Rabbis who are white and orthodox who spent time in jail 🙁

    #1429608

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    ember 18, 2017 1:24 pm at 1:24
    chochom
    I know of a reform “rabbi” who is not only not jewish, but he is BLACK. He served a sentence of over 10 years in jail
    _——————————————–
    I know over 10 rabbanim who are white claim to be יראי שמים ושלמים and are currently serving time in jail.

    #1429698

    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    reform people tend to be very poor financially as they feel empty spiritually which means they lose success in everything they do

    #1429695

    shimen
    Participant

    katam hador
    pointing out sombody that hes oiver kol hatorah and leading congregents astray is not hate. when ons will come and say 3 innings, oblong ball 6 players is baseball and you will tell him no, are you hating him, are you intolerant?
    ahavas yisreol? we dont hate them but that term does not apply to heretics see psochim perek arvei psochim etc etc.
    interesting ,godel hador and co. (yonesony etc etc )you all show show your hate for real shomrei torah but all off a sudden to kofrim …’ lo becghinom hulach hazaezur eitzel huoirev ala mipnay shehu mino’

    #1429718

    Joseph
    Participant

    Serving time in jail is no indication of actual guilt. It just means America’s corrupt judicial system jailed someone.

    Regarding the Reform and Conservatives, the number of non-Jewish/gentile members of Reform and Conservative is much more than people realize. We’re talking now over 200 years of fake converts. And those fake converts children, grandchildren, great-children, etc. In addition were getting close to 75 years of paternal descent being counted as Jewish, where the mother was gentile. And those paternal descents children and grandchildren.

    Kiruv professionals today have a significant problem figuring out whether a Reform or Conservative “Jew” who potentially may wish to become frum is even Jewish. Many are gentiles who consider themselves Jewish (Reform or Conservative) and have no idea that they are, in fact, a goy.

    #1429730

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Rabbi of Crawley
    reform people tend to be very poor financially as they feel empty spiritually which means they lose success in everything they do.
    ———————————————-
    Most charedim in Israel are very poor financially. According to you they should be ling success in everything they do.

    #1429741

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph

    Serving time in jail is no indication of actual guilt. It just means America’s corrupt judicial system jailed someone.
    ————-_——————
    Joseph why are you assuming these rabbis are in “american ” jails?

    #1429746

    Joseph
    Participant

    Takes2, non-American judicial system are even more corrupt.

    #1429752

    akuperma
    Participant

    Most Reform “rabbis” know as much about yiddishkeit as frum middle schoolers (i.e. a bit of humash, really can’t do gemara on their own). If they become baal tseuvah they have to do a lot of remedial work before they could learn in a regular yeshiva.

    Many of the early ones were frum Jews who needed parnassah, but that was two centuries ago.

    #1429769

    Yiddishe Kop
    Participant

    First of all, conservative is a relatively new thing (around 100 yrs old) and only became far from orthodox well after it started. there4 conservative r mostly jewish (I have relatives who were conservative).
    As 4 reform i dont know though id assume they have higher percentage og non jews still not even close to the majority.
    As a side point it happens 2 b that more conservative/reform rabbis are chozer bitshuva then others of the groups bec. when they start to learn about jewish philosophy the chop that what they practice isnt judaism at all.
    very sad that these frie yidden think what they r doing is what hashem wants they r am haratzim mamesh.(yes i know am haaretz usually refers 2 a frumma yid but you know what i mean)

    #1429762

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph

    Takes2, non-American judicial system are even more corrupt.
    —————————————-
    Joseph , would you be ok if all criminals in the world were suddenly released from thier jails because of your claim that the judicial systems are all corrupt.

    #1429796

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, what about the rabbis who plead guilty?

    #1429804

    Joseph
    Participant

    YY, what about them? Their alternative to pleading guilty is to take their case to court and face a near certain guilty verdict regardless of their innocence. Thus making pleading guilty the lesser miscarriage of justice.

    #1429810

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    Joseph your stats assume that everyone who is reform or conservative today was since their inception. Many people over 40 who are secular today have/had observant grandparents or at least great grandparents. The amount of time for non legit converts to assimilate into a family trees is not as long as you claim.

    Over 90% of the BTs I know had no questions about their Jewish status and grew up conservative or reform. Unless you feel the non real Jews would be less likely to be “chozer beteshuvah”, which one could argue.

    #1429899

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a mistaken assumption here. That if someone is not orthodox then they are reform or conservative. That is not true. Most people who are not orthodox are secular not reform. Meaning they dont belong to any denomination. reform isnt the default, Secular is the default. A reform jew might go to temple 2 times a year and maybe use a rabbi for a wedding or a funeral. A secular will almost never use a rabbi (except MAYBE a wedding or a funeral) and sometimes not even then

    #1430104

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    I have heard of story of a Reform Rabbi who became Orthodox. His name escapes me but his story is on the internet. I don’t think he tried to make his congregation frum, he just quit. I think he eventually obtained Orthodox smicha.
    I once knew a former Reform Cantor (female) who became frum and quit her congregation and got sued for breaking her contract.

    #1430383

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, the Novominsker Rav and Rav Salomon (among many others) have spoken out about the problem of dishonesty in business among so-called frum Jews. Here’s an excerpt from a 2009 article by Avi Shafran discussing Rav Shimon Schwab, ZTL: “Those who resort to… dishonesty,” [Rabbi Schwab] said, “while they may have the outward appearance of G-d-fearing Jews, deep down they are irreligious” – and he loudly emphasized the “ir” of “irreligious.” G-d provides us what He knows we need, Rabbi Schwab explained. To steal is to deny that fact, and any gains thereby ill-gotten are an inheritance bequeathed by evil.

    #1430381

    Bitul
    Participant

    @reubrew
    you may be reffering to David Nessenoff,only he was a conservative rabbi; not reform

    #1430423

    shimen
    Participant

    whats the discussion, if orthodox desecrate a mitzvah its out of temptation, and how many ball aveiros do you have BUT NOT AS A SHITAA unlike reform, conservative who reject the whole torah misini and the taryag. all their adherents….

    #1430837

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    “you may be reffering to David Nessenoff,only he was a conservative rabbi; not reform”
    No the person I am thinking of was definately Reform. and I think he was older. He might now be a pulpit rabbi at a MO shul in Ohio or the midwest.

    #1431072

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    @shimen most unobservant Jews aren’t doing it beshita they’re doing it beignorance

    #1431154

    DovidBT
    Participant

    most unobservant Jews aren’t doing it beshita they’re doing it beignorance

    That may apply to unaffiliated Jews, but in the case of the movements, it goes beyond ignorance. The non-O movements state as a matter of official policy that they reject the Divine origin of the Torah and the mitzvos. The leadership promotes that policy to the rank and file, and discourages dissent.

    #1431171

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ah nebech apikorus is oich an apikorus. Both the unaffiliated and the movements (lay and leadership) mostly do not believe Hashem created the world in seven days and do not believe the Torah as true. Thus they are apikorsum.

    #1435664

    MDG
    Participant

    “The non-O movements state as a matter of official policy that they reject the Divine origin of the Torah and the mitzvos. ”

    Most non-O Jews have no understanding of their religion. They are not beshita anything. They never spent much time looking into it. I would say that they are passive apikorsim.

    Gadolhadorah wrote that many Conservatives know much about Judaism. I think that was true a generation or two ago. The younger generation, for the most part, doesn’t know nor care.

    #1437008

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Most non-O Jews have no understanding of their religion. They are not beshita anything. They never spent much time looking into it. I would say that they are passive apikorsim.

    They’re not “passive”. They consciously avoid looking into it. If a member of a non-O congregation starts asking questions or making suggestions that are not in line with the movement’s doctrine, he’ll be ignored, laughed at, or otherwise discouraged.

    #1439530

    shimen
    Participant

    mdg 12/26 3.30 pm
    in this age where communication is unbelievable …its no excuse
    especially those who lahaches fight against the shmrei torah community,OO, WOW etc shen reshoim yirkav

    #1441323

    benignuman
    Participant

    I have interacted in learning with two reform rabbis and two conservative rabbis. Obviously, these are tiny sample sizes. But from my experience the typical conservative rabbi is much more learned in Torah and halacha than the typical reform rabbi.

    However, comparing either with Orthodox children is not really fair. There are areas in which the child might know more than the rabbi, but there will also be areas where the rabbi will know much more than the child.

    #1441321

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Nebech an apikorus is ocheit an apikorus” was the shita of Rav Chaim Brisker. Not everyone holds that way. Rav Chaim was coming to answer why the Rambam lists only 13 ikkarim (and other Rishonim list fewer). Don’t we have to believe everything in the Torah, how can their only be 13?

    The answer, according to Rav Chaim, is that these 13 (according to the Rambam) are the beliefs that define yehadus. If you don’t believe these 13, you don’t get a chelek in the next world, you are not a Torah Jew. Not as a punishment, but simply because you haven’t met the necessary basic criteria. Ma sh’ein kein, everything else in the Torah, we are required to believe. But if someone has a mistaken belief about them (say he believes the world was created in 8 days), he is not an apikorus.

    #1441330

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman, why would you engage in learning with apikorsum?

    #1441366

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph, each was a different story. One was an attempt on kiruv, one was a relative at a family event, one was in a class (where I was a captive audience), etc.

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