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A non Zionist would be concerned, but wouldn’t word it that way, would have a different way of dealing with it, and wouldn’t throw halacha under the bus, creating a much bigger problem.
Again none of the things you mention have to do with being a Zionist or not. I’m not sure which part you’re referring to regarding the wording, nor am I sure which part you are referring to regarding the the way of dealing with, since you list throwing halacha under the bus as a separate category, which has to do with whether you care about halacha or not, not whether you are a Zionist or not.
Lior:
If you are mean logistically worse then that again would have nothing to do with Zionism. Unless you are saying that Zionism makes a person bad at logistics. If you mean halachically, then as I said to DaasYochid, that has to do with whether you care about halacha or not.
what I view as – a tremendous internal threat to the future of the state of Israel
He is not concerned for the future of klal Yisroel, only for the future of the State of Israel. This was obvious before I saw the quote, which just spells it out.
This is the danger of “isms”. He thinks he does care about halachah, but he is blinded by his “ism”. It’s the same as the OO. Different “ism” (liberalism), same skewing of the Torah.
Note: this is not a condemnation of every self identified Zionist or, for that matter liberal. I am just explaining why these movements are dangerous.
DaasYochid: Why is a concern for Jews in the state
of israel not a concern for klal yisroel? Half of world’s Jewry lives in Israel and well over half of Orthodox Jews in the world reside there.I find your biases disturbing in someone who says h strives for emess.
Why is a concern for Jews in the state
of israel not a concern for klal yisroel?
It is, but that’s not what he said, or what he did.
DaasYochid:
I wouldn’t say that he’s not concerned about the future of Klal Yisrael. I would say that he might have a different understanding of what is good for the future of Klal Yisrael.
P.S. What’s the danger of Juda”ism”?
Semantics. He thinks what’s good for “klal Yisroel” is what’s good for citizens of a secular state, not the am haTorah. In other words, he has redefined klal Yisroel. Sure, for a secular state, citizenry can be defined any way you want, and to throw a bone to halachah, he can find shittos (and then twist them) to say that what he’s doing is halachic. If he defined klal Yisroel as the am haTorah, he would never do that.
The citizens of the secular state happen to be part of Klal Yisrael. His concern is that they might end up marrying non-Jews if the incoming citizens don’t convert. That affects Klal Yisrael. Now his solution also affects Klal Yisrael. So you can disagree with him and say that his solution is against halacha and will affect Klal Yisrael more negatively than the problem he is trying to resolve will affect Klal Yisrael, but how much you care about preventing secular Jews from intermarrying and how much you care about upholding hilchos geirus is not determined by whether you are a Zionist or not. Is it possible that there are more people who don’t care about halacha who are Zionists than non-Zionists? Yes. It is very possible. But that’s because you can still be a Zionist even if you don’t care about halacha.
That’s not what he said, and that’s not what he meant.
DaasYochid:I must side with Patur on this.If you read the original article,you will clearly see that Rabbi Lipman was responding to an incident and he was concerned that if such incidents become more prevalent , it would prevent many people from going through a real geirus.Hence,his suggestion. As I said before, I think that there are enough ways of doing it without relying on “makilim”.Nonetheless,I appreciate Rabbi Lipman’s concerns and I think the vicious attacks o him are not warranted.
Let’s, say, for arguments’s sake, he was sincerely reacting to an actual unfortunate incident.
Does this give him the right to overturn established halachah? Does this give him the right to even get involved in a serious shailah involving klal Yisroel? Does it give him the right to twist and distort teshuvos to his liking?
His vicious attacks on the Torah, on the halachic process, and on kedushas Yisroel are what are unwarranted, and be needs to be called out on it.
And frankly, someone who so badly oversteps his bounds, and so badly twists his sources, has no credibility anyhow.
The citizens of the secular state happen to be part of Klal Yisrael
Only the Jewish citizens of that State are part of Klal Yisrael.
His concern is that they might end up marrying non-Jews if the incoming citizens don’t convert.
The solution, then, is for the State to not to accept incoming citizens who aren’t Jewish. Not to do a pretend-conversion and pretend they are Jewish and therefore if they marry it is somehow not an intermarriage.
As far as the non-Jews the State already granted entry, pretending they are Jewish following a pseudo-conversion where they continue to be Mechallel Shabbos the day following their mock conversion not only doesn’t fix the problem but makes it immeasurably worse in fooling some real Jews into believing those pseudo-converts are now Jewish and causing intermarriage by fellows who otherwise would never have married a non-Jew.
And the only reason he (and others) came up with this ingenuity, in the guise of religion, is due to their nationalism which is otherwise known as zionism. It was never to solve a religious problem, as it in fact makes the problem worse – and it’s a problem that was seeded by zionism in the first place – but rather to solve their nationalistic concerns.
DaasTorah:Honestly, I have no idea what you are accusing Rabbi Lipman of.He may not follow your guidelines but he sure did not do anything you are accusing him of.
“His vicious attacks”
The only viciousness I see here is from the people attacking Rabbi Lipman.
Well, that’s because Lipman hasn’t commented on the thread.
Tzionim are all the same
unlike the kj’s who seem to be remarkably individualistic
I’m trying to get Rav Lipman to come speak in our neighborhood like he did last time around. He’s part of the reason why I voted Yesh Atid & why I look forward to doing so again.
kj husid, you posted:
“Tzionim are all the same”
Thank you! 🙂
Your welcome?
isnt this why reform started conversions (didnt want to lose their base and to matir intermarraige)?
Its not really realistic to expect people who are married to non-jews with either non-jewish kids or jewish kids with a non-jewish husband to expect the jewish spouse to kick out the non-jewish partner and non-jewish kids.
Yeah I know Ezra forced the men to divorce their non-jewish wives, but thats not going to happen today.
And even though the Chreadim control marriage, if someone doesnt want to obey their rules, they just go to Cyprus and you have not accomplished anything
And what about people who were already married for years, you cant deport them
I dont think its legal to deport a national of your country. True this is not the torah law, but right now you cannot create a stateless person.
“As for Cyprus, they can easily solve that by not recognizing those marriages”
By ruling that foreign marriages don’t count? A policy like that would also not recognize your marriage either. And if you want to make a complicated bunch of rules to determine which are valid and which aren’t, either people will figure out how to game the system or just live in (more) sin.
At this moment in time, Israel is not a torah state. When Moshiach comes hopefully that will change, but we must deal with the present and not the future.
So you and Lipman feel that the answer to Jews marrying non Jews is to make a fake geirus?
Genius.
So what have you resolved?
And how can a non religious government, an anti religious government for that matter, make a determination who is Jewish? That is the utmost of a religious decision.
Its really like anything else in the current situtation that is against the torah, How does a frum person run the government over non frum people.
Issues like shabbas buses, Toeivah Parades , Treif food , Army issues etc will constantly come up and you have to decide how to balance the Torah and the belifes of people who disagree. Once Moshaiach comes, thats different , but he is not here and you have to govern now. Forcing torah laws will not work and likely backfire.
Many choose not to put themselves in this position, he did .
The problem is A Jewish person falls in love with a Half or quarter jew who is not Halachically jewish. How do you solve the problem
They either ask you to convert the non-jewish partner or they will go to Cyprus and get married anyway. Currenntly 1/3 of all marriages in Israel occur in Cyprus.
papa says to deport them or dont let them back in, As the law stands without Moshiach this is not possible. So you must let them back in the country now.
Anyone have any real suggestions how to solve the problem.
And how can a non religious government, an anti religious government for that matter, make a determination who is Jewish? That is the utmost of a religious decision.
Score yet another one for separation between church (synagogue) and state.
Issues like shabbas buses, Toeivah Parades , Treif food , Army issues etc will constantly come up and you have to decide how to balance the Torah and the belifes of people who disagree. Once Moshaiach comes, thats different , but he is not here and you have to govern now. Forcing torah laws will not work and likely backfire.
And what you create is a hybrid chazer sticking out its hooves. Better off not starting and not messing with Yiddishkeit to make it fit your “State” and its needs.
Anyone have any real suggestions how to solve the problem.
How about we follow the Torah, and let Hashem take care of the rest?
Again, you haven’t explained how Lipman can suggest changing halachos to accommodate those not keeping halacha.
If they want to get married and are going to convert, then so it the right way. Your comments make no sense at all. None.
And how is Lipman not a rasha for trying to move Israel further away from complying with halacha.
This was not a request of the irreligious, this is his suggestion.
And you are supporting moving Israel further away from halacha as well.
Think about that.
he probably will be the last Charedi to run on a non-Charedi slate
He’s not chareidi. He’s anti chareidi.
And he was proud to be part of a virulently anti religious party.
Good riddance.
Out of curiosity:
Was my post not approved because of content, or because of length?
combination
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