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This thread is dedicated to asking questions about davening.
1) Must a gartel be worn when davening or is a belt sufficient?
2) Is it necessary to start Shemoneh Esrei at precisely the same moment as the rest of the tzibbur? Starting S”E how many moments later is still considered to be the same time as the tzibbur? If you’re behind, what should you do?
3) How close must your feet be together when davening Shemoneh Esrei?
4) How low/high must your voice be when davening Shemoneh Esrei?
5) If starting Shemoneh Esrei simultaneously with the Chazoras HaShatz, must you keep at the same pace as the Shatz in order to say Kedusha with the tzibbur? Can you go faster after Kedusha?
6) How soon after Kedusha is it permissible to sit down? When must you stand up prior to Kedusha?
7) How far after Mashiv Haruach/Vsein Bracha being said incorrectly can you go back without starting over? Yaaleh Veyavo? If you do need to start Shemoneh Esrei from the beginning, should you stop cold where you are and start over?
8) If you lost your place in middle of Shemoneh Esrei (or another part of davening, for that matter), what should you do?
9) What should you do if the Shaliach Tzibbur starts Kedusha while you’re still in middle of Shemoneh Esrei?
10) Is it permissible to learn a Sefer in middle of davening with a minyan?
[Add your own questions below and/or respond to earlier questions.]
Can you make eye contact and do a head nod, to acknowledge someone walking into shul or leaving, while davening?
gartel or belt? Depends if your a chosid or a litvalk.
Lchatchila one should start S’E with the chazon. Bede’eved if one of the other mispsllelim who started with the Chazon is still davening S’E it is considered as tefillah btzibur.
LB- I think you’re not allowed to. It can be very hard not to.
The best is to try to keep your eyes in your Siddur. Once you look up and see someone, it’s very hard not to acknowledge them and it feels rude even if it’s what you are supposed to do.
#3: I don’t understand the question. Aren’t your feet supposed to be right next to each other?
#6: When you finish Shemona Esrei, according to the Mishna Berurah, l’chatchila you are supposed to continue standing where you are until the Chazan starts Kedusha and only then take the 3 steps forward.
I’m a girl and I rarely go to Shul, but is that what most men do? If they do, then there shouldn’t be a question.
A gartel does not have to be worn. Davening mincha before shkia or shachrus before zman tfilah are more important imho
Rules for “V’sein tal u’matar l’vracha”:
1. If you already said Hashem’s Name at the end of “Barech Aleinu”, you don’t go back. You say it in Shema Koleinu instead (Dirshu Siman 117, f.n.#20)
2.If you forget in Shema Koleinu, as long as you didn’t say the word “Retzei” yet, you go back to Shema Koleinu (SA 117/5)
3. If you already said the word “Retzei”, you go back to the beginning of “Bareich Aleinu” (ibid).
4. If you already said the Yihi ratzon at the end of Elokei Netzor, you go back to the beginning of Shemona Esrei (SA & MB 18).
#3. Feet next to each other could mean the following…
*Ankles touching
*Heels and ankles touching
*Feet standing parallel at two fists distance (width of hips)
*Feet standing parallel wider than two fists
*Two outer sides of the feet touching, with one leg crossed in front of the other leg
There is a way to step forward and back in each case, in a spacious shul with roomy seating
1) A belt is sufficient, unless you (or your father) has the minhag to wear a gartel (e.g., Chassidim).
2) Ideally, start at the exact same time. If not, it is still tefilla b’tzibbur [according to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach] if they are (in order of preference)
a – still in the first bracha [Rav Chaim Kanievsky] (like if you came two seconds late)
b – still in the first 3 brachos
c – most of the SE has not yet been said [according to Rav Belsky], like if you came one minute late or something
d – ten people who started on time are still davening SE when you start
e – one person who started on time is still davening SE when you start [Chazon Ish, as confirmed by Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita)
3) You have to stand with your feet together so that it looks like 1 foot, to resemble the malachim. B’dieved, this is not me’akev, and one who davened SE with his feet wide apart will not have to repeat SE.
4) The halacha is that your voice should not be audible to [any] other people besides yourself [when davening with a minyan]. Or at least try not to disturb other people, even if you do raise your voice somewhat. According to the Zohar, your voice should not be audible at all; you should just be forming the words with your lips.
5) Yes, say Kedusha with the chazzan and finish the third bracha (hakeil hakadosh) as well as “shomea tefilla” simultaneously with the chazzan. And bow at Modim.
6) It is preferable to stand for the entire duration of chazoras hashatz. This is not a full obligation (according to Rav Auerbach, it is a stringency), but it is the custom of bnei Torah to stand. If you don’t want to follow this, sit down after responding Amein to the bracha of hakeil hakadosh. Don’t sit before then.
7) Mashiv haruach – If you remember while you are still reciting the 2nd bracha, say it. If you remember before starting the 3rd bracha, say it. Otherwise, no good.
V’sein tal umatar – If you forgot to say it, then mention it during the bracha of Shema Koleinu before the words “Ki ata shomea…” If not, then say it after “shomea tefilla” before uttering the word “Retzei.” If you already uttered the word “Retzei,” go back to Barech aleinu. If you finished SE, repeat from the beginning.
Yaaleh v’yavo, if not said in its proper place [during the bracha of Retzei], can be said if you have not yet uttered the word “Modim.” If the word “Modim” was uttered, stop and return to the beginning of Retzei. If SE was finished, repeat from the beginning, unless it was Maariv of Rosh Chodesh or unless you already davened Mussaf on Rosh Chodesh, in which case Shacharis should not be repeated.
Generally speaking, in some cases, you need to repeat SE from the beginning (like when you forgot mashiv haruach and already began the 3rd bracha). In that case, stop davening where-ever you are. In other cases (like vsein tal umatar), it may not be necessary to go all the way back to the beginning.
8) Machlokes between Chayei Adam and Steipler Gaon – Chayei Adam says you cannot repeat a bracha of SE that you may possibly have already said. Therefore, continue from a bracha that you certainly did not say yet.
Steipler Gaon says all 19 brachos are me’akev one another. Therefore, all 19 brachos must be said even if you are possibly repeating something that you already said.
Other parts of davening – depends. What are you talking about here?
9) Stop your SE and listen with intent to be yotzi Kedusha. Machlokes if you need to listen to the verse beginning Yimloch. After hearing Kedusha [or at least the main parts of Kedusha – which are Kadosh… and Baruch…] keep davening. It is OK to continue davening in between the verses of Kedusha if you desire to do so.
10) Do you mean during chazoras hashatz? Nope. [Rav Chaim Kanievsky and others]
Joseph – Re starting SE late: If you know for sure you can reach Elokai Netzor before the chazzan reaches Kedusha, then you can daven SE now even though you are starting late.
Otherwise, daven with the chazzan during chazaras hashatz so that you get the zechus of answering Kedusha.
In all cases [with few exceptions that we will not get into now], SE must be started immediately after uttering the words ‘Gaal yisrael.’ You cannot pause silently or say something else in between. This applies on a weekday for sure, and possibly also on Shabbos.
lilmod ulelamaid – Re vesein tal umatar 2 – What you wrote is not correct according to any opinion. If you signed off “Baruch ata… shomea tefilla,” you do not c”v go back to Shema Koleinu. Rather, just say the words vsein tal umtar [l’vracha etc.] and then continue with Retzei.
Joseph – don’t sit down. If you did, then obviously you would get back up for Kedusha since Kedusha is said standing.
Re “Head nod” – Depends where in davening you are holding. Certainly not during the first verse of Shema or during SE.
In some cases, you can technically interrupt [to greet other people out of respect or fear]. Nowadays, we don’t do this.
lakewhut – Well, if you are Chassidic [and wear a gartel], you perhaps are not so makpid on davening Mincha before shkia. In any event, putting on a gartel doesn’t take so long, does it?
1) Must a gartel be worn when davening or is a belt sufficient?
Why do you need a belt the elastic of your underwear should be sufficient. However if your father had a custom to wear a gartel you should also wear it.
lilmod ulelamaid # 6 – That is correct. What you wrote is l’chatchila.
If it is hard for whatever reason to remain in place for so long, then at least remain standing in place until the chazzan begins chazaras hashatz. Or, if not that, then wait the amount of time that it takes to walk four amos before stepping back. Which usually you would do anyway if you say the prayer for the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdash after stepping back.
mik 5
A+1 would’ve given pretty much the same answers. thanks for doing the typing
It is good to wear a belt (every day) so that one will be able to recite the blessing of “who girds Israel with strength” when one is reciting the morning blessings. This blessing refers to putting on a belt. Not me’akev, but a good thing to do.
2) Even better: daven in a different minyan where you will be able to start at exactly the same time as everyone else.
To daven with the chazzan is tefilla b’tzibbur according to SOME opinions.
To start when they are still in the 1st bracha, or maybe even the 1st 3 brachas, is probably l’chatchila, though it remains preferable and ideal to start at EXACTLY the same time as everyone else with no delay whatsoever.
Personally, I do not like to daven with the chazzan because I find it distracting to have to keep up, and I like to daven when it is quiet in the room/ beis medrash.
3) Yes. Or one who is too weak to stand.
4) Some poskim hold that way. I believe the Arizal davened this way.
If you did daven this way, you would certainly be yotzi b’dieved.
6) As mentioned, it is the custom of bnei Torah to stand for the entire duration of chazaras hashatz.
8) There is no prohibition to repeat words within a blessing if you are not sure where you are holding and you want to repeat words to make sure that you said all of them. In Shema, every word must be said to be yotzi so in a case of doubt obviously you would go back because you need to be yotzi krias Shema.
9) You would answer the main parts of Kedusha (Kadosh, Baruch, and possibly Yimloch) if you are holding by Elokai Netzor.
Also, if you just finished the 2nd bracha of SE, and the chazzan reached Kedusha, then you would say Kedusha.
10) OK to look into a sefer while waiting for chazzan to finish Yishtabach (and you already finished it).
During leining – in-between the aliyos Rav Moshe zatzal would learn Mishnayos.
(5) Well, if you are davening word-by-word with the chazzan, then obviously you would finish at the same time, and then you would recite Elokai Netzor and step back.
See here for a discussion of what halachos apply when one comes late to davening: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/257544/halachically-speaking-tefilla-btzibur.html
“Lilmod, the people you see with some space between their feet during S”E are wrong?”
I don’t know. I didn’t know anyone does that – that is why I was surprised by the question. I just didn’t think anyone did it, so I didn’t know why anyone was asking. But apparently, there are people who do.
Verbalizing the words silently that not even the ear can hear: Some Poskim rule that one is to verbalize the words in such a quiet tone that even his own ears are unable to hear it. [there it states that one who hears his words is testifying false testimony and lacks belief in G-d]; the Zohar states that one who raises his voice in prayer his prayer is not heard above. Practically, however, the Poskim rule that one is to Daven loud enough for his own ears to hear [Admur the Baal HaTanya 101/2; Alef Hamagen 582/42 in name of Poskim], and the above statement of the Zohar will only take place in the times of Moshiach. [See Torah Or Vayigash 45; Likkutei Sichos of the Lubavitcher Rebbe 35 p. 192]
On RH and YK, there is more room for leniency regarding raising one’s voice during SE, though it is better (and, in fact, obligatory) to be stringent according to kabbalah (and thus one is not to raise his voice while reciting SE on these days).
When saying brachas, are we supposed to be louder than davening?
I like whispering brachas. Some people I noticed are more vocal and deliberate about it. In turn that gives anyone near him the opportunity to say Amen.
But I like mumbling it almost. It’s between me and Hashem and I don’t want to blast out to the world that I am taking my first sip or bite. Is that because I am a woman and it is more modest for me to do it this way?
mik5: “lilmod ulelamaid – Re vesein tal umatar 2 – What you wrote is not correct according to any opinion. If you signed off “Baruch ata… shomea tefilla,” you do not c”v go back to Shema Koleinu. Rather, just say the words vsein tal umtar [l’vracha etc.] and then continue with Retzei.”
Mik5 -thanks for the correction! That was a taus sofrim – I hadn’t realized I had written that until now.
I was trying to make the halachos easier to follow by first writing it simply and just saying what bracha to say it in w/o going into all the specific details (and doing that afterwards in a second post).
I meant to say that as long as you didn’t say “Retzi” you are still considered to be in Shema Koleinu and t/f you should say it there.
Thanks for the correction! You may have prevented a lot of brachos l’vatala.
I will bli neder follow up with all the specific halachos. Please feel free to correct if I make any further mistakes. Thank you!
Halachos of “v’sain tal u’matar l’vracha”:
1. If you remember before “u’varech shenoseinu” in Birchas hashanim: Say it where you are and continue from there.
2. If you already started “uvarech shenoseinu” but didn’t say Hashem’s Name yet: GO BACK to “v’sein tal umatar l’vracha” and continue with the words that come after that.
3. Once you said Hashem’s Name, say it in Shema Koleinu.
4. If you remember right after Hashem’s Name, it is better not to say lamdeini chukecha and go back, since you have the option of saying it in shema koleinu (unlike mashiv haruach which CANNNOT be said in shema koleinu)
5. If you forget in Shema koleinu, but you did not say Hashem’s Name yet, you should say it then. I think that in this case, you should GO BACK and continue with “ki Atah shomeiah”. The MB does not specify clearly but it is mashma from other things he says (the general rule being that you have to have a chasima m’ain chasima). If anyone knows where it is stated clearly, please let me know. It could be that he just considers it to be obvious from s”k 19.
6. If he had just said Hashem’s Name at the end of shema koleinu but not gone further, he should say “lamdeini chukecha” and continue with “ki Atah Shomeiah”.
7. If he said at least one word after Hashem’s Name but did not start Retzi yet, he should say it in between the two brachos of shema koleinu and retzei (since he is still considered to be in the middle of shema koleinu) and continue with Retzei.
8. If he started Retzei but did not yet finish the “yihiyu l’ratzon” at the end of Elokei netzor, he should go back to “Bareich Aleinu” (I assume that if he said Hashem’s Name at the end of the “yihiyu l’ratzon”, he should finish the passuk first).
9. If he finished the “yihiyu l’ratzon at the end of “Elokai netzor” he should go back to the beginning of Shemona Esrei.
10. If he finished the “yihiyu l’ratzon” at the end of Elokei netzor but it is ‘toch k’dei dibbur” (the amount of time it takes to say “Shalom aleichem Rabi’), he should still go back to “bareich aleinu”.
11. These halachos stay the same whether or not he also says the “y’hiyu l’ratzon” before Elokei netzor.
If I made any more taus sofrim’s or mistakes, please feel free to let me know. Thanks!
ps: sources to follow, bli neder.
What is curious about the opening post is that all these questions have existed for hundreds – or perhaps thousands – of years. They all have been answered by many rabbis, and many of the answers are even published in various books. If you seriously want answers to these questions, you should ask your own rav. And if you don’t like his answer, you are, of course, free to find other ravs, until you get one who gives the answers you want.
But we must remember that what we seek in davening is not what the ravs want, but what Hashem wants.
Apparently, he was trying to be “mezakeh harabim” both by having us look up the answers and by having people who are reading or posting in the CR be able to be oseik baTorah while doing so instead of (potentially) being a moshav leitzim.
Be careful – people might start believing you. You have been known to have multiple usernames in the past.
Although the fact that I’m in EY should make it impossible for anyone to think I’m someone who is not. I don’t know if the moderators can tell from the IP address, but the Shabbos times should make it obvious.
We can tell from IP addresses, but that can be masked. The Shabbos times are a giveaway. The only way LU and Joseph could be the same poster would be if there were posts posted on Shabbos. -100
In any case, I did appreciate the opportunity to look up the halachos and write them down – it helps me to remember them, and it gives me an opportunity to actually be doing something useful while I’m taking a break. Which is a good thing since I spend more time taking breaks than I do working.
Huju, I’m always the first (or one of the first) to tell someone to contact their LOR when they ask a shayla on the CR instead of calling their Rav.
In this case, t didn’t look like the OP was stuck in middle of Shmoneh Esrei, took out his smart phone, and posted here for an answer so he could finish davening. Anyway, it doesn’t look like he could have had ALL those questions at the same moment.
It’s apparent this was posted for discussion, and based on the poster that I now noticed answered you before I did, I’m not the only one who found it interesting.
“The only way LU and Joseph could be the same poster would be if there were posts posted on Shabbos. -100”
Chas v’shalom! I didn’t even want to mention the possibility that a Yid would post on Shabbos. I suppose I could be a goy, but I think it would be pretty hard to find a goy who is as knowledgeable as I am (or Joseph is).
Of course I am not suggesting it Chas V’shalom. Aderaba, I am considering it an ironclad proof that the two of you are separate posters. -100
Well excuse me if I am being too presumptious LU, but in the US it appeared to me as though part of your break times were working into the typical sleep time. If so, your breaks would otherwise be spent sleeping, which could balance out with work hours.
It is good to say a bracha out loud so that other people will have the merit of answering Amein. You get two mitzvos: (1) reciting a bracha and (2) loving a fellow Jew – since you enable someone else to fulfill the mitzvah of answering Amein.
A bracha to which Amein was answered is a better bracha than one to which Amein was not answered.
There is a famous story about Reb Chaim Volozhner who was moser nefesh not to drink water until someone came to his house to say Amein, and G-d did a miracle for him by sending him an angel in the guise of one of his students.
Having said that, it is not modest behavior for an isha to say a bracha loudly just so that a man will answer Amein. If she is together with other ladies, then that’s fine.
The minhag in Chabad is to bless quietly, since there is an opinion that one is yotzi a bracha through hearing it and saying Amein even if the person blessing did not have in mind to be motzi the person listening. Thus, the listener will be unable to recite his own bracha later, since he was already yotzi according to this opinion.
lilmod ulelamaid – Regarding a person who uttered the name of G-d in the blessing of Shema Koleinu and subsequently reminded himself that he neglected to pray for dew and rain, it is a machlokes between the Chofetz Chaim and HaGaon HaRav Moshe Feinstein zecher tzaddik l’vracha:
LB- I’ve been working at night (mainly doing projects for online courses I’m taking) and the only way I can keep myself going is by taking constant breaks. It’s the only way I get my work done, so it actually is efficient even if it doesn’t seem like it. Even when I work during the day, I need a lot of breaks, but more so at night.
During the day, there are a lot of things I can do besides the CR if I need a break, but there’s not much I can do at night. Or I’m just less in the mood to do anything.
Despite (or because of) all my time in the CR, I actually am making a lot of progress Boruch Hashem. Maybe it’s in the zchus of my being “oseik baTorah while in the CR” that Hashem didn’t let my breaks interfere with my getting my work done.
Mik5: “lilmod ulelamaid – Regarding a person who uttered the name of G-d in the blessing of Shema Koleinu and subsequently reminded himself that he neglected to pray for dew and rain, it is a machlokes between the Chofetz Chaim and HaGaon HaRav Moshe Feinstein zecher tzaddik l’vracha”
Thanks for the info. I wasn’t aware of that. I will have to look it up when I have a chance.
All my information came from the Mishna B’rurah and Dirshu notes. I had been told that I can rely on Dirshu for the contemporary opinions and chilukei deios on the MB. And I don’t think he mentioned this.
After I read your post, it occurred to me that I don’t think he quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein very much if at all. Since he lives in EY, it’s possible that he sticks with the Israeli Poskim. But since I teach Americans, I should try to find out, if possible, what the American Poskim (such as Rav Moshe, Zatsal) say.
Thank you for making me aware of that fact.
In any event, it is probably fairly safe to assume that none of the Israeli Poskim are choleik on the MB, since R’ Dirshu would probably have brought it down if it were the case.
If one is davening shemoneh esrai (Nusach Ashkenaz) with the chazan, what does he say at the end of kedusha? Does he say l’dor va’dor like the chazan, or does he say atoh kodosh?
I would assume he says l’dor va’dor, because it’s part of kedusha, which is like a whole bracha that replaces the brocho atoh kodosh.
Just wondering if anyone else has any insight.
Meno: He says whatever the chazan is saying.
LU: I am currently learning with the Dirshu Mishna Berurah and he quotes the Igros Moshe extensively. However, Rabbi Hoffman in his article quotes on the issue of Vsein Tal Umatar “Unless you are a talmid of Rav Moshe, most people follow the Mishna Brurah.”
This is not the only place where “hamon am” does not follow R’ Moshe. One of the other places is the haftorah for Shabbos Shuva where R’ Moshe writes that one only should say the Haftorah from Hoshea and not add on from the other neviim as most kehillos do.
Iacisrmma – thanks for clarifying. It’s good to know that I can continue being “someich” on R’ Dirshu!
I’m just wondering – where does Rav Hoffman have articles? Is there something I should be getting or seeing that I’m not?
LU: Rabbi Hoffman writes articles that are printed in the 5 Towns Jewish Times and someone uploads them to YWN.
Thanks iacisrmma! Good to know about! I’ll have to look out for them.
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