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  • #1268077

    Francorachel3
    Participant

    problem going on in crown heights Brooklyn girls’ Yeshiva, teachers on strike, no school in weeks! What can be done?

    #1268754

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    post in the Coffee Room – I’m sure the posters in the Coffee Room have the solution to this problem!

    #1268753

    Joseph
    Participant

    Hire new teachers. There’s so many girls chalishing for a teacher’s job.

    #1268749

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    Hire people in the Coffee Room to teach the classes.

    #1268759

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s awful.
    Hopefully, they can raise money to pay their salaries and resume classes. (Am I right to assume that’s the issue?)

    I believe R’ Moshe has a teshuvah about rebbeim striking, but the issues aren’t the same in a girls’ school.

    #1268775

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if the issues 5are else take the job? , why would someone e

    #1268776

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The girls chalishing for a teacher’s job aren’t the ones qualified for the position. Ideally, a girls’ glass should be taught by a woman.

    #1268790

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Daas Yochid:
    If the reason the rabbonim and morim in this school are striking has to do with their not being paid or that their salaries are not enough to live on, why would it make a difference if their talmidim are boys or girls?? Teachers are working to support their families and the gender of their students doesn’t change that economicreality.

    #1268854

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s a chiyuv for boys to learn Torah.

    #1268871

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There’s also a chiyuv to pay your employees.

    #1268878

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can’t pay if you don’t have money.

    Also, your comment is gender neutral.

    #1268898

    Joseph
    Participant

    If someone abrogates their chiyuv to pay your salary, that doesn’t abrogate your chiyuv to teach Torah.

    #1268899

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    It all comes along with the kollel mentality. People sit and learn and don’t make enough money to support their families, and we’re starting to see now the effect of that, that now schools don’t have enough money to pay Rebbeim (it should be noted that going into harbatzas Torah is considered differently than sitting and learning oneself), and then they shut down. Where is this really getting us, when our sons don’t have a school to go to because of our learning?

    (I mean no disrespect to those sitting and learning, it’s a beautiful, and amazing thing that most people simply could not make the sacrifice to do, but I disagree with the practicality of it. It’s not a sustainable system; The Rambam said one should not be hitztarech al haBrios, and even Hillel HaZaken and the Chofetz Chaim in our times earned themselves a living.)

    #1268900

    Joseph
    Participant

    *Someone* teaching the girls is better than *no one* teaching the girls. Even if the someone is less qualified than the no one.

    #1268907

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    You wouldn’t agree that improper hashkafah is better than no hashkafah?

    #1268914

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If one is teaching at yeshiva for boys and has not been paid or is paid a below-market salary, there is no chiuv for the rebbeim at that yeshiva to continue working without pay and forego taking another job through which they can feed their own families. That may mean a position in chinuch at another yeshiva or any other position that will provide the requisite compensation. Ifs up to the parents of the talmidim at that first yeshiva to assure that hey pay their tuition so that the teachers are paid on time or if not, to transfer their bochurim to another yeshiva. The obligation on chinuch is on the parents; the teachers are not obligated to work without pay.

    #1268915

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If one is teaching at yeshiva for boys and has not been paid or is paid a below-market salary, there is no chiuv for the rebbeim at that yeshiva to continue working without pay and forego taking another job through which they can feed their own families. That may mean a position in chinuch at another yeshiva or any other position that will provide the requisite compensation. Ifs up to the parents of the talmidim at that first yeshiva to assure that hey pay their tuition so that the teachers are paid on time or if not, to transfer their bochurim to another yeshiva. The obligation on chinuch and limud torah is on the parents; the teachers are not obligated to work without pay.

    #1268951

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    From a report on CrownHeights.info, it looks like they’re back in school today.

    The Wolf

    #1268959

    Chaver
    Participant

    FuturePOTus you imply that the schools that don’t pay their teachers are the schools that the parents are learning in Kollel. To the best of my knowledge their are schools that most of the parents work and the schools still can not pay their teachers.

    #1269033

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hiring another teacher doesn’t solve the problem anyway.

    #1269082

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Future POTUS, unless I misunderstood, the implication of your post is that the difficulty some schools have in meeting payroll requirements is a result of the growing number of families where the father is “in learning.” The fact is that schools have had this problem since time immemorial, and in fact the problem is getting smaller, both in terms of Rebbeim’s salary, and in terms of Rebbeim actually getting paid. I am happy to note that the (out of town) school in which I am fortunate enough to be a Rebbe has not been late with a single paycheck in at least five years (although the salary is not quite up to par with in town schools).

    Gadolhadorah, Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked this exact question. His ruling was that, in fact, a Rebbe is not precluded from taking a job somewhere else. However, as long as he is not employed elsewhere, he is required to teach even when not getting paid. This is because, since it is prohibited to get paid for teaching Torah, a Rebbe’s salary is classified as “Schar Batalah,” meaning he is getting paid not to take another job. Once otherwise unoccupied, the responsibility to teach devolves naturally upon him. Therefore, a Rebbe is free to take a job elsewhere, but he is not allowed to strike.

    #1269240

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    @catchyourself I understand your point, but I believe we need to create a sustainable system. I heard a figure that to fully educate a child for the next generation it’s expected to cost $2,000,000 PER child!!!! That’s an outrageous figure, and something needs to be done about this. With more and more people going into full time learning (not saying harbatzas Torah), it cannot be helping the matter.

    #1269262

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I heard a figure that to fully educate a child for the next generation it’s expected to cost $2,000,000 PER child!!!!

    How do get to those numbers? (Sorry, but “I heard” isn’t a great source for something which doesn’t seem to make sense.)

    #1269271

    Meno
    Participant

    How do get to those numbers?

    Well the average cost to educate a child for a year is $40K, and the average child is in school for approximately 50 years, so yeah, $2,000,000 sounds about right.

    #1269275

    5ish
    Participant

    Whether or not the school arranged to get the girls back to school does not change the fact that they owe teachers months of back pay. Having people work and not paying them is stealing.

    #1269286

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That is way too harsh. It’s not as if they have the money and are intentionally withholding it.

    #1269283

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You have to send them to the moon to learn astronomy.

    #1269292

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not unheard of for schools to send kids home if they don’t pay tuition.

    #1269284

    blubluh
    Participant

    One of the factors that impacts on the amount of money available to pay teachers is the ration of students per teacher. A larger class size can reduce the salary burden on the school, but at the expense of reduced individual attention to the students. It also presupposes that the classrooms are spacious enough to accommodate additional students.

    Of course, while some students need less attention and direction than others, determining what’s best for a particular student ahead of time is a tough challenge for both educators and parents alike.

    In addition to class size, consolidating the number of educational institutions competing for funds in the same community can also help (economies of scale), but that opens up a Pandora’s box of issues like different hashkafos and backgrounds and the location and size of school buildings.

    Other possibilities include reaching out to the surrounding community for dependable volunteer labor, perhaps for cooking and serving meals, grounds-keeping, tutoring, chaperoning school trips, office work, etc.) not all that different from the way many synagogues survive.

    #1269302

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    I heard it from a respected speaker who said the number at the Torah U’Mesorah President’s Conference this year. Anyone else there should be able to testify to the number. It was said about the next generation, not this one.

    #1269303

    FuturePOTUS
    Participant

    Jogging my memory, I apologize, it could be that the figure mentioned was for a family of four. I retract the number, but you get the idea. We need a monetary system that works if we want our kids to be educated.

    #1269306

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ok, let’s do the math. $500k per child. Divide that by 15 years of schooling (nursery, kindergarten, pre 1-A, 1-12) and you get >$33,000 annually per kid. Is that reflecting expected inflation? Presumably, salaries will also go up. I’m not sure what the point of the numbers is.

    #1269309

    Meno
    Participant

    Hey what was wrong with my math?

    #1269314

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You forgot PEMDAS. Maybe next time don’t do math while jogging.

    #1269434

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    What no one has mentioned is that the parents of these girls who have not been in school could be charged with ‘Education Neglect’ and have issues with Child Protective Services. These students not receiving an education should have been enrolled in another school. The government will say that if you can not find a private school that is acceptable you must enroll in public school or have an approved home schooling plan. Just to keep them home long term is NOT the answer.

    #1269458

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meh. Nobody’s getting into hot water for their kids’ school being closed for a few weeks.

    #1269513

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ” Rambam said one should not be hitztarech al haBrios, and even Hillel HaZaken and the Chofetz Chaim in our times earned themselves a living.”

    We don’t posken according to the Rambam; we posken according to what the Gedolim of our times (who know how to learn and apply the Rishonim) say. Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal has a teshuva in which he speaks out very harshly against people who don’t go to Kollel because they don’t want to take money from the tzibur.

    #1269514

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Apparently, it wasn’t so long-term. I am assuming that they were assuming (correctly so) that the problem would be resolved soon and therefore it wouldn’t be in their childrens’ best interests to try to find another school for them.

    If it had lasted a really long time, I’m sure they would have tried to find another school. I’m also sure that it would have been really difficult or impossible to find places in other schools for all the girls (or at least it would have taken some time).

    #1269516

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Part of the problem could be inept administration and too trusting of claims of poverty. My father in law served on the tuition committee of a yeshiva decades ago. He was sickened by the stories he heard and the schemes. One couple came dresses in shmattas to prove they needed a reduction. When asked for their tax return they said their son’s elementary yeshiva never did. Turns out the return said they were making 6 figures and could afford full tuition. .

    #1269524

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Welcome to Family Court and Custody battles:

    Father seeks emergency custody of the daughters who are in the custodial custody of the mother.
    Judge asks mother: “when was the last time your daughters were in school on a regular basis?”
    Mother: “Your honor, the teachers have been on strike and we have no idea when they’ll return. The scholl was behind on payroll.”
    Judge: Why haven’t you enrolled them elsewhere?
    Mother: I can’t get them into another school midyear.
    Father’s Attorney: “Your honor, that’s educational neglect” There’s plenty of room in the schools where the father lives. We seek immediate physical custody for the remainder of the school year.
    Judge: Motion Granted, the minor children are to be delivered to the father’s custody and enrolled in his neighborhood school within 48 hours.’
    Gavel Pounds, Mother cries, Father and attorney smile.
    I have practiced family law for many decades, and scenes like this do happen. I also have had to defend parents against Dept of Children and Family actions to remove from the home children not attending school regularly.

    #1269546

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    CT – 1. you know about these stories because you are a lawyer. That doesn’t mean that they happen very often relative to the numbers of kids who are out of school for a few days.
    2. I also wonder how long the kids were out of school in your examples. It may have been more than a few days.
    3. For the few parents in those situations (those that are divorced, AND the other parent is trying to get custody, AND the other parent is the type to go to a goyish court AND there is a real concern that he will be able to bring the courtcase before the strike is over), they can find another school meanwhile.
    4. If anyone is really in that situation, they could have the same problem if the kids were sick or pretending to be sick and/or refusing to go to school for a few days, which is not uncommon in a divorce situation.

    #1269565

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Could be. However, I often hear complaints that the schools are too demanding, often asking for documents verifying reported income which also contain private information.

    The schools often find themselves in a no win situation.

    #1269580

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe there are also other factors involved in some cases. Even though it may seem like someone is earning a lot of money, there could be exorbitant expenses that they can’t discuss. For example, maybe someone in the family has serious psychological problems which require expensive treatment or someone may be in some kind of expensive rehab, etc.

    #1269594

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “This reply was modified 29 minutes ago by DaasYochid. Reason: Typo”

    when you edit your own post, you can give a reason?? How do you do that? That is cool! (and prevents unnecessary speculation).

    #1269622

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Lilmod………..
    response to #1& #2
    Please go back and read the original post, these girls have not been in school for weeks, not a few days
    #3 Motions for changes in custody in Family Court can usually be heard the same day they are filed (Ex-Parte Motion) or next business day with both parties present. Because the scenario I laid out states the children have been out of school, no set date exists for their return and no alternate school has been chosen AND the father only seeks physical custody until the end of the school year, the motion will be viewed as an emergency and most Judges would hear it ex-parte without the mother having to be present. It would take almost no effort to have a case worker from DCF testify that the children are not receiving a proper education.
    #4 is solved with a doctor’s note, AGAIN the OP states weeks, not a few days.

    Remember, I don’t claim to be an expert on all types of law, and always preface my opinions that I practice here in Connecticut (but am also licensed in Massachusetts and Florida, BUT I have practiced Family Law (Marriage, divorce, adoption, custody, wills and trusts) for almost 40 years and have also taught these courses as an adjunct professor in law school.

    The fact that a Frum couple doesn’t usually use the civil courts doesn’t mean that a social services agency might not get involved and do so.

    #1269634

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    1. (points #1 &2) “Please go back and read the original post, these girls have not been in school for weeks, not a few days”
    sorry, my bad. But all it changes is that I would have written “a few weeks” instead of a few days (which I almost did. I actually wrote ” a few days” thinking that it might be a few weeks – a few weeks is also a few days). I think I agree with DY on this. Granted, I’m not sure what we mean by “a few weeks” but I was assuming something like 3 or 4 weeks and not 20 or 30.

    2. (point #3): My main point is that there are few people in this situation.

    3. “#4 is solved with a doctor’s note,”. No, only if the kids are really sick. After my parents got divorced and my mother had to go to work and I had to be in charge of getting the kids to school, they often pretended they were sick so they wouldn’t have to go to school, because they knew I couldn’t force them to go. I think my sister even admitted years later that she was just pretended.

    #1269732

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I remember one time a school wanted copies of my bank statements. I refused.

    I didn’t have a problem with giving them my tax returns and bank balances, but not the statements – there is too much personal information there. I don’t need them knowing which doctors I visit or other sensitive personal info that may be in there.

    The Wolf

    #1269912

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, they requested the statements because you asked for a needs based discount?

    #1270139

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes, it was.

    And, yes, I know you’re going to say that in such situations I have no rights and either accept it or refuse.

    However, I still feel that even in some circumstances, there is a limit to what an institution should be allowed to ask for. I even asked them if I could block out the names of doctors, and was told no. Now, we’re talking about co-pays of $20 or $30 here, not extravagant amounts. Nonetheless, I was told no.

    I’m sorry… even if you are providing charity to someone, you have no right to demand personal medical information.

    The Wolf

    #1270178

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf, I definitely both agree with you and sympathize with you! and I’m sure that Joseph does too.

    It seems that my supposition was correct.

    To be “dan l’kaf zchus” the school, they probably have a reason for the policy – maybe the things that were mentioned by other posters, that they have a lot of financial issues and need to make sure that people really need the discount.

    It sounds like this whole topic is very complicated and it would be nice if someone could come up with a solution. But maybe it’s one of those issues that has no solution (other than davening of course).

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