Shaos Zemanios

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  • #612860
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Was there an accurate way to tell time in the Talmudic Era as it pertains to Shaos Zemanios?

    #1016569
    Sam2
    Participant

    You mean a sundial?

    #1016570

    Yes. Ayin gemara rosh hashana 13a “kol midas chachomim kach hu”

    #1016571
    Logician
    Participant

    For shaos zemanios you just need to know what percentage of the day has passed (ok, that depends on when you start alos/netz and stop shkiah/tzeis), I would think that would be relatively simple.

    And its clear in the gemara that they used these zmanim, referred to events occurring at specific hours of the day etc. so…

    #1016572
    Sam2
    Participant

    Although the Sugya in the beginning of Pesachim should be a Ra’aya that they didn’t have anything so precise. Or, at the very least, you were never expected to be able to have access to it.

    #1016573
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I mean how did they accurately know at any given point of day what time it was with the nafka mina being shaos zmanios e.g. zman krias shema, plag hamincha etc.

    #1016574
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I mean how did they accurately know at any given point of day what time it was with the nafka mina being shaos zmanios e.g. zman krias shema, plag hamincha etc.

    Today, we tend not to take too much notice of astronomical phenomena (unless you have an interest in it). Back in the days before clocks, however, people had a much greater awareness of it. Most people were probably aware of the sun’s path across the sky and could judge just how far along it was at any particular time of the day.

    If you know the path the sun is going to take, then it’s no great feat to know when it’s 1/4 of the way there (i.e. 3 hours) or at high noon (chatzos), etc.

    Likewise, devices such as sundials could also provide similar information.

    The Wolf

    #1016575

    “If you know the path the sun is going to take, then it’s no great feat to know when it’s 1/4 of the way there (i.e. 3 hours) or at high noon (chatzos), etc.” in fact I remember a mishna somewhere that said that in those days people were able to tell the time of the sun within 2 hours

    #1016576
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If they could accurately measure time then I have a follow up question. R’ Eliezer gives simanim for the three periods of night. The Gemara asks whether the simanim are for the beginning of the periods or the end of the periods. If it’s for the beginning, we don’t need a siman for the first one because we know that it’s when the night starts. If it’s for the end then we don’t need a siman for the last one because we know that it’s when the morning starts. The Gemara answers that the simanim were for the end of the first, the beginning of the last, and the middle of the middle. If there was an accurate way to tell time, we wouldn’t need a siman for the middle of the middle because it’s exactly halfway between the beginning of the first and the end of the second.

    #1016577
    Sam2
    Participant

    Maybe they could tell time during the day (via the Sun) and not at night?

    #1016578
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Maybe they could tell time during the day (via the Sun) and not at night?”

    That’s what I was forced to conclude as well for the time being.

    #1016579
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If there was an accurate way to tell time, we wouldn’t need a siman for the middle of the middle because it’s exactly halfway between the beginning of the first and the end of the second.

    Because the sun is not visible at night. And the night (unlike the day WRT the Sun) cannot be defined by using the Moon.

    The Wolf

    #1016580
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And the night (unlike the day WRT the Sun) cannot be defined by using the Moon.

    I guess you mean, not easily.

    Sam, the Gemara in Pesachim actually suggests that it is possible tobe exact. According to one view, Rebbi Meir holds that people don’t make any mistake at all and Rebbi Yehuda allows for a half hour. But even according to the most allowing view, it is merely saying that it is possible to make the mistake, but not that it is expected.

    #1016581
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Well the Gemara does conclude that Moshe and Dovid knew exactly when chatzos was so apparently it was possible to “tell time” at night, unless Moshe and Dovid had some spiritual way of knowing. However, before reaching this conclusion the Gemara suggested that Moshe did not know when chatzos was but Dovid did because the wind would blow his harp at chatzos.

    #1016582
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I guess you mean, not easily.

    No, I meant not at all. We pretty much define the day by the sun — sunrise to sunset. The night, however, cannot be defined as moonrise to moonset.

    The Wolf

    #1016583
    Participant

    The way to accurately tell time at night is with star charts, almanac, and astrolabe. I don’t think the general population had easy access to these items.

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