Sheker – Lying in Halacha

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  • #597532

    shlishi
    Member

    Where in halacha is it written that it is assur to lie?

    When making shalom (peace) is it permissible to lie for that purpose? In what way? Where in halacha is it written that it is permissible to lie for that purpose? What are other examples where lying is permissible?

    #1081568

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Midvar sheker tirchak.

    #1081570

    apushatayid
    Participant

    From the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch…..

    ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????

    This is the relevant portion of sif kattan Aleph.

    .?????? ???????????? ????? ??? ????? ?????,

    ????? ????? ???? ???,

    #1081571

    MichaelC
    Member

    In Bava Metzia it states 3 circumstances in which you are allowed to lie.

    It states in Mishnah Kilayim you can lie to avoid taxation that is over the limit.

    #1081572

    in Bava Metzia it states 3 reasons that a TALMID CHOCHOM is allowed to lie.

    #1081573

    aimhabonim
    Participant

    “Chosmo shel Hakodesh Boruch Hu emes”. We are supposed to emulate Hashem’s ways.

    #1081574

    on the ball
    Participant

    You are simply allowed to lie ‘mipnei hashalom’ – if a more peaceful outcome will result.

    There are many examples in the Torah and Shas. One is when Hashem said to Soroh that Avraham had exclaimed that HE was too old to have children when in fact he had said that Soroh was too old.

    #1081575

    tobg
    Member

    does the gemorah say “sholom” or “sholom bais”? I really dont remember but i think it would make a big difference.

    #1081576

    on the ball
    Participant

    not shalom bayis davka – just shalom.

    Another example is in the gemara betzah daf 20 – Hillel Hazaken lied about the korban he was bringing to avoid a confrontation with Shamai’s students.

    #1081577

    tobg
    Member

    then maybe Rashi there mentions shalom bayis and i dont think halacha allows it for any type of peace (e.g. peace in yeretz yisroel?)

    #1081578

    shlishi
    Member

    What are the 3 circumstances stated in Bava Metzia that a talmid chochom is permitted to lie?

    And under what circumstances does Mishnah Kilayim state you can lie to avoid taxation that is over the limit? What does “over the limit” entail?

    #1081579

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you are allowed to lie because of shalom, does that mean you can lie to prevent someone from being mad at you?

    Ex:

    Wife- Why were you home late?

    Truth- At casino, gambling drinking and smoking.

    Me- My chavrusa’s car broke down and I was helping him.

    Why not? You would be able to if you were the chavrusa and the wife asked you where her husband was, right?

    #1081580

    shein
    Member

    So lying to your wife to keep shalom falls under the general heter to lie for shalom? Or specifically why not?

    #1081581

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I always thought that when chazal tell us that one need not be 100% truthful to maintain shalom, it was to maintain shalom between others. For example, in order to maintain shalom between avram and sara, the ribbono shel olam changed saras statement when speaking to avram. Or, as chazal tell us, Aaron Hakohen would go to each party and tell them the other party is sorry and wants to make up, again, for the sake of shalom between people. Simply lying to my wife where I’ve been so that I can weasel out of some housework and maintain shalom with my wife, is lying, not maintaining shalom. Then again, thats what I thought, but I really have no firm basis or proof for it.

    #1081582

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Simply lying to my wife where I’ve been so that I can weasel out of some housework and maintain shalom with my wife, is lying, not maintaining shalom.

    Since you had the option to do the housework, you didn’t lie for shalom, you lied to get out of housework.

    The fallacy with lying to your wife to maintain shalom, such as in pba’s case, is that sheker ein lo raglayim, and ultimately, when she finds out, not only will she be upset at what you did, she’ll be even more upset that you lied to her. The best way to maintain shalom (besides not getting involved in these bad activities to begin with) would be to own up, and ask her to help you get the help you need.

    #1081583

    apushatayid
    Participant

    DY. I’m not sure if you are agreeing, disagreeing or strengthening what I wrote.

    #1081584

    Joseph
    Member

    bump

    #1081585

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apushatayid, probably agreeing, but ?? ?????.

    #1081586

    Joseph
    Member

    apy: Having thoroughly considered it for over three years and having finally responded, DY would appreciate the courtesy of a reply.

    #1081587

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    In another three years.

    #1081588

    Midvar sheker tirchuk is only a lav in a beis din setting. Its not so Pashut just stam lying

    #1081589

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Midvar sheker tirchuk is only a lav in a beis din setting. Its not so Pashut just stam lying

    I’d love to hear your source for that. I would have assumed that “Lo Sa’aneh” would cover a judicial setting.

    And even if you’re correct, what about “Lo S’shakaru?”

    The Wolf

    #1081590

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    anyone hear of r dessler that says lying for shalom which is muttar is saying the truth?

    #1081591

    🐈 Rand0m3x 🐈
    Participant

    It’s in the first volume of Michtav Me’Eliyahu. The concept is

    that “emes” is not “truth,” but whatever furthers the Will of Hashem.

    Thus, in a situation where it is proper to say an untruth, one is

    still saying the “emes” (but not, of course, the “truth”).

    #1081592

    🐈 Rand0m3x 🐈
    Participant

    Anyone hear of Yaakov Avinu having the power that whatever he said would be true? (This does not seem logically possible,

    but someone once said something along those lines to me…)

    #1081593

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    than-x

    #1081594

    interjection
    Participant

    anyone hear of r dessler that says lying for shalom which is muttar is saying the truth?

    These are probably the lies he was referring to. If your wife makes a supper that you think is disgusting, you can tell her it tasted good. If your husband buys you a present that you hate, and returning it will hurt his feelings, tell him you liked it. If your wife looks ugly, tell her she looks gorgeous. If your husband folded the laundry wrong, tell him he did a great job.

    #1081595

    🐈 Rand0m3x 🐈
    Participant

    “It’s in the first volume of Michtav Me’Eliyahu.”

    More precisely, it’s near the end of the first of the

    three sections, in the piece titled “Emes v’Sheker.”

    #1081596

    Joseph
    Member

    “Lying” for shalom isn’t just “muttar”; it should be done as it is the appropriate thing to do, and telling the “truth” if it would cause the opposite of shalom is inappropriate.

    #1081597

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Like Aharon Hakohein, telling the one guy that the other guy wants to make up with him, and telling the other guy that the first guy wants to make up with him, and letting shalom flow from there.

    #1081598

    🐈 Rand0m3x 🐈
    Participant

    I can’t believe I didn’t get “than-x” until now. [facepalm]

    #1081599

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    ya, lots of my jokes have a time release. ive been busy il try to check it out when i can. thanks again.

    #1359906

    Joseph
    Participant

    RY23, it’s almost three years since DY answered APY’s comment from three years before that. Do you think it’s high time for APY to have the courtesy of now responding to DY?

    #1359926

    Shopping613
    Participant

    Lying reffers to deceit. You can lie, but not decieve. Ex. “There were a billion people at the wedding” – not a sheker. Your message needs to be true, the words can be shifted.

    There’s many halachot on the topic. You don’t have to say personal info, and can lie if someone asks you about it.

    #1362120

    motchah11
    Participant

    What about telling “fish stories?” You know, men vying for the biggest lie.

    #1363245

    gavriel613
    Participant

    See Chofetz Chaim in hakdomo where he counts the Lo Saaseis which can be involved in Loshon Hora, and counts sheker

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