Shhhhh… Don’t say the makots in order, let alone all 10 of them

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  • #1254916

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I heard in a Torah Anytime shiur that the Chasam Sofer says not to say the ten makots and definitely not in order because even saying those words can inflict violence against us. Someone says only seven of them. Chas ‘shalom all 10 and chas v’shalom in the chronological order.

    Then there is a machlokets about why.

    Someone says to say it but the words will go against our enemies. Someone else says to never say it and ever teacher who teaches their students the order of the makots is going to gehenom.

    Have you heard of this?

    Thank you

    #1255021

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Not that it necessarily means anything, but since you asked, I have never heard of this, and apparently neither did any of my teachers, my siblings’ teachers, my kids’ teachers. The baalei haggada don’t seem to hold from it, nor any of the multitudes of generations who have read their nusach at every seder. R’ Yehuda used to abbreviate them, but I was under the impression that it was done as a mnemonic, not to avoid saying them altogether.

    #1255293

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: I know this has been told to you before but please don’t believe everything you hear even if it is on TorahAnytime. I personally have never heard of it, I have never seen a haggada that doesn’t print it in the order it is in the Torah, the mnemonic given by R’ Yehuda (which was engraved on Moshe’s staff) which tells us the order.

    As an example, a speaker once cited that a certain passuk came from Shir Hashirim. After listening to his speeach on TorahAnytime I told him that the passuk was actually in Yeshaya. He told me that he felt terrible as someone else had already contacted him but there was no way to edit the video.

    #1256140

    rebbi1
    Participant

    I saw this year that the reason why Rabbi Yehuda gave his mnemonic was to tell you that this is the correct order as opposed to the way they are written down in sefer tehillim.

    #1257791

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Yes iacisrmma! Wait so maybe you know of it still? Because it is about Rebbe Yehuda.

    Thank you!

    So…

    Today I finished listening to the shiur, which inspired the OP, on TorahAnytime by Rabbi Zvi Zimmerman, “Pesach: Why Did Rebbe Yehuda Feel it Necessary to Give Simanim?”

    ……

    Thoughts/Questions:

    So there are sources that say that they don’t even know if Dam was first or Devar was first?

    And he said something about one source saying that Devar was related to the month of Shevat?

    And that Moshe’s staph had an inscription and they think that he went by that, possibly knowing the next plague before Hashem stated it. Except Locust. That was the only plague that Hashem did not speak to him and Moshe said it himself without cue.

    Thank you!

    And…

    rebbi1: It sounds like you may have heard of this stuff too? Thanks!

    #1257794

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma, while you make an excellent point, I wonder if it should have been made without the Rav’s name. I suppose that the reason you used his name may have been to make your point stronger by showing that even someone so choshuv could make a mistake.

    But it seems to me that the point could have been made by simply writing “a very chashuv Rav”, and there may be a loshon hora/embarrassing someone in public issue by using his name. You might not think it’s a big idea since everyone makes mistakes and it wasn’t a particularly significant one, but I think that most people would not appreciate having their mistakes posted on the internet, no matter how small and insignicant they are.

    #1257802

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    LB, which torahanytime shiur?

    #1257925

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Rabbi Zvi Zimmerman

    *Pesach: Why Did Rebbe Yehuda Feel it Necessary to Give Simanim?*

    #1258153

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: I started listening to Rabbi Zimmerman’s shiur. The first thing I heard was that even he was shocked at what was written in the Chosom Sofer. However, your quote in the OP missed a key point…the Chosom Sofer held that one should not say the makkos in order….EXCEPT Pesach night which is Leil Shimurim.

    #1258155

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: His mistake is already on the internet….anyone who listens to that talk and knows their pesukim hears the mistake.

    #1258212

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LB: I listened to the shiur you mentioned and there are some nuances that I think were missed based on what I heard. The shiur was directed answer the question: Why did R’ Yehuda deem it necessary to create the mnemonic (Simanim)? Rabbi Zimmerman offered eight possible answers, some of which even he was astounded by.

    You wrote:

    Thoughts/Questions:

    So there are sources that say that they don’t even know if Dam was first or Devar was first?

    It’s not that we don’t know what is first. R’ Yehuda who does not attribute anything special to the juxtaposition of Pesukim except in Chumash Devarim, may not hold that Dam is first and Dever fifth even though Dam is written first in Parshas Va’eirah. It is possible (according to R’ Yehuda) that Dever was actually first.
    **************************************

    And he said something about one source saying that Devar was related to the month of Shevat?

    Rabbi Zimmerman stated that according to the medrash that states that the first eight makkos were 1 week of the makkah and 3 weeks for recovery and the first makkah started Rosh Chodesh Tishrei then Dever took place in Shevat.
    ******************************

    And that Moshe’s staph had an inscription and they think that he went by that, possibly knowing the next plague before Hashem stated it. Except Locust. That was the only plague that Hashem did not speak to him and Moshe said it himself without cue.

    Rabbi Zimmerman went through the “lineage” of Moshe’s staff as it was one of the things created on Erev Shabbos Bein Hashmoshes and given to Adam Harishon. According to the Rabbonon all the makkos were written out not just the first letter. Therefore, Moshe knew about the makkah of Arbeh (locust) even without being told. R’ Yehuda stated that only the first letters were written on the staff.

    LB, thanks for stating what shiur it was. A very worthwhile 42 minutes.

    #1258403

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “LU: His mistake is already on the internet….anyone who listens to that talk and knows their pesukim hears the mistake.”

    That wouldn’t help since there are many people who have not listened to his talk.

    #1258410

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apparently, it wasn’t his mistake, but rather, he was misquoted here.

    There’s no way to target correcting a mistake in an online shiur exclusively to those who listened to it, so as long as it’s done respectfully, I don’t see why a mistake can’t be pointed out, l’hagdil Torah.

    #1258424

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Apparently, it wasn’t his mistake, but rather, he was misquoted here.”

    Are we talking about the same thing? I was referring to the example given by Iacisrmma and not to the OP.

    “There’s no way to target correcting a mistake in an online shiur exclusively to those who listened to it, so as long as it’s done respectfully, I don’t see why a mistake can’t be pointed out, l’hagdil Torah.”

    This wasn’t the type of mistake that was necessary to point out. Also, he already discussed it with the speaker and the speaker acknowledged the mistake. If the speaker felt that it was important to post his mistake in the Coffee Room, that should be his decision. He should certainly be asked first if he is okay with it.

    But again, are we talking about the same thing? Are you talking about the OP or about Iacisrmma’s example?

    #1258463

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The OP.

    #1258471

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Well in that case we were talking about different things. And I stand by what I said.

    #1258535

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thank you iacisrmma!!! 🙂

    May you and your family have every blessing and plentiful blessings for only revealed good!!!

    Thanks for answering all of my questions! Wow. You listened to the shiur, filled in my blanks, and then thanked me for informing you of the shiur ~ I’m so grateful and awed that you helped 🙂

    (Yays)

    #1260574

    If the website has a place for comments, you can type corrections there.

    #1260599

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Randomex, that’s a good point, but I think it’s better to tell the Rav privately and let him decide if it was really a mistake and how he should go about correcting it, especially if it’s not an important mistake.

    If it’s an important mistake and he has a way to correct it, but deliberately doesn’t do so, then you may be right.

    In this case, it sounds like he had no way to correct it, and in any case, it wasn’t an important mistake (in the sense that it would not lead to someone to an incorrect hashkafa or halacha).

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