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I don’t understand why it’s a problem for the boy’s mother to want the best possible girl for her son. How is that unreasonable?
The problem is that the mother doesn’t necessarily know what her son wants.
“How is that unreasonable? “
“The problem is that the mother doesn’t necessarily know what her son wants. “
She might not know what he needs either. She might not even know what she wants. Kind of like a kid in a candy shop. “this looks good… wait… maybe this… maybe this….”
“I don’t understand why it’s a problem for the boy’s mother to want the best possible girl for her son. How is that unreasonable?”
Most mothers probably are solely interested in the best interests of their son.
However there are some mothers who probably envision having a certain type of girl as a daughter in law and will be biased towards that type.
For example if a mother and her daughters tend to dress “trendy” the mother might be uncomfortable or embarassed to have a daughter in law who dresses out of style. She might be self conscious to take her dil to shul with her etc..
Her son might not care at all whether his wife will wear the latest styles or not.
Boys and their mothers want pretty girls because a pretty girl equals a healthy girl, which means good genes to pass on to their offspring. Most people are not even aware that this is the underlying reason that boys look for a pretty girl.
“The parents often have a better idea what the child needs than the child. And the child often understands and accepts that and wants the parents to be directly involved. “
I assume that’s true often, but not always. Parents can also be subjective, looking at a shidduch for all the same reasons as a child, good or bad.
“Boys and their mothers want pretty girls because a pretty girl equals a healthy girl, which means good genes to pass on to their offspring.”
Interesting theory, could be thats how evolutionists would explain why men developed attraction for pretty females.
However I really doubt thats why the boys mother would want a pretty girl.
Also most boys want skinny girls, skinniness is not a sign of healthiness.
If anything being a little plump is a sign of healthiness.
“Pretty does not necessarily mean any healthier than a less pretty person.”
There are some natural pretty traits that translate to healthy, like facial symmetry (left side and right side), youth, healthy looking skin & hair.
There are others that are more cultural, like skinny or hair color, which may have nothing to do with healthy.
“The parents are older, wiser, more experienced and knows their child. “
Many boys are out of the house for many years, including high school, yeshiva, etc. Parents may not know the boy all that well. They are living with the image they had.
I had an “older and wiser” relative (not parent) set me up once because they wanted to be connected to the chashuv family. Like I said, they can be just as subjective. BTW, the girl was quite rude.
I have friend that admitted that he was attracted to a certain girl for his son based on the way she looks. He admits that he went after his eyes. B”H it didn’t work out. He asked a Rav for a good shidduch suggestion, and he son is happily married to that suggested girl. My friend said that this girl is not the kind of DIL that he wanted. To which I replied, that she’s the good shidduch FOR HIS SON. To which he admitted that’s what more important.
so what’s to become of the girls who are not pretty? And who said parents know best? Let’s see, who picked the shidduch for Yitzchak, Yaakov, Yosef and Moshe Rabbenu. Hakadosh baruch Hu and for some reason I believe that Hashem does not make shidduchim based on beauty alone.
so what’s to become of the girls who are not pretty?
Obviously everyone in this world has a zivug 40 days before conception. The “not pretty” girls get married too. Not all boys are perfect either. Just explaining why they are more wanted.
For sure. But if the option is good midos and pretty or good midos and not so pretty…. Hashem braided Chava’s hair before her marriage to Adam to make her beautiful. It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.
Getting back on topic, the reason the boys mother is more involved in a boys shidduch, is simple. The boy and his parents are looking for a wife. This means talking to the teachers, friends, neighbors of the potential kallah. So who is going to make the phone calls to the teachers and friends etc. the Tatte or the Mamma??? Obviously the Mom!
When looking for a Chosson, son-in-law it’s the father who will be making the phone calls to the Rosh yeshiva, roommates, mashgiach etc. SIMPLE.
Joseph, if a man-child of 25 needs mommy to tell him what woman he should marry, I feel sorry for his wife. She’ll always be second to mommy
There are plenty of girls with good middos. I think that’s why prettiness becomes such a determining factor.
A person’s inside is on his face to a certain degree. Your subconscious knows it, even if consciously you are unaware. When you are looking at a person whom you consciously view as pretty, your subconscious is telling you this person is desirable. A person’s midos are reflected on his face.
That is what face reading / Chochmas Hapartzif is about.
Joseph, if a man-child of 25 needs mommy to tell him what woman he should marry, I feel sorry for his wife. She’ll always be second to mommy
That might very well be true in a culture which expects him to take care of it himself.
It is most definitely not true where the expectation is that the parents will take care of shidduchim.
“It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.”
Where?
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DY- the point being made is that the system is ridiculous. There is no reason that a 25-year-old boy who is ready to get married should be relying completely on his parents for shidduchim, and, once he is married, relying completely on his in-laws for support.
He’s not relying completely on his parents for shidduchim, and usually not completely on his in-laws for support.
There’s an interesting theme running through a lot of these shidduch threads. I wonder if I’m the only one who’s noticed it.
Listen to the ladies talk about guys. They’re not describing them favorably, or expressing much respect. The guys are infantile, listening to Mommy, expecting financial support, shallow and obsessed with looks, among myriad other faults too numerous to list.
The guys’ mothers are the embodiment of evil, infantilizing their sons, interested in all the wrong things, asking ridiculous questions, and the polar opposite of the refined Eishes Chayil described by Shlomo Hamelech.
Now listen to the girls complain that they haven’t found their bashert: They are heartbroken. They want to be married and are not. They want a husband, presumably a guy (member of the same genus described above), who, if he’s not unfortunately an orphan, comes along with that venerable creature- the guy’s mother!
Switch all this to the high heels thread we’re in middle of right now. Say I join and list all the reasons I hate high heels. They’re extremely uincomfortable. They’re bad for my posture. They bend my vertebrae irreparably out of shape. I think they’re ugly. They make me look unattractive. They’re bad for my digestion. They’re more expensive than regular shoes. They look ridiculous. All my friends agree with me.
Then I end by stating that I’m devastated because I don’t have high heels. And all my friends who agree also don’t own any high heeled shoes and are upset.
What would you say?
Golfer, you know I agree with you.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-shidduch-system/page/3#post-529994
DY, I’m always impressed when you do that– Find a post from ages ago that fits right into the current discussion. Must be all that time spent hunched over a Gemara…
Can you also accurately pinpoint the exact daf and amud and line where anything your chavrusa mentions appears?
Google doesn’t work for that 🙁
No, golfer. It’s more like if all the shoes on the market are high heels and they are shopping for flat shoes. And they are very upset that they can’t find shoes and have to walk barefoot when the shoemaker/shoestore should have the right kind of shoes for them.
“Google doesn’t work for that”
Then it’s kedai to be related to a big Talmud Chacham if you can’t be one yourself 🙂
golfer- fair point.
It’s very easy to get frustrated and hurt by all the hurdles of shidduchim. When people are in pain, they tend to try to find someone to blame for it. Many boys and their mothers, who, from a girl’s perspective, embody a lot of what is wrong with the shidduch system, are a convenient target.
Nah. The boys generally don’t have a problem getting dates.
“”It says a Talmud Chacham should marry a pretty wife.”
Where?
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Doesn’t the gemarah say isha naeh bemaasim?
No, their mothers are.
Brooklynboy: I don’t learn Gemara, I did get an explanation but unfortunately I lost the notes, I figured that if I’ll give you the exact place you can learn it for yourself. Yes it does say ??? ??? ??????
and other things as well. So learn it and you tell me. If you can’t figure it out, I’ll get it again, tomorrow. My source wakes up early to learn…
There is one thing that I don’t get in this whole conversation about girls who can’t get dates: Every date involves a boy and a girl, so please explain the math to me. How can it be that boys go on more dates??? There is 1 girl and 1 boy on each date.
Joseph- DY’s point is correct; they don’t have so much to complain about, since their shidduchim go relatively smoothly. They don’t have to go through what we have to go through in order to get dates.
Obviously, there are other frustrations involved for boys, and some of the blame does go the other way. But since girls are in the position of weakness in this equation, it makes sense that a lot more blame is vented at the boys (and specifically their mothers, since they are the ones who take care of their sons’ shidduchim).
Maybe if the girls stopped wearing such high heels they would appeal more to the guys. And the guys should stop wearing heels too.
Hashemisreading- what is your classification of “such” high heels?
Queen: I did learn it and it isn’t mashma at all that it means a pretty wife.
Technical21: I think over 4.5 inches is too high, unless your really short.
Hashemisreading- the highest heels I have ever worn are 2 3/4 inches, and I’m 5’3″. Most of my friends are taller than me and wear heels that are a minimum of 3 1/2 inches.
As I said, I do wear heels on dates.
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