Shiduchim, what else?

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  • #605119

    Getaclue
    Member

    So my question is like this: as a 23 yr old very pretty girl who comes from a nice fam, $, personality, good job, etc., am really not getting all that many names (meaning yes’s from guys.) I understand that there is a “crisis” and in the grand scheme of things 23 is young (all though 5 years of dating feels like a lot!) just wondering on a practical level is there anything I can be/should be doing to help myself? Thanks in advance for all ideas:)

  • #947432

    Litvish kiryas yoelite: Cool your heels.

    Mod-95

  • #947433

    princess17
    Member

    I think whenever ur supposed to get married u will get married! wether its at the age of 23 or the age 0f 19. The only thing u can do is daven and do a normal amount of hishtadlus like go to shadchanim…. I know of someone who was in shidduchim since she was like 19 I think and she finally got a date at like 22 and that date ended up being her husband so look at it this way ,the less people u go out with the better ,my mother went out with 73 guys until she found the right one and it wasnt fun,She wouldve rathered to hav less dates and meet my father right away but thats what hashem wanted so thats what happened!

  • #947434

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    I’m also a very pretty girl with a nice personality.

  • #947435

    OneOfMany
    Member

    You two sound like a perfect shidduch… ^_^

  • #947437

    WIY
    Member

    Getaclue

    There can be a number of possible reasons why you are still out there. Some of this may be blunt but I am not accusing just throwing out possibilities.

    1. Your parents may not be saying yes to the right types of boys so you are dating boys who arent your type or arent looking for the same type of life you are looking for. This can be either because your parents dont really get what you are looking for, you dont get what you need and are telling your parents you need a type of boy which isnt really for you or because your parents want a certain type of boy or family that fits whatever picture they have in their head that they want for their daughter and what fits your family and therefore are saying no to potentially good shidduchim.

    2. You are too picky.

    3. Your parents arent speaking to the right shadchanim.

    4. You are possibly giving off the wrong impression on dates (either coming off too frum when you are regular or coming off modern when you are regular…)

    5. You arent opening up enough on dates and not sharing enough.

    6. Its simply not your time yet for whatever reason Hashem deems it which isfor your ultimate good (thats if all the hishtadlus and what not is being done correctly)

    7. Your parents arent being openminded enough and are saying no for silly reasons or are not doing enough research to see if the guy can be for you. For example lets say your family is yeshivish so your parents wont listen to any shidduch thats from a heimish or chassidish background and maybe your bashert is somewhat chassidish or vice versa…Or y.ou are short and refuse to date tall guys or vice versa…

    8. You may not like this but if you are attractive as you say, a picture speaks a 1000 words, when your parents email your resume make sure theres a good picture attached. You dont know how much this can help. Whether you like it or not people dont believe when they hear someone is attractive because unfortunately (and I know from first hand experience) that everyone has a different idea of attractive and many girls who were mentioned to me as attractive I found to be unattractive as soon as I saw the picture. But the truly attractive girls were attractive on the picture as well. Take my word for it attach a picture to every resume you email.

    9. Make sure you have the right people as references for you. I know of stories where the friends were not presenting the girl or guy in a positive enough light or were making them sound like people that they arent (either much frummer or much less frum than they are based on what they think the person wants to hear…)

    Im sure I can think of more. At the end of the day remember there are a lot of single girls out there and most young guys (under 25) will want to date the 19- 20 year olds.

    Dont make your parents crazy but make sure they are working the phones at least a few times a week calling shadchanim. The only way to be on the mind of a shadchan is to have your parents talk to him/her regularly so that your name is on his/her tongue.

  • #947438

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Princess – Wow, 73 dates !! Yikes!

    Getaclue – I’m also 23, but just starting to date. You are lucky that you live in a big Jewish community, which I assume that you do because you say u speak with shadchannim. Where I live there are almost no frum girls to date. I don’t know what I’m going to do other than fly out of here and try and meet someone who is willing to relocate. I don’t want to be too old when I marry, but I also don’t want to rush into anything I am unsure about just bc of convenience. Dating is not pashut… : /

  • #947439

    Curiosity
    Participant

    I forgot to say… May you be matzliach 🙂

  • #947440

    Naftush
    Member

    WIY, your post captured every element that has made finding a spouse a nightmarish ordeal: the fine-tuned typecasting, the meddling parents (and the possibility that they’re not meddling enough), the importance of impression over substance, the need to align the spouses’ unbending religious practices, the quest for perfect resume tricks including references — all of which before the boy and girl are even allowed to meet! The only exception was Point no. 6, but then, has anyone since Eliezer trusted Hashem with something as important as a shidduch?

    The most daunting thing about it is that every word was meant to be helpful.

  • #947441

    Matan1
    Member

    Try online jewish dating like YU connects or saw you at sinai.

  • #947442

    david26
    Member

    it helps if you keep your options open, like one of the other people wrote, being open to all jews, as long as the hashkfa is the same will really open thing up in terms of the pool of potential men, like sefardic, chasidish background, or even modern background. Make your pool solely on the goal and hashkafa you have. just imagine if everything was right about him, hashkafa, personality, motivated, attracted…and the only thing about him was that he is…..would it really make a difference?

    on reason why tu beAV was a chag is because all the shevateem were allowed to marry with one another-even though each shevt undoubtingly had different minhagim… not accusing you, but using this as a platform to voice my perspective on a situation like this…you never know who Hashem wants you to marry. Hope this helps you OR anyone else who is unfortunately limiting their options and making things harder than it has to be.

    SUR KOL SUF–HASHEM IS HERE CONSTATNLY HELPING US AND WANTS WHATS BEST FOR US-GAM ZU LETOVA, BE BESEEMCHA

    HATZLACHA

  • #947443

    david26
    Member

    btw 23 is not old at all, you ll be fine dont sweat it

  • #947444

    princess17
    Member

    curiosity- even though it was 73 she got married at the age of 24 so bh she wasnt old , she started young so even though she had to go through so many guys at least she still got married at a normal age!

    getaclue – I think u should try also getting brachos from big gedolim in israel ,daven at amuka…

  • #947445

    I’m a 25 year old guy in shidduchim and your question cannot be answered satisfactorily without a full understanding of what type of gy you are interested in. Boys get many shidduchim that all sound the sam on paper. Fortunately for me, my sister is quite talented on picking up on the character of girls to help me make my decision. However, for may boys there has to be a draw on your resume. If you are pretty, a picture will greatly help. if your parents have money make their job titles sound like they can help support a boy untill he turns 173. The same goes for your job title- walk the fine line between prestige sounding without an overload of sophistication. The most important thing is to network-not so much with shadchanim but with the neighborhood yentas. Although I dislike it, there is a subculture among dating boys (I have a hard time considering some of them men) in which certain girls/young ladies are much discussed. I must stress these ar generalities and if you would define your community and what you are looking for, you may gett a more specific answer. Good luck.

  • #947446

    interjection
    Participant

    What’s the question? How to find the one or how to facilitate enough interest from the other gender as earn an ego trip?

  • #947447

    Getaclue
    Member

    Wow, I’m amazed that so many people took the time to answer! Ty! I am from the tri state area looking for an all round good guy who’s learning for now and will then go out to school or work.I have been pushed many times to provide a picture. Till now I have not done it as it honestly turns my stomach…. Am I wrong? dating guys: what’s your take on it?

  • #947448

    Getaclue
    Member

    And to med. thinker: are you saying its a good thing or bad that the guys are discussing the girls? Just not sure what your point was there. Interjection: if you aren’t getting red names then you arent dating then you aren’t getting married.

  • #947449

    Curiosity
    Participant

    interjection, why are you so caustic so often? You really need to lighten up some.

  • #947450

    GeshmakMan
    Member

    Just a guess, but I don’t think that getting 37 random opinions/answers from the CR will be that helpful!

  • #947451

    WIY
    Member

    Getaclue

    Provide the picture. Its very normal procedure today and I think it will help you. The people who don’t provide the picture (often) have something to hide in my opinion. My mother always asks for a picture and if she doesnt get one she wont even consider the shidduch unless she arranges to meet the girl or see her someplace which is inconvenient and takes up peoples time obviously…

  • #947452

    ckbshl
    Member

    Some rather pretty people are not photogenic,if that is your problem don’t give a pic. However if you look good even in pictures what are you afraid of? I think people need to realize that usually the picture is not there for fetish purposes, rather to make an assessment of the very different perspective some people have of “pretty” or at least not unattractive!

  • #947453

    twisted
    Member

    A metaphor: This year I had very little time, and found no hatzlacha in finding a mehudar esrog, so I bought a “sealed box” and relied on the the yerei shamayim employed by the badatz that the esrog is what it is labeled as. When I opened it up, it was not exactly a love affair, but we stayed together over succos, and functioned well.

    Now if we could develop a sensitive, vetted, no opening, no refund, “sealed box” system for shiduchim ?

  • #947454

    Now if we could develop a sensitive, vetted, no opening, no refund, “sealed box” system for shiduchim ?

    twisted: That’s exactly how Jewish marriages were traditionally arranged between the groom and bride’s fathers, in advance.

  • #947455

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Etrogim are pasul if they have a mum. Even if the yerei shamayim who put it in the box weren’t aware of it when they sealed it.

  • #947456

    OneOfMany
    Member

    twisted, TLKY: The reason that system worked then is becuase it was naturally suited to the social/cultural dynamic of the times. You cannot argue that it be implemented now without arguing that that entire way of life be recreated. Case in point: the people who that system still does work for are the ones who have pretty much preserved that dynamic.

  • #947457

    I agree with your comment, OOM. But, my personal opinion is that those who have preserved that age old dynamic are comparatively much better off for it.

  • #947458

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Now if we could develop a sensitive, vetted, no opening, no refund, “sealed box” system for shiduchim ?

    Because if you think that marriages are bad now…

  • #947459

    avhaben
    Participant

    I think marriages are pretty good, with room for improvement.

  • #947460

    Daven, then relax – it only takes one! And make sure you network.

  • #947461

    twisted
    Member

    and lets not forget the ‘dancing in the vineyards” method, that was so successful that Tu b’Av and Yom Kippur were noted for the joy of multiple matches.

  • #947462

    avhaben
    Participant

    Twisted: Chazal discontinued that method for very good reason.

  • #947464

    OneOfMany
    Member

    TLKY: Okay, but the discussion of the relative merits and lack thereof of different Jewish communities is really irrelevant. The point is that the people the people who choose not live that way cannot feasibly adopt such a shidduch system.

  • #947465

    Wisey
    Participant

    Keep in mind that being b’simchah on a date is a big plus and even in general if people know you as a happy girl the word will spread.

    P.S. I realize that this is especially difficult in your situation. Hatzlacha!!!!!!

  • #947466

    postsemgirl
    Member

    Oh boy I have so much to say so much to say.

    I think I will keep my mouth shut on this one…..

  • #947467

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @getaclue… as i guy who is currently dating .. i have to be honest . i had always been of the type not to ask for a picture .. but as previous posters mentioned just b/c a girl is attractive/good looking in one person’s eyes doesnt mean its the same view for the person looking to date … so to save myself the dating a girl who doesnt even fit certain “criteria” i have started to request a picture .. it may save u time in the long run .. Are u looking for a guy who is learning/working or full-time learning?

  • #947468

    Curiosity
    Participant

    I agree with hockey_fan. I’m in a similar position, but even more difficult because I live way OOT, and I would have to fly in for every date. It is an objectively STUPID move to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on travel to go on a blind first date with a person who you may find physically unattractive. There are never any guarantees, but for many people – particularly ones in my position – it is best to clear up whatever factors one can, before committing to fly in for a first date. Assuming that every guy that wants to see a picture is doing so for ulterior or even malicious reasons is overly judgmental and is not giving any benefit of the doubt.

  • #947469

    interjection
    Participant

    I would never have sent a picture. I would have preferred celibacy to giving a picture of myself to a guy. My husband was actually a guy who did always insist on seeing pictures first yet by me he didn’t ask…go figure.

    And I apologize if what I said before came out offensive. I meant to clarify the question but I have read it again and I realize it came out sounding supremely negative and judgmental. Sorry.

  • #947470

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @postsemgirl.. why not express your opinion .. isnt that what CR is for

  • #947471

    Its very important in life not to question God. He knows how to run this world.

  • #947472

    Getaclue
    Member

    @ hockey fan, learning working guy. Still really not in to the picture. To me it just seems like selling yourself cheap.

  • #947473

    Getaclue
    Member

    And why is it that the guys are so afraid of going out with a girl who is gd forbid not stunning.its one date, that’s it. Plus it’s not like the guys who are asking for pictures are that great looking themselves.

  • #947474

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @getaclue. b/c many of those dates that are”only one date”. add up to alot of $$ and depression/sadness because they dont see themselves going on 2nd dates with those girls

    and why do think i am selling myself cheap?

    learning/working .. which is more important to you? one very hard thing to understand abt girls these days . do you want him having a job and learning when he has time (or other way around?)

  • #947475

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Hockeyfan… BOTH! obviously! No joke… I’ve seen some girls’ resumes say they want a full time learner who can go out and work when necessary. In this economy!? Are you joking!? Who is going to hire him with no college degree, no expertise, and no prior work experience? Pick one or the other ladies! You can’t have both.

  • #947476

    hockey_fan
    Member

    Agreed.. But when do they want their husband getting that degree.. When hes younger or has has a family with 2/3/4 kids and is struggling to make ends meet because the kollel he was in can longer guarantee his monthly stipend

  • #947477

    Getaclue
    Member

    @ hockey fan: x to get to off topic but did it ever Occur to you That maybe you can like a girl who is not beautiful by ALLS standereds? Who knows, maybe youll Fall for her great personality?! (novel conccept….)By selling yourself cheap I meant I feel as if I’m selling myself cheap by providing a picture.To address your other question, I cannot speak for all girls but as far as myself I am looking for a guy who is working/ in college however learning is extremely important to him. Not sure what all the drama was about….

  • #947478

    hockey_fan
    Member

    different strokes for different folks

  • #947479

    Hockey fan and get a clue sound like the perfect shidduch… You two have really different opinions, but you seem to really respect them…

  • #947480

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @getaclue. it is very possible that could happen. this brings me to another point abt shadchanim. Most shadchanim these days dont truly know the guy/girl that they are trying to help. yes they may have met them once in person(if even that happens these days) but if they havent how do they know the “type” of people they are setting up. by providing a picture it can describe alot about a person that a resume or a phone call sometimes cannot.

    i have been working with a shadchan for awhile who never asked me for a picture , yet recently i was in contact with a couple other shadchanim who said that they would not even look at my resume w/o adding a picture ( and yes i will admit self-portraits are not my favorite thing in the world) but if i wanted to “expand” i had to come to the realization that i either jump in with both feet (give a picture) or sit on the side(withhold the picture)

    I am not trying to say that you should/have to give a picture but it could possibly increase your chances of iy”h getting more yes’s because yes unfortunately guys are into looks and realize that they have to live with this girl for the rest of their life.

    hatzlacha on your dating endeavors and may we all find our husband/wife

  • #947481

    Hi everyone! I’d like to chime in with my 2 cents about the above topic: Im 21, in shidduchim, and have to agree with hockey_fan. When people come over to me and ask, “learning or working”, I telling them, sorry if you want a one word answer, I cannot talk to you. Because you know what? I’m not looking for a job title and I’m not looking for a Yeshiva, I’m looking for a person! Lemme hear about the person, and whatever way he is best serving Hashem, then perfect!

  • #947482

    syeshiva
    Member

    As chazal say, “Knei Licha Chaver”.

    The only way to get a good shidduch is buy them off.

  • #947483

    *tell them

    (sorry, proofread it a little late!)

  • #947484

    hockey_fan
    Member

    if u have to pay someone off for a shidduch then trust me you’re going to have a very difficult marriage

  • #947485

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @snowbunny613 so why not be the shadchan 🙂

    maybe through here we do but im not a “full-time” learning guy(which i believe she is looking for) and hope to be working primarily and learning iy”h in the evenings/when i have time..

  • #947486

    syeshiva
    Member

    hockey_fan : Why do you say that? i simply don’t agree

  • #947487

    Nechomah
    Participant

    GAC – I wanted to share with you a thought I had about the issue of pictures and “stunning girls”. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It could be that in America there is a certain standard to being stunning, but I don’t know that every guy out there is looking for a “stunning” girl, but at least a girl who is attractive to him. I have a few woman friends where I live and I saw their husbands and I thought, “Eeewwww, she’s such a pretty girl, how could she marry such a nerdy looking guy?” I came to realize that a guy I might find attractive is not necessary the same as what my friend would find attractive and not only that, they might have decided that he was OK on first glance and then got to know him and really came to appreciate who he was, so the fact that he wasn’t tall, dark and handsome didn’t seem so important. I think a guy deserves to not invest excessive time and $ to go out with a girl who he would just say no to when she first comes in the room simply because she is totally NOT attractive to him, so why can’t he see that first and not say OK to a shidduch that has 0 potential. If he’s reasonable, then if she’s at least somewhat attractive to him (not stunningly beautiful) hopefully he’ll give a first date a chance. If he sets too high of a standard, then he’ll say no to every picture he sees and then the shadchanim will get the idea that he’s being too picky and act accordingly. I hope what I said makes sense. I do understand your concern about giving in your picture, but I don’t think it’s necessarily selling yourself short.

    Hashem should send you your zivug b’korov.

  • #947488

    farrocks
    Member

    Nechomah: I’m not sure that your analogy is correct, as men and women are not looking for physical beauty in the same way. Men and women are different in this regard.

  • #947489

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @shaggersyeshiva.. so then plz explain what u are trying to say

  • #947490

    Hockey_fan: Get a clue said that she wants someone who will learn and then work. I understand that there are differences between what the two of you want, however, I personally feel that if you two weren’t so interested in each other, you two would not have invested so much time commenting about the whole putting a picture on your shidduch resume thing. I would love to be a shadchanis the only thing is that I am in E”Y now and you two seem to by in ny… what are you planning on doing for a parnossah?

  • #947491

    hockey_fan
    Member

    something in the computer industry ( IT, network support.. etc)

  • #947492

    Getaclue: What are you doing for a parnossah?

  • #947493

    Working in the high tech industry is a viable parnossah and if you end up moving to E”Y, you can find plenty of jobs here.

  • #947494

    hockey_fan
    Member

    going to israel isnt one of those things i look to do unless i have a job prior to moving there

  • #947495

    ok, i am not trying to promote aliyah here…

  • #947496

    hockey_fan
    Member

    i nvr said you were .. but i do agree with abt there being more tech jobs in israel

  • #947497

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I’m 22, and I would suggest that the best possible thing you can do is to not be too preoccupied. Focus now on your career, growing b’ruchnius, helping your parents, doing chesed, and when you feel ready to enter the commitment of marriage and caring for another person and children, bli ayin hara, than focus on finding your zivug. My recommendation would be also to not shy away from sites like Saw You at Sinai and Frumster/JWed, and to also not to be closed from gerim or baalei teshuva- they are often greatest in religious commitment (see Rabbenu Avraham’s shita in Tosfos, Yevamos 47b, on R’ Chelbo’s sapachas comment).

  • #947498

    Getaclue
    Member

    It’s been a while:) I am actly in the computer/ web industry myself! Although I appreciate the recent suggestion hockey fan and myself have been having marital spats with out the marriage! So think well have to pass on this one!

  • #947499

    hockey_fan
    Member

    who are u talking to ??

  • #947500

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @getaclue.. I nvr said a picture was required just could increase your chances because of the way guys are these days.. I guess you will find your husband being one that doesn’t take looks into his concern but the power to u

  • #947501

    Getaclue
    Member

    Snow bunny

  • #947502

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @gac .. i was actually referring to rebdoniel .. but sometimes posts take a while to actually post

  • #947503

    ok, fine.

  • #947504

    hockey_fan
    Member

    @snowbunny3318.. maybe u could correct if im wrong. but i dont see that i was forcing my own opinion at all.. just stating the facts of todays generation

  • #947506

    Hockey_Fan, you were not forcing your opinion at all, you just wanted to help her.

  • #947508

    gemgirl
    Member

    hi everyone i have a problem PLEASE HELP ME!

    I really like the guy I am going out with. In fact, we are getting quite serious. But he was engaged to my best friend and he broke it off, three weeks into their engagement. she was devasted. as I grow closer to this guy, my friend has become increasingly distant. I am worried this will kill her. she is my best friend but I really think this could be the guy for me!!! what should i do???

  • #947509

    interjection
    Participant

    You broke the girl code. Girls don’t go out with their friend’s exes, unless with express prior permission.

  • #947510

    Curiosity
    Participant

    That’s not just girl code, that’s guy code, too. You really should have seen this coming. It’s too late now. You’re going to have to choose one or the other, or try to get your friend to be okay with it, but that sounds unlikely from how you described it. Seems like you are really stuck. Good luck!

  • #947511

    hockey_fan
    Member

    i would ask your LOR if i were you

  • #947514

    Wisey
    Participant

    I can’t offer advice but I just wanted to tell you that I feel your difficulty and hope it gets resolved soon. Did you ask your friend why the engagement broke?

  • #947515

    princess17
    Member

    gemgirl -i think you should ask a rav what to do. and ask the girl why the guy broke the engagement.?

  • #947516

    gemgirl
    Member

    firstly, let me make something clear- believe it or not i didn’t realize it was him until our first date because he has a pretty common name and they broke their engagement over a year ago so none of his references mentioned it. (not sure why). but once we went on that first date we just clicked right away, and i cudnt help it, we went out again. the second date became a third.. then a fourth…. after like the fifth date i sat down with my friend and we spoke about it and she said we was fine with me going out with him, bcz it obviously wasn’t meant to be for her. but now i could tell she feels hurt. probably the reality of the situation is sinking in. But doesn’t the fact that she gave me permission count for something?

    Also the reason that he broke the engagement was, in my opinion, mainly her fault. she did not disclose some crucial health information until after the engagement and he was not prepared for it.

  • #947517

    oomis
    Member

    There IS an unspoken code that you never go out with your friend’s ex. BUT – you say she said it was ok with her, though clearly she does feel hurt (which is to be expected, as he broke an engagement to her). The only thing that will help her is for her to be involved with the RIGHT zivug for herself. Until then, it will probably continue to hurt her. I am sorry for your situation, because this clearly is shterring the complete happiness you deserve to feel in finding the right guy for you. But if you look at it from her standpoint, it is painful for her to watch you with the guy who got away. This is not an easy situation, and will require great sensitivity on your part, as well as that of the fellow you are dating.

  • #947518

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The bro code, I think it’s called.

    Bros before women. (or something like that)

  • #947519

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Girls before churls.

  • #947520

    I probably wouldn’t know if it was my friends’ ex. Who shares names when talking about shidduchim?

    Maybe my friends are special, but they wouldn’t share names.

    ***They were engaged, it is common once someone gets engaged to say the name.

  • #947521

    farrocks
    Member

    It is complete baloney that a guy or girl cannot or should not go out with a friend’s former date or even former engaged (now broken) shidduch. You can and should go out with him (or her) without hesitation and should get engaged if appropriate.

    It should be with much mazal.

  • #947522

    JustLogic
    Member

    Be real…

  • #947523

    Thank you for explaining, Rabbi/Mr Moderator!

  • #947524

    Curiosity
    Participant

    I have an interesting story for those of us in shidduchim… My friend studied in MTJ (Rabbi Feinstein’s yeshiva).

    Once, my friend attended a wedding with R’ Dovid Feinstein and he noticed that there were two lines of people waiting to get brachas from the Rav. One was of boys and the other was of girls, and both were asking for brachas in shidduchim. R’ Feinstein turned to him and said something along the lines of, ‘I don’t understand why they are all coming to me for a bracha. There is a line of boys and a line of girls… Why don’t they just socialize and get to know each other?’

    His point seemed to be that today, people are so concerned with the frum velt’s formalities in shidduchim that they fail to realize that it’s perfectly permissible to circumvent the superficial establishment and do it in a more “natural” way. I am put off by people who think that it’s somehow a lack of tzniyus for a boy to approach a girl he is interested in getting to know to ask her out on a date. If it’s good enough for R’ Feinstein, it’s good enough for me. I’m not saying shadchanim aren’t worthwhile. It’s nice to not have to reject someone to their face, but if you need to get married you don’t necessarily have to go through all the bureaucratic channels.

  • #947525

    WIY
    Member

    Curiosity

    The shidduch system is supposed to vet prospective marriage partners so you dont waste endless hours dating people who are not for you. I can go chat up every girl I meet at a chasuna and still end up single and so much more frustrated and confused and having spoken to so many more girls than necessary. The shidduch system is supposed to match you up with someone compatible and looking for the same thing. Its much harder to find that when you just start talking to random girls/guys.

  • #947526

    Curiosity
    Participant

    WIY, I don’t disagree with anything you said. However, you can still do the research on your own, or just keep your eyes open and if you see someone at a wedding that piques your interest, ask about her and approach her yourself. You don’t HAVE TO go through shadchanim, and there’s nothing wrong with approaching a girl, that’s what R’ Feinstein was saying. I was just decrying the perception that doing so is in some way a lack of tzniyus.

  • #947527

    basyechida nomore
    Participant

    Curiosity, in theory, your idea sounds great, but it’s not for everyone. Since both genders don’t normally mix in the Jewish world, many guys wouldn’t know how to chat up a girl even if they had the opportunity. And I say this even though I did not meet my husband through a shadchan and I’m really grateful that I was open to the idea since no shadchan would’ve ever introduced us. So I’d probably still be single if I was waiting for some shadchan to introduce me to my bashert.

  • #947528

    Curiosity
    Participant

    That’s true, but close to my point. Rav Feinstein obviously does not condone the fact that people in shidduchim refuse to mingle for the sake of shidduchim. It sounds like he holds it is proper hishtadlus to go out of your way and mingle with a member of the opposite gender for the sake of finding your zivug. I wouldn’t pasken from a story you heard third hand over the internet, but people should definitely ask their LORs.

    I also personally heard from a close talmid of Rav H. Leibowitz ZTZ”L that one time a certain Rav said girls should be “understanding” when dating yeshivah guys because they have no experience talking to girls due to spending the large chunk of their lives in front of a gemara in yeshiva. R’ Leibowitz was adamently against this statement and said a guy who claims this excuse about himself is lacking in his mussar and middos. If you learned mussar properly in yeshiva you should have no trouble talking to a girl like a mentch.

  • #947529

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I also personally heard from a close talmid of Rav H. Leibowitz ZTZ”L that one time a certain Rav said girls should be “understanding” when dating yeshivah guys because they have no experience talking to girls due to spending the large chunk of their lives in front of a gemara in yeshiva. R’ Leibowitz was adamently against this statement and said a guy who claims this excuse about himself is lacking in his mussar and middos. If you learned mussar properly in yeshiva you should have no trouble talking to a girl like a mentch.

    ????? to the rosh yeshiva, this sounds like a game of telephone to me. The rav said, someone told the talmid, the talmid asked the rosh yeshiva…

    The problem referred to presumably was that yeshiva guys don’t know how to talk to girls in ways which build a romantic relationship, and has nothing to do with being nice or polite or a mensch.

    I’m guessing this was told over to Rav Leibowitz as being a problem of girls having to understand that guys will not be nice to them. And he responded the way he did. But the rav was certainly talking about what I am referring to.

  • #947530

    I don’t buy into the idea that boys not having experience talking to girls, or knowing how to build a relationship, is part of the problem. Girls certainly don’t need experience to figure out how to get male attention – it’s pretty instinctive.

    For every guy who lacks social skills, there’s a girl who also lacks social skills.

  • #947531

    WIY
    Member

    torah613613torah

    Guys are visual so yes if a girl dresses up…we will notice. Girls work differently or so I have been told 🙂 so what will make a girl notice a guy?

  • #947532

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t buy into the idea that boys not having experience talking to girls, or knowing how to build a relationship, is part of the problem. Girls certainly don’t need experience to figure out how to get male attention – it’s pretty instinctive.

    It is instinctive, but we’ve trained ourselves to not do it. And it is an issue.

    One prominent (female) family therapist told me that it is a very common issue that yeshivish girls don’t know to interact with guys in a romantic way. And the same with guys. Or perhaps more accurately, that they think it is inappropriate to, and they hold themselves back and a bit aloof.

    Is that a problem? Depends what you think. If you think it is important to have romantic feelings about one another before you get engaged, then it is. If you don’t think so, then it is not a problem.

  • #947533

    superstar
    Member

    @ WIY

    You said guys are visual and so if they see a girl they will make assumptions from what she looks like. Girls, I guess, are visual too but personality is a big thing. Also, girls can really notice if a guy is rude or haughty by how he acts with his friends. A girl can notice a guy just from seeing him, but not necessarily notice notice. Makes sense?

  • #947534

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Just as a correction, I checked with my source-it was r’ Reuven Feinstein, not R’ Dovid Feinstein who said this.

  • #947535

    WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba

    What do you mean when you say romantic feelings…?

  • #947536

    hockey_fan
    Member

    well its time to post that im off the market.. proposed on friday

  • #947537

    Mazal tov, hockey_fan! May you build a BNB adei ad!

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