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Englishman,your point is valid but only applicable to his shul. The report is being used to apply to all MO, which without the details and author, shouldn’t be done
My father is a clean shaven man. Once a young chassidishe boy came over to him and said “du bist a yid”?
My father was furious and outraged that a child could grow up thinking that despite wearing a yarmulke, a man might not even be Jewish without a beard.
And that, my friends, is closed mindedness at it’s best.
I disagree.
It is quite normal for little kids to think that other jews look like the ones they see every day. The kids father never showed him a clean shaven jew with a yarlmuke and said “goy”! And besides, the arabs in yerushalaim also cover their heads with a kippa looking thing frequently.
Anyone else in that situation would have said, “how cute”, and understood where the kid was coming from–instead of being upset.
And that my friends, is closed-mindedness at its best.
lesschumras – I loved your last post. Except this line, which to me means you are who you say they are.At the same time, I do expect no less from the yeshivish/chareidi posters. My opinion’s shouldn’t affect them in the least.
I grew up frum but not chareidi, we were unbelievably prejudiced and condescending toward everything about them from their dress to the names they gave their children. When I became chareidi I expected things would be different but it isn’t. Not an iota. And we both thought we were right. And we were BOTH wrong, just in different ways.
B”H my husband and I have found a circle of friends who have risen to higher places in their adom l’chaveiro and are good role models for us.
I really can’t understand why this topic is still around. There is still nothing constructive going on here, only pointless bickering that serves no purpose other than to offend people.
Mods, can you please not only close this thread, but delete it entirely? It serves no purpose other than to highlight the unfortunate chasm that still exists between observant Jews.
Rabbi Pruzansky laid out some things that will help our children grow up frum. I’m going to lay out something that I believe will bring us closer to the geulah, where it will be evident to all that the Torah way is the only proper way. Instead of looking at the negative in people and their way of life, let’s focus on the positive, and not write derogatory remarks about anyone. The Beis HaMikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam. Let’s work on our ahavas Yisrael – even going above and beyond the basic requirements – and in this way, bring Mashiach.
This is an extremely valuable thread. Rabbi Pruzansky shlita brings much to the table with his raising the cries of this OTD crisis, and much more importantly Rabbi Pruzansky’s very wise suggestions to his own MO brethren.
Rabbi Pruzansky’s column should be read out as a Shabbos drasha at every MO shul.
Popa
Really?!?!
Have you EVER heard of a kid from a modern background looking at a chassidishe kid and ask “are you Jewish???”
Nonsense!
mommamia22, I’m sorry you feel that pulling the wool over your eyes is better than knowing the truth, but I prefer the latter.
And, yes, I still maintain that everyone, not just rabbanim, should know the truth about any “derech” that they (or their kids) might be exposed to and MO is certainly in that category unless you live and work in certain monolithic neighborhoods.
Besides, what do you have to hide? IF you feel MO is valid, then defend it rather than covering it up.
You’re saying nonsense. You expect the parents in meah sheorim to have a picture of book entitled “types of jews”, where they will point out each one and say “this is a teimani, this is a bucharian, this is a chardal, this is a dati, this is someone from the five towns, this is someone from chicago.”
MO kids don’t grow up in insular neighborhoods, because such neighborhoods don’t exist. If they did, then I expect they would be very surprised the first time they saw a chossid, who would look nothing like the jews where they were from.
mommamia – we used to look at people who didn’t wear a kipa or who wore pants and ask them if they were Jewish. My mother would be horrified and the person was HIGHLY offended. They, of course, assumed that that was what my mother taught us. But she didn’t. Little kids say – “I wear ____ because I am a Jew, if you don’t, you must not be”.
I have a friend who is a Rabbi , He got his simicha from YU.
He got a job at a Satmar Yeshiva, The kids used to call him a Goy
Interesting discussion. Does anyone have any theories as to why the proportion of people who go OTD is 10 times higher in the modern orthodox communities than it is in the chareidi communities?
(I see there is a lot of discussion on the exactitude of the 50% figure, but even if it is off it is obvious we are dealing with a huge number.)
zahavasdad – I hate hearing those stories as they do make my blood boil, but on the flip side (I have an annoying habit of always looking at the flip side) the Satmar adults who hired him must not have shared that view.
sushee (and some others): I have not posted on this website often recently and only because the headline (quoting Rabbi Pruzansky) caught my eye did I comment. To Sushee: as you saw from others, this mysterious study does not exist. It was a sad mistake for rabbi Pruzansky to use this because it was “an oral report”, more like loshon horah, actually.
It is a preposterous opinion and the fact is that- on the contrary- many.many more students who are not frum become frum when going to a jewish (even MO) school.Look around you and you will see hundreds-thousands-of baalei teshuva who were influenced by MO teachers and even leaders of a different kind – like R”Shlomo Carlebach zz’l whose yahrzeit is tomorrow night. May he continue being a meilitz josher for all of us.
Listen, if a well known and very respected modern orthodox rabbi can cite a figure of 50%, even if it is off it is going to be in the ballpark. Is 50% an overestimate? We don’t have proof either way. It might be an overestimate. It might be an underestimate. Or it might be right on target. But even if it is off, it is not going to be widely off the mark, otherwise it is inconceivable such a highly respected rabbi — who himself is modern orthodox! in one of the largest MO communities in the world! who has a lot of experience with MO families with his rabbinical/pastoral pulpit position, being the rov of a shul with 600 (yes, 600) MO families — would cite the figure.
Rabbi Pruzansky doesn’t need a study to see the extent and magnitude of the problem. He experiences it every day in his line of work.
What is the percentage of kids and young adults going OTD in Williamsburg and Monroe?
There is only anecdotal evidence, but from much first-hand experience, I’d estimate it to be in the ballpark of 1%. (If by OTD you mean no longer frum as opposed to going from one Chasidus to another; becoming a Litvak; or getting lax in some mitzvos.)
There is only anecdotal evidence, but from much first-hand experience, I’d estimate it to be in the ballpark of 1%.
I am sure it is higher than 1%. Then again, I am sure that the kids who you think only became non-chassidish, that many of them are really not shomer shabbos either but don’t want you to know.
Why would you guess it to be higher than 1%? And why do you think some who only appear to have left Chasidus actually left Yiddishkeit altogether?
I believe the Yeshivish OTD rate is slightly higher than the Chasidish rate, but also not much more than 1%.
shlishi, “I believe the Yeshivish OTD rate is slightly higher than the Chasidish rate…”.
Something tells me that its the reverse! IMHO, I think youre way off.
If you ever chance upon any of the many OTD websites:
1- The English and grammar of most of the posts is horrendous.
2- Yiddish terms that are used in Chassidishe homes are used. Litvish kids know how to spell and are much better at grammar. Litvish/Yeshivish kids are really not well versed in these Yiddish phrases.
3- Many of theses websites have people posting, speaking of their upbringing in Williamsburg and Monroe, etc and other extremely Chassidic areas. Many of the OTDers offer interviews and speak of their Chassidic upbringing.
MSS: You are seriously basing your observation based upon anonymous web postings??? Forget about your attributions to authors backgrounds based upon their writing style, but the very idea of thinking you can get even a rough idea of the demographics based on postings from OTD websites is preposterous. Only a very small percentage of OTD people post on those crazy sites. And they are very far from being representative.
I stand by my observations.
shlishi, preposterous???? You dont even attempt to back up your opinion.
Never mind your observations, Id like to hear what Kiruv professionals who speacialize in OTDers, have to say about what background/upbringing they deal with and hear of most.
MSS – I am not a ‘kiruv professional’ nor do I have that much experience with OTDers, but I did tutor for a few years in a small yeshiva that catered to boys who didn’t fit the system and many of them could have been potentially at risk. From what I saw, those from a more Chasidish background who don’t fit the system are at a greater risk of becoming disillusioned than those from other backgrounds, followed by kids from very heavily insular non-Chasidic backgrounds (certain parts of Gateshead, the non-Chasidic Stamford Hill-ers etc.). The Sephardi kids seemed the least likely. Most of the boys from across the spectrum that were in the yeshiva when I tutored there are now either in mainstream yeshivas or are back on an even keel and, although they are no longer in yeshiva, they are solid bnei torah.
The director of the Anti-Kiruv organization has said most of the people that go there are Chassidic although they are getting more and more Yeshivish
zahavasdad, “The director of the Anti-Kiruv organization has said most of the people that go there are Chassidic…..”.
If youre referring to the organization whose name starts with an “F”, they openly say on their website that they get their funding from organizations like UJA (shocking) to help those from Chassidic communities get education, but everyone knows, at the same time, they offer parties and trips on Shabbos and Yom Tov to secularize them. This has been going on for years. When asked about this publicly, they innocently answer that they offer Kosher food. Anyone going on their website, sees speakers and authors featured at lectures, who equate ultra religious people with cult members.
Shlishi, but you’re willing to accept a nameless sourceless unseen report to support your numbers.The OTD % is not 50% but neither is it 1%
Hmmm….. MOs have a Rabbi and they treat him like that?
I wonder if Rabbi Pruzansky, who is rightly bothered by the high OTD rate, collects funds for the UJA, the organization that encourages, and lessens the religiosity of those looking to go OTD, by its giving financial support to the organization with name starting with an “F”.
I hope not!
I have a dream!
Wouldnt it be great if Modern Orthodox congregations would stop supporting the UJA, as long as the UJA encourages and motivates the OTD population in the abandonment of religious observance. Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.
If the MO are going OTD then charaidi are also to blame. Quite a few of the Rebbes in the MO schools are Charaidi. Actually, there are not enough MO people that go into chinuch, so they hire many Charaidim.
One can argue that the Charaidi Rebbes are not helping.
MDG, “If the MO are going OTD then charaidi are also to blame…”
My observation has been that there are way more Chassidim going OTD than Mod Orth.
Once the Chassidim start going in that direction, and get involved in the organization with the name beginning with “F”, which is happily financed by UJA, and supported by Modern Orthodox synagogues, the Chassidic individuals leave Orthodoxy, and often Judaism of any kind, period.
IMHO the Modern Orthodox themselves have less congregants going OTD than the Chassidim, but they support the organizations that help Chassidim move away from any form of Judaism.
This is my biggest gripe with the Modern Orthodox movement. They financially support UJA, who fnancially support “F”.
MSS: Rabbi Pruzansky has a lot more experience in dealing with the MO OTD crisis than you will ever have, with his large MO congregation. If he put the number at 50%, that is something he would know of from dealing with it. He wouldn’t publicize a percentage unless it bore out or at least correlates from what he was seeing firsthand in his own large community that he ministers.
And I can advise you from my own experience dealing with otd fellows in the yeshivish and chasidish communities that the percentage there is not even a drop in the bucket compared to what Rabbi Pruzansky is relating. By us we are easily dealing in the low single-digits.
Without defending the Anti-Kiruv organization. There needs to be a way for those who cannot live the Chassidic lifestyle to somewhat stay in the fold without them leaving 100%, It seems everyone knows that organizations name so they are fairly well known.
I know many love that lifestyle , but obviously some dont and one of them became a famous author by writing how much she hated it. So there is some issue there too.
zahavasdad,
“There needs to be a way for those who cannot live the Chassidic lifestyle to somewhat stay in the fold without them leaving 100%”
Agreed! I am very well aware of the author you speak of, and the many like her who all/most met/meet at “F” and get encouragement there to leave any form of observance of Judaism, financed by the UJA, financed by Modern Orthodox synagogues.
Which is why I wrote:
Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.
I would actually go so far as to defend it, people who want out need a safe way to get there.
Especially females who can fall down a much darker road in search of an exit..nothing more needs to be said on that.
It’s a necessary evil, and if you want to put them out of business then there are two choices.
1: build the ghetto walls even higher and employ a 1984 style level of surveliance on the inhabitants
2: widen the derech a little bit so not everyone who doesnt fit in the box seeks the need for approval elsewhere.
I haven’t written a check to UJA in decades and I have no idea what the organization beginning with F is.
crisis:
“widen the derech a little bit so not everyone who doesnt fit in the box seeks the need for approval elsewhere”.
Brilliantly said! But an organization without hostility towards religious observance cant hurt!
I think by the time the people find that orgazination I think its too late, they have been so turned off by Yiddishkeit, it might be hopeless.
1: build the ghetto walls even higher and employ a 1984 style level of surveliance on the inhabitants
This is already done and it doesnt work, they mostly threaten not to let your kids in school
While I agree that such an organization is needed, I don’t ever see one coming to fruition.
I don’t see Satmar* just sitting by while an organization that turns disgruntled Satmars into yeshivish or MO Jews is created. They would denounce such an organization and attempt to use their influence in the Orthodox world to have the organization shuttered.
The Wolf
* I don’t mean to pick on Satmar specifically. I think the same would hold true for most, if not all, chassidic groups. However, Satmar is one of the few with the clout to really make trouble for a pro-Orthodox organization that allows individuals to segue out of the chassidus.
Wolf: No such organization is needed any more than we need an organization to turn MO Jews into Satmar Chasidim. In fact, a much stronger case can be made for the latter, considering the tremendous OTD rate among MO Jews, and that it would be better to convince as many of them to become Yeshivish or Chasidish where the OTD rate is considerably less.
A random statement: It impresses me how people state things they absolutely cannot possibly know with such absolute authority. Out of curiosity – how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? and if I have 2 pins, can double the number of angels dance? and….GO
Avhaben (or whatever you call yourself these days),
You;ve missed the entire point.
There are Chassidic people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they leave the derech altogether, when they might just as easily remain on the derech and in the yeshivish or MO camps. (Now, I know you don’t consider MO on the derech at all and probably think they’re better off in a Reform Temple than in MO, but I’m going to ignore that for now). And so, there should be programs that allow them to go where they’re more comfortable and remain on the derech.
And, to your point, if an MO person would be more comfortable in a chassidic setting, they should be allowed to follow that derech too.
The Wolf
Why not an organization that offers help and information on career and educational opportunities, lectures and social services from all branches of Orthodoxy, perhaps even Shadchanim, 😉 and not espousing any one specific Derech?
Anything would be an improvement over the organization available now for the OTD population, which serves to bang the coffin nails of OTD leanings, permanently, by creating antagonism towards traditional observance.
There are Chassidic people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they leave the derech altogether
And there are MO people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they too leave the derech altogether. (And this, in fact, occurs at a far higher rate among them, as R. Pruzansky noted.)
And so, there should be programs that allow them to go where they’re more comfortable and remain on the derech.
Ditto for the MO. 1) Why aren’t you advocating organizations to help transition MO Jews to a Chareidi way of life? 2) Why has only the reverse occurred to you?
Ditto for the MO. 1) Why aren’t you advocating organizations to help transition MO Jews to a Chareidi way of life? 2) Why has only the reverse occurred to you?
Did you even read what I wrote above:
And, to your point, if an MO person would be more comfortable in a chassidic setting, they should be allowed to follow that derech too.
The truth, however, is that there isn’t a need for organizations the other way. Yeshivish and MO Jews aren’t given the message that it’s either their way or OTD. They know that if they want to join a chassidus, all they have to do is approach them. It happens all the time.
Chassidic people, on the other hand, are given the message that if they don’t follow in chassidus, then it’s little or no different than going OTD.
The Wolf
Wolf, “Chassidic people, on the other hand, are given the message that if they don’t follow in chassidus, then it’s little or no different than going OTD”.
True in the majority of cases, but why lose these members to observant Judaism, just because the parents are fixed in their ways and theres only one organization known to help them? At the end of the day, in their heart of hearts, parents still prefer Modern Orthodox over non-practicing, intermarrying Jews.
The sentiment you speak of, doesnt negate the need for an organization that welcomes these ex-Chasids, that isnt antagonistic towards religious observance.
This topic disgusts me..
@Health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”
I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.
Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.
There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.
All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.
These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!”
The sentiment you speak of, doesnt negate the need for an organization that welcomes these ex-Chasids, that isnt antagonistic towards religious observance.
You missed what I wrote. I agreed with you that such an organization should exist. However, I also expressed pessimism about the practicality of it existing.
The Wolf
Avhaben,
Why must you immediately make it a MO issue, especially since Wolf mentioned yeshivish and MO
Wolf was correct. Children of friends have become Lubavitch, Belz ,and yeshivish
and the parents adapted and accepted their choices with love. Nothing stops a MO child from making a choice so no organization is needed.
PuhLease:
If the slightest kernel of a seed has been planted in someone’s mind to start an organization serving the needs of the people we speak about and giving them an opportunity to live in the outside world while not abandoning pride of their heritage and observance, there will be almost nothing more beautiful than that.
As right or as wrong as your opinions are…. the above holds true.
PuhLease, your words seem to be an emotional gut-reaction, rather than a logical thought-out response.
I don’t believe that understanding this topic is marchik Mashiach, but crying “Mashiach isn’t coming because…” is generally an erroneous feel-good excuse for covering up what shouldn’t be covered up.
Emes is Hashem’s signature, and we are supposed to emulate Hashem in appropriate ways. This is one of those. There are times when tact and evasion may be called for (see Hashem’s response to Sara Imeinu last week), but this is clearly not one of those times when the truth should be covered up.
Everyone should know the truth about our faith whose Torah is a Toras Emes, and if people wish to, and/or otherwise do, distort our holy faith, then those distortions should be exposed as distortions so people are not mislead off the derech Hashem. This has nothing to do with being “self-righteous”. While there may be more than one right (and wrong) derech in avodas Hashem, that doesn’t mean just any alleged derech is proper/permitted. Abrogation of halacha, by any name, is not permitted.
(I’m sorry all the people you associate with are, in your estimation, (part-time?) liars. B”H, I don’t believe that to be typical of Klal Yisrael.)
I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room.
HaKatan, “I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room”
True, but Im sure great ideas for great organizations have come about when Askanim read something inspiring and then took the ideas up with a Rov and other Askanim.
We can say what we want about the CR, but all kinds of people worldwide drop in and who knows what can come about as a result of suggestions made here.
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