Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate

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  • #605463

    bubka
    Participant

    About a week ago Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a well regarded MO rabbi from New Jersey, referenced on his site a new study that finds that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbos or Kashrus observant within two years of their graduation. This shocking statistic came only a year after another study found that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvos.

    Rabbi Pruzansky advises these families and the parents that to find blame they need to look in the mirror. He mentions activities that contribute to this crisis include talking (socializing) in shul, only going to shul one day a week, not being kovea itim to learn Torah, not having the proper Shabbos atmosphere (discussing sports and having chitchats rather than saying over Divrei Torah and singing Zmiros), and not dressing children in Bigdei Shabbos.

  • #941398

    missme
    Member

    That’s pretty bad. That is approaching the assimilation rate of the conservatives and reform.

  • #941399

    Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus. In other words, the ones who are ‘kashrus and shabbos observant’ are also off the derech.

  • #941400

    Sam2
    Member

    It’s a little skewed because a lot of the people in these high schools aren’t Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus to begin with. My experience is that not so many have gone off. Unfortunately, I know that my experience has been very lucky and that most of the people I knew from these types of schools were raised properly and very Frum starting out. It is a problem in a lot of places. (I wonder what the rate is for graduates of “Yeshivish” Yeshivos?)

  • #941401

    truthsharer
    Member

    Is there a “Simcha Bunim” Pruzansky to speak about the RW OTD problem?

  • #941402

    WIY
    Member

    Scary.

  • #941403

    I find that I am exceptionally good at identifying other people’s problems, but not quite as good at identifying my own.

  • #941404

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Alot of people who go to MO schools are not religious and in fact many people who go to MO shuls like Young Israels and the like are not reglious either, but they are Pro-relgious. Meaning they like the religion but have limits.

    The reason more Charedi dont leave is because they are more forced to stay. If someone wants to leave MO they can do it and there isnt much penalty, however in the Charedi world women are married as teenagers and frequently have children before they are 20 and the men are also married quite young and there are children as well.

    When there are spouces and young children its much harder to leave. Also MO families dont usually shun OTD kids where Charedim (especially Chassidic do) so if you leave you are really on your own.

    MO’s can also function in regular society so its not so hard to leave, if you are charedi you really cant function too easily and blend it

  • #941405

    I was wondering when this would pop up in the CR.

    When will the “I told you so’s” start?

  • #941406

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    From those that I’ve met over the years at a university, they went to “modern orthodox” yeshivas, but weren’t from orthodox homes.

  • #941407

    dolphina
    Member

    My personal observance and background aside, based on the unbelievably extreme judgement passed on everybody and anybody, by just about everybody and anybody (right, except for you, the guy with his fingers poised on the keyboard to hand me my head because he did not. right. you didn’t. ever.) I’m surprised anyone with a smidgen of self respect would want to be associated with the majority of the crew who comment here.

    And just so it’s clear, not one of the people posting here keep all the mitzvot (mitzves, mitzvos, mitzvois, pick your poison. no matter to me). so stop judging. just stop judging. You (except for you, guy ready to go apoplectic) have no idea the damage you are causing to people interested/curious in yiddeshkeit who see the vitriol directed at anyone who is a fraction of a degree off the observance trajectory of any given poster. It’s obscene.

    Last I checked commentators in this chat room were not given the keys to assess which are the ‘important’ commandments (see how i avoided the multiple versions? ha) and which are not.

    There are people saying that someone with a jewish father may not be Jewish. WHAT? and yet, there is actually a discussion posted on whether white collar crime is ok. (goes to ignorance as well as rudeness, judgment, etc)

    And i won’t even get started on the misogyny. Someone is divorced. Whose fault is it? Dumb question, the woman of course!!

    wow.

    I’ve been reading a lot here. It absolutely turns my stomach.

    This may be my one and only post. I had to get it out. This topic seemed apropos.

    Go ahead, comment away. I will not be responding. But if one person thinks before spewing his poison, I will have achieved something.

    Good night.

  • #941408

    Health
    Participant

    chassidishY.U.type -“Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus.”

    Prove it! And btw, why did you go to YU -it’s MO?

    Btw, I’m not MO, nor did I learn in any MO Yeshiva/school.

  • #941409

    akuperma
    Participant

    Who did the study? Where is it published? Define “Modern Orthodox”? In many cases, a “modern orthodox” high school is one in which the majority of the families are not strictly Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kashruth to begin with. If 50% are Shomer Shabbos after high school in spite of 40% of the parents having been Shomer Shabbos, the school is doing quite well.

    Was he talking about a school of “penguins” who are considered “modern” by virtue of the fact they celebrate Israeli Independence Day and don’t learn Yiddish? Or was he talking about a school that is serving a wider community and in which only a minority of the familes are frum.

  • #941410

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Note that the study with the shocking statistic is unpublished, and Rsbbi Pruzansky won’t reveal its author. There’s a wide range of schools that could be classified as Modern Orthodox. Without knowing more specific information about the schools, it’s hard to evaluate the numbers. As Sam2 points out, in many schools regarded as MO, many of the students aren’t Shomer Shabbos or Kashrus going in.

    In no way am I saying there’s not a serious problem here. I’m just frustrated that there isn’t enough information on the study.

  • #941411

    yytz
    Member

    Disturbing, but every study needs to be evaluated on its own terms. Many studies are flawed, and don’t accurately reflect reality.

    That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if many MO teens go off the derech once they go to college. Even the college has a sizable Orthodox community, the anti-religious ideology of many courses and non-Orthodox students will inspire many MO kids to go OTD, no matter how strong their upbringing. The key, I think, is to send them to YU/Stern (or even Touro), where the “normal” thing is to stay on the derech.

    Hmmm…why am I not surprised that the first person to (falsely) claim MO is apikorsus is supposedly a “Y.U.” type. Moderators, why do you let such a comment through? Is one of the purposes of the CR to trash any Orthodox Jew who doesn’t fit into your definition of charedi?

  • #941412

    REALIST
    Member

    B’mechilas R’ Pruzanski,

    Be advised, Yiras Shomayim is a noun.

    Y’rei Shomayim is the adjective you’re looking for.

  • #941413

    bubka
    Participant

    Realist: I provided a summary of Rabbi Pruzansky, not a quotation. The linguistic mistake is mine, not his.

  • #941414

    dhl144
    Member

    Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.

    A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly…

  • #941415

    yehudayona
    Participant

    REALIST, is it “my son the medical” or “my son the doctor?”

  • #941416

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    dolphina

    If you had shemiras anayim you wouldn’t have become so mad. And I don’t think you should be judging posters of this hallowed site so viciously. If it doesn’t conform to your taste, lifestyle, then (as Mommy told me) don’t look. You have something against out tireless Mods? They didn’t write anything, like they didn’t pen your vicious attack either. They’re not even “deciding which are the ‘important’ commandments”, maybe you are. Dealing with others civilly (I think) is a mitzvah too.

    And no, you and every one else in your category are making the same mistake. No one directs vitriol at anyone who is a fraction… No. And No. It may be the way you feel. But IT’S NOT OUR FEELING. (did I ever say anything bad to you before?)

    I welcome you to cool down a bit, sit down to a (virtual) hot coffee in our cozy little coffee-room. Thinkerator may operate better, clearer.

    btw I don’t call mitzvhos poison. They’re my conduit of connection and love towards my Creator.

  • #941417

    GeshmakMan
    Member

    Yes it was a brilliant and revealing article, very scary as well!

    However as Sam2 said, the number is extremely high because they are including ALL members of “Yeshiva High Schools” regardless of how that school defines Orthodoxy. Some of these “Orthodox” schools have a school sponsored prom, and many of the kids come from homes that are not keep Shabbos at all anyway. In that case the kids are not “off the derech”, rather simply following the “Derech” of their parents!

    That being said, the real number is high enough his article was spot on about the issues and how to solve them

  • #941418

    realist – they are both nouns; yiras shamayim is an emotion (fear of Gd), y’rei shamayim is a person (one with fear of Gd). You are correct that y’rei shamayim is more appropriate.

  • #941419

    kfb
    Member

    I went to a yeshiva in Israel and most of the kids weren’t religious. It was 80% yeshivsh kids and 20% modern kids. The modern kids who weren’t religious were normal and respectful of the rabbis and Judaism. Most of the yeshivsh kids were totally off(drugs…) and were very disrespectufl to the rabbis. A lot of they guys including myself became more religious as the years went on. However I just want to state they I’d rather my kid be respectful and normal than unhappy and religious.

  • #941420

    Curiosity
    Participant

    dolphina! *high five*

  • #941421

    re: “It’s a little skewed because a lot of the people in these high schools aren’t Shomer Shabbos and Kashrus to begin with. My experience is that not so many have gone off. Unfortunately, I know that my experience has been very lucky and that most of the people I knew from these types of schools were raised properly and very Frum starting out. It is a problem in a lot of places. (I wonder what the rate is for graduates of “Yeshivish” Yeshivos?)”

    Sam2, I agree! But I think its more than a little skewed.

    A college grad can choose one of three levels of religious practice- the same level of religiosity that they were brought up in, less religious than they were brought up in, and more religious than they were brought up in.

    Due to my connection to singles of Modern Orthodox background, I see so many YU/Sterns grads going to the right of their parents, just the opposite, that this all just doesnt ring true!

    I read profiles daily of girls whose mothers dont cover their hair and had TV’s and went to movies, and these girls want to cover their hair and not have a TV or go to movies, and guys wanting the same, to move to the right religiously of their parents in their married lives.

    Whether they are pursuing advanced secular degrees or are living the Kollel life, they are so genuine. I dont get the feeling the people I deal with are the exception to the rule. They have totally different mindsets and goals. I read inspirational profiles every single day.

    Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.

    The OTD type profiles I read, where you see the religious observance lessening after high school and college, are not the Modern Orthodox crowd at all. Use your imaginations.

  • #941422

    Sam2
    Member

    dhl: Care to define this “Modern Orthodoxy” that you’re so strongly railing against.

  • #941423

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant

    That implies that they once were Shabbat and Kashrut observant, unlike the theories put forth by some posters here.

    However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.

    In other words, what hasn’t been demonstrated is what is the cause and what is the effect.

    I personally do not agree with many of the ideals espoused in the name of Modern Orthodoxy, but this study, if true, would still not support my opinions.

  • #941424

    Health
    Participant

    dolphina -“My personal observance and background aside”

    Before you come and start criticizing e/o here, how about telling us about your observance? Are you a Jew in heart only? Do you keep Shabbos and/or Kashrus? Did you go OTD and who do you blame for that -all of us? I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth. So if the poster posts the truth and for whatever reason this ruffles someone’s feathers – well too bad.

    This doesn’t mean that if a guy is in Kiruv he shouldn’t have any sensitivity, but posting here isn’t the same thing.

  • #941425

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    If it’s M, it ain’t O. If it’s U, it ain’t Y. If it ain’t D, it’s OTD.

  • #941426

    Dolphina – “And just so it’s clear, not one of the people posting here keep all the mitzvot.” That is negative judgment at its finest. Unlike much of the (admittedly often wrong) judgment of ACTIONS one may see here, you are judging PEOPLE. The Torah perspective on people is al tadin es chaveircha ad shetagia limkomo and havei dan es kol adam lekaf z’chus (don’t judge another til you walk in their shoes/ judge people favorably).

    Actions are either right or wrong and the Torah requires that we know which are which (ubacharta bachaim – you must choose life).

    P.S. As to the matter of clearly settled jewish law that the privileges and responsibilities of being jewish are only passed on through the mother, is that misogyny too?

  • #941427

    Toi
    Member

    I told you so.

  • #941428

    sushee
    Member

    DaasYochid: I don’t know whether this study alone in isolation disproves Modern Orthodoxy as a valid path, but it has been stated as being an invalid path by many of the gedolei yisroel.

  • #941429

    morahmom
    Member

    So maybe we can all take advice from Rabbi Pruzansky’s article, no matter what letters you use to describe your frumkeit. Yeshivish and chassidish groups have an OTD problem, too, no matter how the statistics are different. Rabbi Pruzansky has asked for sincerity in several key mitzvos – would we not all benefit from focusing more on these? Our children certainly would!

  • #941430

    on the ball
    Member

    Dolphina – I respect your right to your opinions. However one statement you made prompts me to respond as it is not a matter of opinion – it is a matter of fact.

    A child with a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother is not Jewish according to Halachah. Fact. It may seem unfair but it’s just the way it is.

    G-d made the world so He gets to make its rules too. There are other rules He made that may seem unfair like certain rules of physics e.g. the fact that a speeding bullet is able to kill an innocent person

  • #941431

    akuperma
    Participant
  • #941432

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I agree with what was posted already – many MO schools accept students who aren’t really frum. They’re not “going off”, they’re just keeping to the path they were already on.

    There are people who go off from all backgrounds. I recently heard from someone about a girl who graduated from a Beis Yaakov who got engaged – to another girl. Apparently this class had about half the girl “go off”. Some found their way back, others didn’t.

    In the yeshivas I went to (all respected yeshivish places), I know a number of boys who “went off”. I honestly don’t know if they’ve found their way back or not.

    This issue is not limited to one group. It happens everywhere.

    I had a conversation with my Rav last week about different groups. He hates the whole idea. He says, “Just try to be the best Jew that you can be. Do what Hashem wants according to what you’ve been taught. If that’s considered MO, chareidi, chassidish, or something else, it doesn’t matter. Just keep the mitzvos, and you’re fine. Don’t put anyone into groups. We’re all Jews.”

  • #941433

    g73
    Member

    Just a point of fact, the head of Ramaz (a VERY MO school) contacted Rabbi Pruzansky to discuss the report. Rabbi Pruzansky admitted that he never actually read such a report, but rather heard about a report. We know nothing of who conducted the survey; how it was conducted; who were the respondents, how large the sample was, what questions were asked or what definitions were used.

    It might have been enough info for the rabbi to give mussar to his shul, but certainly not enough for us to pass judgement on an entire group of frum yidden.

  • #941434

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    What is really scary is that I didn’t see people say “Menachem, that is terrible”. Rather a bunch if people getting all defensive and for the most part making illogical defensive comments.

    How is that going to help the situation?

  • #941435

    However, this study, even if true, does not disprove, in any way, the validity of Modern Orthodoxy as a legitimate path towards avodas Hashem. Modern Orthodoxy, widely considered less stringent than “right wing Orthodoxy”, might very well simply be more appealing to those who tend towards lesser observance.

    This is a good point regarding self-selection.

  • #941436

    Not only that, just for an example, by and large, when a YU/Sterns couple decide to live the Kollel life, no one stipulates that they need parental help. They do it on their own, whether either or both husband and wife already have high paying jobs, or are just en route to the high paying jobs, after the Kollel period. They are truly Mistapek b’Muat. No need for fancy furniture, cars, sheitels, clothing, etc. By and large, materialism is looked down at rather than looked up to! I find the YU Sterns crowd more genuine Ovdai Hashem than those from Yeshivish communities. I know lots of people of all ages from all frumkeit levels and this is what I feel. Modern Orthodox definitions of true frumkeit are remarkably genuine and probably closer to the original Talmidim of R’ Aron Kotler’s era. Im very very impressed.

    This is what I have seen as well.

  • #941437

    vochindik
    Member

    Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (Vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative. That is, change Judaism into something that more people will be willing to accept.

  • #941438

    MorahRach
    Member

    I think it has finally happened. This is the most offensive thread I have ever seen. No wonder why so many people go OTD. Calling MO people apikorus? Let me tell you a little bit about me. I grew up MO. Both of my parents are Baal teshuvas. Their parents never kept shabbos, kosher, taharas hamishpacha, etc. my parents both were never surrounded by yiddishkeit except when they would go to ” synogogue” for rosh hashana and Yom Kippur. Somehow in spite of all this, both of my parents found modern orthodoxy, bH! Through friends, class mates, the local orthodox Shuls in their respective neighborhoods, my parents slowly but surely became more religious and eventually found each other. I was raised modern orthodox, I kept shabbos 100% I kept kosher 100%, yes I wore pants but I was not allowed to wear a lot of the things that my friends wore. My faster had an idea of Tsnius, maybe it’s not what I call Tsnius now but it was in my fathers yes then. I went to shul every shabbos, I led groups and I Davened. ( unlike many of my more yeshivish friends now who I know hated shul and just slept all day). Eventually I became more “frum” left my secular college and went to Stern. I’m married bH with a child bH, live a frum happy life, I am blessed. But it hurts my heart literally when I read some of these comments! I definitely would not be who I am if it wasn’t for my apikorsus parents. My sister btw who is a good deal younger then me wear her jeans, goes to a co-Ed school, and she wants to be just like me. She doesn’t, along with my parents, hate that I took my orthodoxy farther, they are proud of me. My mother makes sure to say her brachas out loud around my son so he will learn the proper way to eat. My father still learns every single day. He has never missed a day of Tefilin since he was 22 years old, save the day after his heart surgery. My point is.. MO people are still Hashems children. Treat them as you would treat your yeshivish neighbor. They love Hashem to. They may not keep all of the same Mitzvos as you, but they do what they think is right. Please stop judging them so harshly.

  • #941439

    To quote the original article:

    that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant within two years of their graduation.

    This does not shock me in the slightest. I imagine most “graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools” are only there in the first place as a private “prep” school (which is what we see in areas like Teaneck, and schools like RAMAZ) with some “Jewishness” mixed in to make it socially acceptable. Many of those never see their parents doing anything Jewish except to light the Menorah (with bulbs). That is what you get for being a prep school instead of a yeshiva (as well as why tuition is so much higher in these areas).

    V’Haryah, Mrs. Trump (whose children would need to be M’Gayer, IMHO).

  • #941440

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.

    A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly.

    Transport back in time 250 years and the Vilna Gaon said the same thing about Chassidism

  • #941442

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Member

    Uhhh. Zees, Dolphina meant “poison” about the spelling. Like people would automaticaly make a judgement about you if you spelled it Mitzvot (MO) or mitzvis (Frummy) or mitzvois (super BP frummy) Not that mitzvot are poison.

  • #941443

    GeshmakMan
    Member

    Health – it’s not the “frum” world’s job to speak the “truth”. Even if it was, there are ways to do so.

    Just imagine if a Jew regardless of affiliation came on this website and read the CR, he’d probably run to the nearest church and baptize himself.

    Now you might tell me that posting here is “different” but in the “True Frum” world you speak of, we are supposed to act the same way in private as we do in public. Hashem is always watching us, whether it’s via blogging or anywhere else.

    A) Why don’t you start for us and define the word “Frum”

    B) Your “truth” is most probably your opinion

    C) The Modern Orthodoxy this article is discussing, clearly isn’t the Modern Orthodoxy that was drawn up and envisioned by Rav Soloveitchik z’tl many years ago. The people off the Derech in this article are simply “modern”, they have very little Orthodoxy in their life.

    The fact that they buy Challas for Shabbos or sit in the back of Shul on Shabbos and talk does not make them Orthodox nor does it reflect on the “Torah U Madda” Values that many Modern Orthodox Jews take very seriously and live by.

    For some clown to come here and blog that MO is apikorsus,takes a lot of nerve, reflects complete ignorance and is probably violating a few Issurim on the way as well.

    I can say this much for sure – a Modern Orthodox person is not wasting his time with pure Batala in the CR!

  • #941444

    golfer
    Participant

    “Studies”, especially those without clearly defined origin and authorship, hold as much weight with me as polls predicting who will win on November 6. This is not the time to get all judgmental (and worse) with a large segment of our community. We need each other more than ever, it seems to me.

    When you need guidance in halacha or hashkafa, consult a Rav who follows your derech, be it yeshivish, chassidish, MO’ish, or whatever you prefer. But the rest of the day, keep the studies to yourself, and remember how Hillel defined the Torah al regel achas.

  • #941445

    Sam: Are you implying that there is no definition of “modern orthodox”? I ask because, primarily, it is the modern orthodox themselves who self-define themselves with that classification.

  • #941446

    Health – FYI, calling MO “apikorsus” is not speaking any sort of truth.

  • #941447

    gregaaron
    Member

    There are people saying that someone with a jewish father may not be Jewish. WHAT?

    You lost a lot of credibility with that statement. Being Jewish is not a “feel-good” thing. A person from a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish, no matter how (s)he may feel about it. Such a person, who cares about following the Mitzvos and would like to convert, would be welcomed with open arms. But Halacha is non-negotiable, no matter how politically incorrect it may be.

  • #941448

    MonseyFan
    Member

    I for one, admire Rabbi Purzansky for his out outspokenness. There is nothing he is saying that isn’t true. Perhaps someone from Teaneck can tell us, “Does he say these things from the pulpit”? Given the makeup of his shul and community, I would applaud him if he did. This must be a man with a lifetime contract. Kol Hakovod!

  • #941449

    sushee
    Member

    golfer: Because you don’t know the author or methodologies of the study you will give it no weight and, if it is indeed accurate, you will allow 50% of the modern orthodox population to assimilate into oblivion?

  • #941450

    R. Pruzansky said “50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat or Kashrut observant”. And in light of several posters explaining that this is because many Modern Orthodox families are not Torah observant in the first place, it is worth repeating DaasYochid’s rebuttal that R. Pruzansky’s article “implies that they once were Shabbat and Kashrut observant, unlike the theories put forth by some posters here.”

    In other words R. Pruzansky is saying, if you read his words carefully, that 50% of once Torah observant Modern Orthodox graduates become no longer Torah observant.

  • #941451

    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello Coffee Room,

    To me, it does not seem kind or constructive to respond to this poll by attacking each other. Might we focus instead on positive actions and suggestions that potentially remediate the problem?

  • #941452

    golfer
    Participant

    Chas veshalom!

    Sushee, you really think it’s in my hands to allow or disallow any segment of the population to assimilate? I know I’m one of the best posters the CR has, but really, you’re making me blush. And giving me too much credit.

    MO schools have their problems; they also have their challenges, one of those being that some of their students start off from day 1 very weak in their Mitzvah observance.

    If Rabbi Pruzansky wants to ask us, as parents, to strengthen our homes and the chinuch we give our children, then that is something we can all take to heart, whatever schools we send our children to. (Personally, I have been dismayed to see one of the things he mentions- children participating in sports on Shabbos afternoons dressed in a way that is not in the spirit of Shabbos Kodesh. The gift of Shabbos has the potential to imbue our children with Kedusha, and it’s sad to see the gift squandered in the name of physical fitness.)

    However, if you want to take a study whose author, and his methodology and biases, are unknown, and use that study to malign a large segment of our people, then sorry, but I’m not buying in. And if you think that you’ll save all the poor, misguided MO Jews from assimilation by slandering them and their educational system then we all have a bit of a problem. I think more than a bit.

  • #941453

    Feif Un
    Member

    I’ve thought a lot recently about leaving the Coffee Room. The amount of misguided drivel and sheer hate spewed here is amazing. This thread has been the final straw. Not Rabbi Pruzansky’s comments – I know Rabbi Pruzansky and have a tremendous amount of respect for him. Perhaps I’ll even ask him about this issue. No, it’s the hatred shown towards fellow Jews who don’t live the same way that others might.

    I’m done. I’m leaving.

    Good bye; we’ll miss you. We appreciate the diversity of ideas you bring.

  • #941454

    yytz
    Member

    MorahRach and Medium Sized Shadchan: Thanks for sharing! Very interesting.

    Mods: Why are you letting through comments claiming that MO is apikorsus? Do you want this website to make frum Jews look like ignorant xenophobes who think everyone who isn’t just like them is a heretic? That’s what I asked in the last thread that was removed. Like someone else suggested, if there’s anything that’s going to make people go OTD it’s that kind of comment.

    Medium sized shadchan: Just wondering, do/did some of the MO singles you deal with go to college at places other than YU/Stern?

  • #941455

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Wow,

    Its about time Feif has made an issue about all the anti-non modern orthodox comments that have often been posted. Including comments by himself, Zdad, crisis and any number of others. Whether or not the comments were logical.

    They may wish to deny it, but their rhetoric has always been much more hateful. And I do not know why.

    I can’t say I am upset that Feif is going. I do think it is wrong to bash any group of Jews, after all they are family. I may strongly disagree with their positions, but I do not condone hate. I wish that were universal.

  • #941456

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Wow, with what I am seeing here, the question isn’t how MO schools are endangering the Jewish future, it is how anyone would want to identify and practice as a Jew if it meant acquiescing to the sinas chinom that passes for commentary here.

    When someone like Aurora77 who has told us she has recently begun her derech towards Torah observance has a clearer, kinder, and more constructive perspective here than people who have sat in Kolel for years, there’s something missing in what the Kolels are teaching.

    When someone life Feif Un, who is a shomer torah umitzvos and Yoreh Shomayim who I greatly admire, is so disgusted that he must leave this place, there’s something missing in the neshomos of some of the viler posters here.

    I’ve done my online hishtadlus against the worst anti-Semites, anti-Israel, and J for J missionary types – for more than a decade. I’ve tusseled with people who would slit my throat (and all of yours) if they weren’t half a world away in a Karachi medrassa. So I’m neither impressed, nor intimidated, nor easily disgusted.

    Hey, MO bashers – you’re Junior Varsity. Compared to what I’ve encountered you are bush league, and anyone who uses the intellect and bechiro chofshis HKBH gave us all can and does see through your veil of purity and probity to your simple desire that all who don’t look, think, act, daven, learn, and talk like you should vanish in the interests of kedusha and the future of your daled amos.

    Am Yisroel is more than your daled amos.

  • #941457

    dolphina
    Member

    apologies for my typo. I said Jewish Father. I meant Jewish Mother.

  • #941458

    golfer
    Participant

    Hello there feif un! You still with us? You really left? And Morahrach, this is for you too. You’re not planning on running off too, are you?

    Let’s not get so excited. Nobody’s hating anybody. All those venerable posters who can quote rishonim and achronim on matrilineal descent, patrilineal descent, and shaking hands with members of the opposite sex, are fully aware of the absolute prohibition against feeling, even in the innermost, hidden recesses of their good Jewish hearts, one drop of hatred for any fellow Jew. Jews do tend to feel passionately about things. We’re an opinionated bunch. Our first and greatest leader referred to us, his beloved nation, as an “Am k’shei oref.” And we haven’t survived 2,000 years of Galus by not standing up for what we think and believe. But please don’t take it all personally. Don’t join dolphina, whose post was one of, if not THE nastiest I have ever seen here, finding vitriol and hatred where there really wasn’t any. Did she come here expecting everyone to smilingly and nebbishly agree with every opinion she holds dear? The CR, kishmo kein hu, is here to put our feet up, enjoy an imaginary cup, and hear what the other fellow has to say.

    If we all start to take ourselves too seriously we”ll have to rename it The Hallowed Hall of Cogitation, or something equally offputting. And then EVERYONE will leave for greener, more relaxed pastures.

  • #941459

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Feif,

    Not a bad idea to leave the CR, but probably for the wrong reasons.

    I for one, who consider myself anything but MO, do not harbor an ounce of hatred towards MO Yidden, although I may strongly disagree with them in many areas of hashkafah. All of my peers, fellow “chareidim”, feel the same way as I. The sinah occasionally posted here is not a reflection of the real world (in fact most of the people in my peer group don’t even have regular internet access). this is a good reason to either leave, or at least not partake in these types of discussions.

    The silly posts you saw here were probably written just to elicit the reaction they did. The bored bochurim who wrote them are probably giggling at your response.

    Hopefully, you’ll use the time, otherwise spent here, doing more productive things (which is the other real reason we should all leave).

    Be well!

  • #941460

    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello MorahRach, Feif Un, and others thinking of leaving the Coffee Room,

    I am so sorry for the things that have been said that have hurt you! Please reconsider leaving — as the mods wrote in Feif Un’s post above, you bring a diversity of ideas, and in my opinion, we need that. I appreciate and value the thoughts you share. I am really saddened by the turn the commentary on this thread took. I do not believe that the negativity on this thread reflects the Orthodox community accurately and I fear for the impression that newcomers may receive reading here.

    Words have an incredible power to wound, I understand that. I also know that you must do what is best for your well-being — negativity like this is really toxic.

    I just want to say that there would be a real loss if you leave. I have benefitted from your presence. Thank you for that.

  • #941461

    We will miss you Feif

    and to nishtdayngesheft, thanks for the mention!

  • #941462

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Meh. I got tired of fighting the haters.

    There are several posters on these boards who have nothing better to do than simply make hateful, hurtful statements just for the sake of either hurting others or stirring up the pot. I’ve learned to just treat their statements as the product of people who are either ignorant, xenophobic, possessed of a holier-than-thou attitude or, perhaps, just plain mean and spiteful (or, perhaps a combination of all of the above).

    Sometimes you have to remember the old maxim: don’t wrestle with a pig. It only gets you dirty and annoys the pig. (And yes, I, too, am sometimes guilty of ignoring this maxim myself.)

    The Wolf

  • #941463

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I don’t know, I’ll try again (just is case they miss this post)

    I’ve read through most of this (hot) thread, and again, I’ve not found any of the (hate, vitriol, slander, poison) directed at any poster, or even at the Movement in question. To the contrary, it is ALWAYS someone from their camp foaming at the mouth screaming (holier than thou.. you’re turning people off.. you’re spewing hate..) I don’t know. It’s my own observation.

    Someone pointed out at the beginning that we ought to put a dagash, an emphasis, on HaShem, His Mitzvhos, His Torah, and earnestly talk about them to one’s children in order to bestow upon them a love for Torah life. Was any hate recommended?

    C’mon brothers and sisters. I suspect you have more to offer.

  • #941464

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    feif, morah and others –

    I used to feel just as you do about the stupid things that come out of some posters keyboards just as I felt when I listened to them spew in real life, but then I learned to take the high road. Not only do I not respond (actually I usually respond and delete the post before sending), but I have stopped reading the controversial threads, and have stopped opening threads that have certain posters names listed. It has made a tremendous difference, IRL and on the CR and I recommend you try it. That way you won’t have to deprive the rest of us of your thoughts and you won’t have to suffer this type of pain of galus. If you think you just can’t leave their words unchallenged then think of this – 1) they aren’t listening anyway so your words won’t help, and 2) sheker ein lo raglayim, and stupidity probably doesn’t either.

  • #941465

    Englishman
    Member

    ZeesKite: Well said. Could not have said it better myself.

  • #941466

    Hey, no need for anyone to leave the CR. Just do what I do: take everything with a grain of salt and only post once every two years or so. (I’m going for some kind of record lately, though.)

  • #941467

    Health
    Participant

    Working on it -“Health – FYI, calling MO “apikorsus” is not speaking any sort of truth.”

    Who said e/o here only speaks the truth? I was talking about when they quote different Shittas.

  • #941468

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its best to develop a thicker skin, certain comments reflect more badly on the poster than anything else.

    This site gets tons of viewers and whatever is said is for all to see. You cant hide what you post on the internet

  • #941469

    mommamia22
    Member

    I knew once the OP was read, people would leap on it and use it to put down MO.

    The MO world is so complex that any attempt to summarize it would fail to provide an absolute truth.

    Kol hakavod to those of you who highlighted the strengths of (some streams of) the community.

    Those of you who are thinking of leaving, I would hope you would not.

    You can see how much we need people to give a balanced perspective here.

    The only part of the OP that I appreciated was the information listing suggestions of how we can improve ourselves to strengthen the yiddishkeit in our homes.

    I wonder how many of those who posted here considered which of those suggestions they’d like to work on???

  • #941470

    Health
    Participant

    GeshmakMan -“Health – it’s not the “frum” world’s job to speak the “truth”. Even if it was, there are ways to do so.”

    I’m sorry, we have every right to quote Torah here, whether it’s PC or not.

    “Just imagine if a Jew regardless of affiliation came on this website and read the CR, he’d probably run to the nearest church and baptize himself.”

    Like I posted, it’s not our job here in the CR to sugar coat everything.

    “Now you might tell me that posting here is “different” but in the “True Frum” world you speak of, we are supposed to act the same way in private as we do in public. Hashem is always watching us, whether it’s via blogging or anywhere else.”

    Exactly and we will continue to post Halacha here whether some types of Jews are offended.

    “A) Why don’t you start for us and define the word “Frum””

    It’s very sad that you don’t know the definition.

    “B) Your “truth” is most probably your opinion”

    Some people post opinion here. When I said Truth -I was talking when people post Torah!

    “C) The Modern Orthodoxy this article is discussing, clearly isn’t the Modern Orthodoxy that was drawn up and envisioned by Rav Soloveitchik z’tl many years ago. The people off the Derech in this article are simply “modern”, they have very little Orthodoxy in their life.

    The fact that they buy Challas for Shabbos or sit in the back of Shul on Shabbos and talk does not make them Orthodox nor does it reflect on the “Torah U Madda” Values that many Modern Orthodox Jews take very seriously and live by.

    For some clown to come here and blog that MO is apikorsus,takes a lot of nerve, reflects complete ignorance and is probably violating a few Issurim on the way as well.”

    Therefore?!?!

    “I can say this much for sure – a Modern Orthodox person is not wasting his time with pure Batala in the CR!”

    This is an absolute lie. There are many MO posters here!

  • #941471

    akuperma
    Participant

    You do realize the initial poster significantly misquoted Rabbi Pruzansky’s statement (at his website), and that almost all the Loshan Ha’Ra in this discussion is based on the misquote, not on what he wrote. All he was saying is that parents should make a point of being frum in front of their kids in ways such as how they dress and spend their Shabbos.

  • #941472

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Health:

    The BIGGEST batlan here is not M.O. (How do I know?)

  • #941473

    bubka
    Participant

    A. Kuperman: There was no misquote. The initial post is taken, almost verbatim, from Rabbi Pruzansky’s post on his website. Every single point. Anyone can, and is free to, compare it to what he wrote.

  • #941474

    What an interesting thread and yet more interesting (and of course disturbing) than the thread itself is the anger that it seems to be causing. If I may offer my humble opinion.

    Yes, to all defensive mordern orthodox posters who seek refuge in the fakers in the yeshivish communities, there are people who wear one face and live another. Big whoop. There are people all over the world in all walks of life who are fakers. However, the movement which is both adhered to and supported by all of the gedolim of our generation and generations past is one which is built on integrity and stringent observance, to the letter, of the torah. Many within in have strayed and many will continue to stray, they may not even outwardly show this deviance, but what they stray from is a movement with ideals and utmost devout intentions. On the other hand, and cry all you like about it, the modern orthodox movement is damaged from the start. It’s inadherence to the very basic of requirements mean that even those who steadfastly cling to it, are misguided and not performing as they are required to. The word modern has no place when it comes to Judaism. To suggest an evolution in Judaism is to imply that it’s impressive creator was unaware of the trajectory of time on earth. A ludicrous statement. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supranatural being layed down the rules in this game and ours is not to question why. Setting an example to children that some things can be omitted within Judaism leads him to wonder why not others. There is no room for surprise when he decides to add others and then abscond every part of Judaism. I love all Jews and respect them for their individual ways of life – as people, but when it comes to right and wrong, there’s no debate and no margin of error.

  • #941475

    MorahRach
    Member

    If a person is raised with almost no affiliation, save those trips to “temple” on the high holidays with their parents, HOW do they know better? If someone is raised like that, and then the hand that reaches out to them and helps them embrace Judaism is in fact Modern Orthodox, how I ask do they know better then to associate with that sect? No one here is arguing what is technically right and wrong. I for one wasn’t. What upset me is the dismissal of these so called apikorsus Jews that you don’t deem worthy of a handshake. When Hashem looks at his beautiful world full of his own children, and he sees one guy raised in a frum household, grown up stayed frum and raised a frum family, then sees another guy who was raised with zero affiliation and commitment to Torah, but somehow got involved with MO and keeps kashrus, shabbos, TaHa, but wears jeans and watches tv etc, does he love one more? I apologize for the run on sentence, I am just trying to get my point across before I go to sleep. I hope feif un does not leave the CR, I don’t want to either, people just need to be more sensitive to their fellow yidden. I know that I am not the only one in here from a modern background who became frummer. I also know that I am not the only one who is not wiring off my parents as worthless Jews who don’t know how to keep a mitzvah.

  • #941476

    Health
    Participant

    MorahRach -“If a person is raised with almost no affiliation, save those trips to “temple” on the high holidays with their parents, HOW do they know better? If someone is raised like that, and then the hand that reaches out to them and helps them embrace Judaism is in fact Modern Orthodox, how I ask do they know better then to associate with that sect? No one here is arguing what is technically right and wrong. I for one wasn’t.”

    Yes, MO is better than totally Frei.

    “What upset me is the dismissal of these so called apikorsus Jews that you don’t deem worthy of a handshake. When Hashem looks at his beautiful world full of his own children, and he sees one guy raised in a frum household, grown up stayed frum and raised a frum family, then sees another guy who was raised with zero affiliation and commitment to Torah, but somehow got involved with MO and keeps kashrus, shabbos, TaHa, but wears jeans and watches tv etc, does he love one more? I apologize for the run on sentence, I am just trying to get my point across before I go to sleep. I hope feif un does not leave the CR, I don’t want to either, people just need to be more sensitive to their fellow yidden. I know that I am not the only one in here from a modern background who became frummer. I also know that I am not the only one who is not wiring off my parents as worthless Jews who don’t know how to keep a mitzvah.”

    This is the problem here. You took one guy’s post and attributed it to the rest of us. And you aren’t the only one. Why get on the defensive? I, even though I’m a Yeshivish FFB, called him out for that comment. So maybe one person or a few have to be more sensitive, by & large, I think most posters here are sensitive.

    I will not apologize for any comments I made concerning Halacha, nor will I feel guilty for some poster’s ridiculous comments.

    There are Halachos of Negia and Tzinus, and if these are lacking in some parts of the MO community, then these have to be addressed. Crying Wolf doesn’t change the reality!

  • #941477

    MorahRach
    Member

    In what sense was I crying wolf?

  • #941478

    Borough Park Mensch
    Participant

    There is a word for this thread, revolting!

    Alot of people who go to MO schools are not religious and in fact many people who go to MO shuls like Young Israels and the like are not reglious either, but they are Pro-relgious. Meaning they like the religion but have limits.

    Posted by zahavasdad.

    As a proud member of the Young Israel-Beth El of Borough Park let me inform you that you know nothing about my congregation.

    Further, and speaking only on my own behalf, if you feel this way, then please stay out of my shul! After all, how can you trust us to have a proper minyan? And maybe our sifrei Torah are considered pasul at least to the twisted perceptions of some people.

    Oh, and my personal favorite, if we aren’t good enough Jews for you, then don’t drop in to hear our chazan and choir! I am offended by the idea my contributions are paying for a service you might enjoy. Then again, why should you? Our shul clearly doesn’t measure up to your standards of sinas chinam!

    I see whatever frame of mind we were supposed to be in for Yom Kippur has sadly already left a number of people.

  • #941479

    Health
    Participant

    MorahRach -“In what sense was I crying wolf?”

    This is crying Wolf – attributing one guy’s comments to the rest of us:

    “I think it has finally happened. This is the most offensive thread I have ever seen. No wonder why so many people go OTD. Calling MO people apikorus?”

  • #941480

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    About a week ago Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a well regarded MO rabbi from New Jersey, referenced on his site a new study that finds that 50% of the graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbos or Kashrus observant within two years of their graduation. This shocking statistic came only a year after another study found that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvos.

    So am I to understand that the ones who don’t go to secular college are going OTD at even higher rates?

    And if we assume half of them go to college, then we’d have to say that 75% of those who don’t go OTD! Amazing.

    IOW: why are we getting worked up over a clearly false set of data?

  • #941481

    MorahRach
    Member

    That’s not what crying wolf means…

    Anyway, I am not calling everyone out but there is a certain tone in this thread, and hundreds of others, that say the same thing. Don’t tell me/us not to overreact and get so defensive. Some, not all, of the things said in this thread were very hurtful and offensive, if you don’t want people to cry foul then don’t write it.

  • #941482

    Health
    Participant

    MorahRach -“That’s not what crying wolf means..”

    Yes, it does. Complaining about a prob that doesn’t exist.

    “Anyway, I am not calling everyone out but there is a certain tone in this thread, and hundreds of others, that say the same thing. Don’t tell me/us not to overreact and get so defensive. Some, not all, of the things said in this thread were very hurtful and offensive, if you don’t want people to cry foul then don’t write it.”

    I already posted above: “Exactly and we will continue to post Halacha here whether some types of Jews are offended.”

    I will not stop posting, even if Halacha is Not PC and seems to be “hurtful and offensive”!

  • #941483

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Popa,

    Niskatnu hadoros. This study is a year more current.

  • #941484

    A non published,non described, non peer reviewed, psychological study. I’ve published a few medical papers (not as the first author) and until there is data this is completely meaningless.

  • #941485

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    IOW: why are we getting worked up over a clearly false set of data?

    Because there are some bored people who like to fill their time by putting down other people (and this seems to be occurring on both sides).

  • #941486

    Naftush
    Member

    Yeshivishsocrates1, what are those things that Modern Orthodoxy omits against the Creator’s will? Can you give us a list?

  • #941487

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @ Borough Park Mensch

    The People I am talking about do not live in Borough Park, they live in more outlining areas. There are plenty of Young Israels that are Yeshivish. If you go for example to the Young Israel of Far Rockaway, its more or less Yeshivish (not 100%, but pretty close)

    Go to a Young Israel in an outlying area or out of town, Maybe one with 50 familes. Many do not have daily minyans because they cant get it.

    The definition of MO is very broad and Ill agree with the statment some on MO are more Modern than orthodox. And I suspect the study is likely more referring to those people.

  • #941488

    sushee
    Member

    You think Rabbi Pruzansky gave a false set of data?

  • #941489

    MorahRach
    Member

    Is it Halacha to say that modern orthodoxy is apikorsus?

  • #941490

    sushee
    Member

    Why would he? It is about his own community and he is the last person to publish a set of data that is questionable. And yet he does cite these figures. Regardless, he certainly is in the ballpark. If it’s 40% instead of 50%, then it’s good?

  • #941491

    Borough Park Mensch,

    “Oh, and my personal favorite, if we aren’t good enough Jews for you, then don’t drop in to hear our chazan and choir! I am offended by the idea my contributions are paying for a service you might enjoy. Then again, why should you? Our shul clearly doesn’t measure up to your standards of sinas chinam!”

    Absolutely right! Love it!

    IMHO if R Aron a”h would be alive today, I think hed be very comfortable in the YU Bais Medrash with the independent Mistapek b’Muat learners there. Possibly more comfortable than with some (the materialistic, demanding percentile) of the Lakewood Kollel. Please refer to my opinion stated in an earlier post, for clarification.

  • #941492

    sushee
    Member

    Right, since you are lacking the “scientific” data you are going to let the second largest group of Orthodox Jews go to pot and virtually assimilate into goyim. You’re going to wait until you receive “peer reviewed, psyschological” data before you take action to stem this terrible tide.

    Just sit there, relax, don’t worry too much. Dismiss the data showing large segments of modern orthodoxy — whatever the large percentage exactly is — become irreligious secularites. You can wait to start worrying once you see all the methodologies, authors and subjects. Until then we can pretend everything is nice and pretty.

  • #941493

    vochindik
    Member

    MSS: You’ve got to be kidding. I cited Rav Ahron’s published opinion in Mishnas Rabi Aharon on the previous page of this thread:

    Shocking Study of Modern Orthodox OTD Rate

    Rav Aharon and Rav Schneur (like Rav Elchonon hy’d) would under no circumstances walk into YU. At the funeral of a close friend of Rav Schneur that was taking place there, he had his driver circle the building until the procession came outside, at which point he joined.

  • #941494

    The head of a “Modern Orthodox” school contacted Rabbi Pruzansky regarding the results of this study. See below for the money quote.

    Relying on an oral report? Sounds like ancedotal evidence at best and typical wolf crying that seems to be standard procedure within the “chinuch” system.

    I Would not be suprised to see this retracted in the very near future.

    However, everyone here has already made up their minds and the people who feel like their derech is vindicated by the study will cheer and feel better about themselves while overlooking their own failures. While the MO crowd will continue to seek approval from people who will never consider them to be truely part of “Klal Yisroel”

  • #941495

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I happen to know Feif Un outside the Coffee Room. We’re good friends. I spoke to him about this thread, and he gave me the ok to write about our conversation.

    He really is gone from the CR. He had been considering it for a while and decided the time had come.

    He’s mentioned before that he had a rough time spiritually growing up. He had some very rough times in yeshiva – he had bad rabbeim, bad experiences with the so-called “elter bachurim”, and other things. These things drove him away from his right-wing upbringing. For a while he wasn’t frum at all. He didn’t keep Shabbos. He didn’t keep kosher. He was dating a girl who was in a sorority in college.

    Despite the rough times, he decided, on his own, to become frum again. Because of the rough times he had, he went with the Modern Orthodox route. This also caused him problems, with family and friends who didn’t approve of his choices. But he still fought back, and became frum again. In time, his family and friends saw how sincere he was as a Modern Orthodox Jew, and came to respect him for it.

    He told me that seeing comments here such as these:

    “Modern Orthodoxy is apikorsus”

    “If it’s M, it ain’t O. If it’s U, it ain’t Y. If it ain’t D, it’s OTD.”

    “Modern Orthodox were never on the derech if someone knows better then not to go against Hashem and he does it anyway then he is off the Derech Hashem.

    A modern orthodox person is worse then some1 who is completly off (if they were never on to begin with) bc it seems that modern orthodox ppl know the right things to do and the proper ways to serve Hashem but they choose to live a Modern Orthodox lifestlye as oppose to a regular Orthodox lifestyle they choose to be off the derech knowingly…Hashem should have mercy on the modern orthodox people that know they’re doing wrong and continue living there foolish ways living in denial of true service to Hashem…God willing they will realize that they are fooling no one except themselves and start to serve Hashem properly…”

    just remind him of why he left the path of Judaism years ago. He said that every time he hears people talking like that, for a second, he feels regret that he came back to frum Judaism.

    I don’t understand how the so-called moderators can allow statements like those to be published. I know that I once spoke to Rabbi Yaakov Bender after he gave a speech on the internet, and asked him about the “frum” sites – such as YWN. He told me the Rabbonim on the Moetzes are against them, and tried to get YWN shut down, but the owner of the site ignored them. Now I understand why they were so against it.

    The site needs a major overhaul in terms of the content allowed here. The Mods need to do a better job.

  • #941496

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    actually, after seeing the postings, it would be useful to see the so-called study that rabbi Pruzansky is referring to. I do not believe that it is true. Not by a long shot.To quote an anonymous, mysterious and unkonwn study is the height of hypocrisy.As in everything, show the study! Till then, I don’t believe it.

  • #941497

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Love the backpedalling here. Its funny to watch these posters keep tripping themselves up while doing so.

    Ha.

  • #941498

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Sushee,

    What are you doing about it?

    Crisis,

    As a Modern Orthodox rabbi, wouldn’t Rabbi Pruzansky have a pretty good sense of how many young adults his from community go OTD, even without firm data? (Although honestly, from an outsider’s perspective 50% seems to me to be a gross exaggeration).

  • #941499

    Sushee No one is saying that problems should not be addressed. We are attacking what is basically a fictional study being used by people here to impugn a large segment of Yiddishkeit.

    In addition some of us believe that actions are louder than negative criticism spouted in post 99 on some blog.

  • #941500

    sushee
    Member

    I don’t understand the nitpicking. Rabbi Pruzansky says the study shows 50% MO OTD. Even if he is off a bit, we know we are dealing with a substantial percentage.

    Instead of whining, let’s do something to change the dynamics. Rabbi Pruzansky identified quite a number of issues in the community.

  • #941501

    on the ball
    Member

    I’ve been thinking a lot about all this and, not sure if you’ll agree with me but this is my conclusion. I think it’s probably important to differentiate between:

    1) Modern Orthodoxy as a Hashkafa; and

    2) Behavioural trends within the MO community.

    Let’s take No.1) As a Hashkafa, MO differs as far as I can tell only regards to 3 points:

    a) The Mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisrael (perhaps more relevant to Mizrachi)

    b)The concept of Daas Torah

    c)The value of learning Torah vs. Secular study for its own sake.

    I don’t believe any of these issues create in and of themselves issues of apikorsus ch’v although the last two possibly can lead in that direction if taken to the extreme.

    Let’s have a look at 2) – Behavioural trends. Well this is just a matter of fact. Within both the MO community and the Charedi community you have attitudes ranging from respect and self-sacrifice for the Halacha to a don’t care attitude. Now it’s a question of percentages – in which community is there a larger percentage of families that genuinely care for the Halacha and Torah values and not just for show. I’ll leave this question open because I don’t know the answer.

  • #941502

    Health
    Participant

    MorahRach -“Is it Halacha to say that modern orthodoxy is apikorsus?”

    I don’t think so; and that’s why I was one of the first to challenge this post.

  • #941503

    golfer
    Participant

    MediumThink, it’s not that I disagree with your comment, but please, a little respect!! This is the YW CR, not, as you so insolently refer to it “some blog”!

  • #941504

    If anyone wonders why we are stuck in Galus, just read through this thread…

    We as Jews are our own worst enemy and sadly probably deserve what we have gotten since the beginning of time…

  • #941505

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I know Rabbi Pruzansky’ community pretty well and what happens there is totally at odds with what he said. A simple challenge: where is that study? where are those numbers? can you back up what you are saying? i don’t believe him.

  • #941506

    Im still basking in the warmth of the hundreds of inspirational profiles I read daily of Modern Orthodox singles, very much turning to the right religiously, and wondering if they were hand-delivered to me alone.

    Am I on my own planet?

  • #941507

    sushee
    Member

    rabbiofberlin: If Rabbi Pruzansky said the MO OTD rate is 50%, even if he is off, he is not going to be far off. So it isn’t 50%; is it 45%? 40%? 35%? Even if it is less, it is still a substantial percentage. He is not way off base. He is a Rov in one of the largest MO communities.

  • #941508

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I know Rabbi Pruzansky’ community pretty well and what happens there is totally at odds with what he said.

    I don’t have any first hand knowledge, but as I posted earlier, I’m also skeptical.

    Why would he fabricate a statistic which only demeans his own community? Strange.

  • #941509

    Kosher Ham
    Member

    Firstly:

    Can anyone point me to the “unpublished” study? Paul Shaviv, the head of Ramaz School in NY is quoted as:

    That being said, why is there all these comments without fact-checking first?

    This topic of discussion has led to comments on YWN with unbridled sinas chinam against the MO. The moderators need to do a better job of not posting those comments with vile sinas chinam. Is there any wonder why there’s no Bais HaMikdosh after nearly 2000 years? Sinas chinam is worse than the 3 major avairos one must die for rather than commit, if forced.

    Please, people, show some “V’ohavta l’rei’acha kamocha”.

    I would advise the moderators to remove the comments that espouse sinas chinam. I hope the moderators don’t condone those comments.

  • #941510

    @KosherHam

    I already pointed out that quote from HM

    People will go on saying whatever they want because it conforms to a preconceived notion or an existing bias.

    It wouldn’t suprise me in the least to hear this “study” cited in some drashos this Shabbous

  • #941511

    Borough Park Mensch
    Participant

    The People I am talking about do not live in Borough Park, they live in more outlining areas. There are plenty of Young Israels that are Yeshivish. If you go for example to the Young Israel of Far Rockaway, its more or less Yeshivish (not 100%, but pretty close)

    Posted by zahavasdad

    You essentially said all Young Israels. I take it you’re still not apologizing for the “rechilus” on my shul.

    By the way, maybe you can post a travel diary of the cross country tour you took of Young Israel shuls to give you the first hand knowledge on which you base your lashon hara. I’m especially interested in the Young Israel of Phoenix How was the outdoor shiur next to the chiminea?

  • #941512

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Crisis and Kosher Ham,

    Quoting HM as proof of something? What have you been smoking?

    As far as you talikng about others “perconceived biases” don’t you think that might be a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

    Would you care to look at your last five comments? Or does your “money and yichus” exempt you? Feh to you.

  • #941513

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Crisis,

    I would hope you would hear it in some drashos, it would mean the Rabbonim in your community feel that it is something that needs addressing. This is a major crisis.

  • #941514

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Harry Moraless is about as real as Kosher Ham. He makes things up all the time. And when he is caught red handed it switches to “well even if not exactly true, it could have been”. That you are quoting as proof of anything speaks very little about you.

  • #941515

    golfer

    I accept your tochach and retract my offending statement that referred, chalila, to the YWN CR as some blog.

  • #941516

    Sam2
    Member

    Everyone wants to be a victim. No one ever wants to be the aggressor. Thus, no one sees any post that they in essence agree with as being hateful. But there are posts, from both sides, that come across as incredibly hate-filled.

  • #941517

    dhl144
    Member

    SAM2: I am taliking about exactly what Modern Orthodox Jews are:People that know what the right things to do are, the proper ways to serve Hashem, yet they still choose to live a more Modern lifestyle but still keeping the misvot that they feel important and won’t conflict with their Modern way of living….People that know how to properly serve Hashem yet choose to serve Hashem w/o the proper care and dedication that they know as correct, bc it’s not modern way of living… Hashem should have mercy on them and put it in there minds to do and live by what they know in their hearts is correct.

  • #941518

    @nishtdayngesheft

    Kosher Ham and I were quoting a guest post writen by Paul Shaviv who is the head of RAMAZ.

    Read it again, Paul spoke to Rabbi Pruzansky regarding some of the data and methods used in the study and Rabbi Pruzansky admitted that he was relying on an oral report.

    Whatever issues you have with HM are not relevant here as this was a guest post by a third party.

    I’m sure that wherever these “numbers” are somewhat applicable it will be addressed, my comment however was more about how this might creep into a drasha as a “look how much better we are then them” type message.

    But feel free to dismiss me for my uber sarcastic comments and my insightful barbs and splashes of reality.

  • #941519

    Mammele
    Participant

    MSS: this topic is really too hot for me to tackle but I still feel the need to add my two cents. It’s nice to hear about the sincere singles and couples you are dealing with — however in all fairness is it not likely that those abandoning yiddishkeit aren’t sending you their shidduch profiles?

    Also, all of us should remember that a Yid can not remain stagnant, we either grow spiritually or fall. If someone is holding on to only a few mitzvos to start with, when he (or she) falls it is only these few precious mitzvos that are “available” to be dropped.

    At the other end of the spectrum are the sincere MOs a few posters mentioned whose idealism allows them to take great strides. They have a good, knowledgeable starting point with lots of room for growth, which in turn spurs them further. Counter that with “frum” ffbs which when they become lax in their observance [most] drop minor stuff first, and either continue to drop or hopefully mature spiritually and pick themselves up without major harm having been done. OTHD too many are disillusioned and don’t have the drive to grow as their yiddishkeit was handed to them on a silver platter. (the yiddish monthly ma’alos had a good article on this last point a few months ago.)

    Those that do strive for more hopefully won’t be ridiculed here and elsewhere as being fanatic — tolerance should go both ways.

    Last point, I don’t recall who mentioned it but it’s not exactly true that “especially chasidic” disown their OTD kids.

  • #941520

    Englishman
    Member

    No one has yet offered any coherent explanation as to why Rabbi Pruzansky, a modern orthodox rabbi with much direct experience (and commentary) in what is going on in the modern orthodox world, would publish statistics that would make modern orthodoxy look really bad, if it isn’t rooted in fact.

    My take is that whatever the merits of the precise percentages, the overall point is that the statistics are really really bad. Rabbi Pruzansky may have mentioned the study, but he in fact speaks from first-hand pulpit experience in that community.

  • #941521

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    my comment however was more about how this might creep into a drasha as a “look how much better we are then them” type message.

    I guess you’ve don’t frequent chareidi rabbonim’s drashos. Why do you assume that the themes are about putting others down? And isn’t that assumption actually demeaning chareidim, by assuming that it’s most important issue (or at least an important issue) is putting down the MO? This is not at all the case, in my experience (nor the reverse when I’ve heard drashos from MO rabbis).

  • #941522

    Sam2
    Member

    dhl: You didn’t say anything meaningful. What does “living a more modern lifestyle” entail? What is involved in that (whatever that means) that makes someone an improper Oved Hashem? You defined “Modern Orthodox” as… “Orthodox but Modern”? I don’t even know how to categorize that. Give a definition that has some actual substance in it please.

  • #941523

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Mr. Crisis,

    I am fully aware you think you were being sharp. However, I think that you are so wrapped in trying to deny that there can very well be a problem that you would rather deflect than deal with an issue of major proportions.

    You are so busy harping that this may be an oral report, I am telling you that an even an alleged oral report is more reliable than anything on HM’s blog, regardless of who purportedly wrote it. HM is a fabricator. Both you and Ham said it was “quoted” on HM’s blog, not that it was written by Shaviv. Make up your mind. I wouldn’t know, I don’t look at his little blog anymore. It apparently is agreed by all that R Pruzansky quoted this study. Do you think R Pruzansky is foolish? Why do you think he mentioned if not because he is concerned and it probably concurs with his observations as well.

    As far as the “look how much better we are then them” it seems that almost every one of your posts tries to do just that.

    Take a step back, and if you are even a tiny bit as smart as you think you might be, you would see that.

    I am not happy with such a report, any such report about any group of yidden disturbs me greatly. I am bothered that there is chilul Shabbos. Talk about “overlooking their own failures” or” a preconceived notion or an existing bias”.

    I wonder why you think you were being so sharp, any one of your “Uber” comments seemed to apply more appropriately to yourself.

    I know where you were trying to go, I guess I was too many steps ahead of you and you mistakenly thought I have no clue. I guess you think you have money and yichus and that makes up for your simple comments.

  • #941525

    Mods: How is ItcheSrulik’s attack on a big mo rav like Rabbi Pruzansky allowed here?

  • #941526

    Kosher Ham
    Member

    @nishtdayngesheft

    You wrote in your previous post:

    Both you and Ham said it was “quoted” on HM’s blog, not that it was written by Shaviv. Make up your mind.

    This is a falsehood on your part. I clearly wrote, unambiguously:

    Paul Shaviv, the head of Ramaz School in NY is quoted as:

    You owe me and possibly Crisis an apology after saying we didn’t do something that we did do, indeed. Could I possibly be more clear than I was and you more wrong than you were about your falsehood?

    When I post, I try very hard to keep opinions out of my postings and to stick to facts. I might not succeed each and every time, but I personally feel with an attitude like that, my posting contributes a viewpoint without personal attacks. You might want to give it a try for yourself. It could even improve your middos.

    Try not to be like Curly from the 3 Stooges, who says, “I’m trying to think, but nothing happens!”.

  • #941527

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People are quoting a certain blog about this “study” I wonder how many would read todays entry and comment on it.

  • #941528

    truthsharer
    Member

    Because it will draw more visitors to this site, which in turn increases ad impressions on this site.

  • #941529

    The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite, I agree!

    Clowns?

    If Rabbi Pruzansky hasnt turned a blind eye to molesters abusers and criminals, like some do, hes already a Tzadik in my eyes!

    Who are the real clowns? Is he judging by the kind of hat they wear?

  • #941531

    PuhLease
    Member

    @dolphina,

    Brava (Bravo?)

    Thank you.

  • #941532

    HaKatan
    Participant

    As a concept, MO is, at best, a (mistaken) horaas shaah (from decades ago). (The Zionism part is hopelessly misguided, but that’s not the point here.) That’s as far as the ideology.

    In practice, however, there are different types of MO.

    There are many frum MO who are talmidei chachamim and yireiei shamayim who do not look down upon or ignore CH”V any mitzvos. Due to their environment, education and/or other reasons, some of their standards may still be somewhat lower than they should be, but their hashkafa of 100% shemiras mitzvos, is nonetheless still intact.

    There are others, however, who “pick and choose”.

    This includes things like men going to broadway shows (they earn the halachic status of rasha, liChol haDeios, unless it’s an all-male show) and (married) women not covering their hair at all, going mixed swimming, et al. Not to mention other hataras issurim. If, one generation later, this group is at 50% (of whom are still either MO or else moved on to traditional orthodox), that’s not exactly shocking, as the above stories from those on campus and in schools indicate. Hashem yishmor.

    Regarding MikeHall, your words are by far the worst I’ve seen on this thread. “We deserve everything we got?” because your holy sensitivities are offended? A place like YWN CR is a good place for people to understand what different ideologies represent, and how that fits in with normative Judaism’s outlook.

    (This thread is definitely NOT why we are in galus. Though, in so many ways, Zionism certainly hasn’t helped and isn’t helping any, if you really are concerned about galus.)

  • #941533

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Englishman posted a comment from Rabbi Pruzansky’s blog that talks about a MO school with MO teachers. There was an article a while ago, either in Jewish Action or YI Viewpoint, that said that there are not enough MO limudei kodesh teachers, so many MO schools hire yeshivish teachers. Obviously, it varies from school to school. In any case, Rabbi Pruzansky’s message was aimed primarily at parents.

  • #941534

    Machshavos
    Member

    Are there moderators on this thread? How do you allow such slander of rabbis and bloggers?

  • #941535

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are others, however, who “pick and choose”.

    This includes things like men going to broadway shows (they earn the halachic status of rasha, liChol haDeios, unless it’s an all-male show) and (married) women not covering their hair at all, going mixed swimming, et al. Not to mention other hataras issurim. If, one generation later, this group is at 50% (of whom are still either MO or else moved on to traditional orthodox), that’s not exactly shocking, as the above stories from those on campus and in schools indicate. Hashem yishmor.

    Now MO are Rashim.

    And what do you call people who go to Secular Court to fight over an inheritance.

  • #941536

    mommamia22
    Member

    This thread nauseates me to the pit of my stomach.

    Please, tell me, those of you who feel the need to analyze the mo community, were you considering joining it?

    Why would you feel the need to analyze it unless you were going to do something about it?

    Furthermore, I ask sincerely, how many of you actually took the suggestions given to strengthen your Yiddishkeit to heart and actually did something about it?

    I did. In numerous ways.

    Frankly, my guess is that pretty much most of you didn’t do anything different than you did last shabbos.

    This thread has done little to help anyone, sadly.

    A website that caters to people who considers themselves oh so frum but can’t elicit improved middos or kiyum shabbos, needs reflection.

  • #941537

    avhaben
    Participant

    Instead of all the hand-wringing and talk, we need action. We need to start being mekarev, with kiruv outreach efforts, towards our Modern Orthodox brethren at-risk of assimilation R”L. Where are all the kiruv organizations? In addition to reaching out to the Reform, Conservative and secular yidden, they must extend their efforts to MO communities around the country.

  • #941538

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Time for a new graph titled “Will Your Grandchildren Be Shomer Shabbos”?

  • #941539

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    mommamia – if these people were standing in front of you would you give them the time of day? I wouldn’t even feign politeness. Move on for your own sake.

  • #941540

    golfer
    Participant

    Mikehall, we, the Jewish people, do not “probably deserve what we have gotten since the beginning of time” as you wrote. We most definitely deserve every punishment and tzara that has ever befallen us. The judgment of H-m is perfect in every way; there is never any question of a person suffering through something they do not deserve.

    What I find extremely offensive is when people like you presume to tell us why we deserve to be in Galus. There have been great Talmidei Chachamim who have pointed out areas of improper behaviour or lax observance that can cause, or already caused, troubles to come upon us. But for the common man (I’m sorry if you find it insulting to be included in this category) the proper approach is to examine our own deeds and see where there is room for personal improvement; not to point fingers and decide that we are privy to understanding the workings of HKB”H, which most of us cannot fathom.

  • #941541

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    mommamia

    How do you know no one improved? It happens to be we did. We took an extra effort in Chinuch matters outlined in sensible OP’s suggestions.

    The world is not totally made out of mean, obnoxious inhabitants.

  • #941542

    Did anything positive come out of this post yet?

  • #941543

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ZahavasDad, when you wrote “Now MO are Rashim”, I presume you meant “rishaim” and that you erroneously based your slander on my post. I certainly did not write the slander you wrote, and my post was quite clear to that effect.

    (Also, two wrongs do not make a right, as you surely learned in Kindergarten, so I don’t understand what the relevance is of certain people’s use of archaos.)

    But on the off-chance you are asking sincerely and since you seemed to have missed my explicit and clear statement of when one would be considered a rasha, I will elaborate.

    One (i.e. a Jewish male, regardless of sect/affiliation) who, given an alternative, intentionally goes to a(n) street/path/area where he knows he will encounter pritzus is called a rasha. Again, this applies to any Jew, MO or otherwise. Ergo, a male who attends a Broadway show, EVEN IF HE IS SURE HE WILL NOT LOOK, is a rasha just for having gone, before he is over any further issurim.

    Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars and MO posts in the past here have referenced how some MO go to Broadway shows, that was the relevance of this halacha to this thread. It was, once more, not a reflection on the entire MO population.


    mommamia22, I disagree. As I’ve posted before, and to borrow from the Syms slogan, an educated consumer is our best consumer. To be the best Eved Hashem one can be, one should know the best way to serve Hashem and the pitfalls of other isms and movements like Zionism and MO (among others). The point is not to randomly bash them, CH”V, but to educate us.

  • #941544

    avhaben
    Participant

    Perhaps some folks took up Rabbi Pruzansky’s wise suggestions to alleviate the problems and hopefully correct the terrible situation.

  • #941545

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I don’t take offense at most of the stuff on this blog regarding MO as I am secure in my beliefs and hashkafa and I am not looking for nor do I need the approbation of posters. At the same time, I do expect no less from the yeshivish/chareidi posters. My opinion’s shouldn’t affect them in the least.

    All I ask is use the same criteria. Would you accept the kashrus of a restaurant based upon a story in which Rabbi Pruznansky said he only had an oral report but didn’t know who gave the hashgacha, where the meat comes from, or if they used a mashgiach. Of course not. But enough people insist on citing the report despite no knowledge of the reports author, criteria , methodology or detail.

  • #941546

    Englishman
    Member

    Rabbi Pruzansky’s main point was that MO parents should correct the way they are bringing up their children. He was hardly focused on the precise percentage of OTD MO children. That was a sidepoint when he was pointing out the extent of the crisis and the need to change how their children are brought up. His point was, primarily, the suggestions he offered to correct what is broken.

  • #941547

    truthsharer
    Member

    hakatan: “Since in MO periodicals, it is perfectly normal to read reviews about bars “

    It’s funny because the yeshivish think it’s a halacha to start their relationship in a bar.

    As for saying things are 100% assur, people far greater than you have said otherwise.

  • #941548

    mommamia22
    Member

    HaKatan

    That’s pure nurishkeit.

    No one here needs to know what is supposedly wrong in the mo perspective unless he/she is planning to join their community (which, I’m guessing not).

    Why do you need to be educated about it if you’re not considering joining it? Have you already learned kol hatorah kula?

    Gedolei hador need to know because they are the leaders who guide people WITH SHAILAHS from all walks of life.

    It’s funny to me that those people who came from a mo background who worked on their Yiddishkeit don’t attribute the same evils to the community and way of life that those who came from a yeshivish background do. And please don’t raise the argument that it came from Rabbi Pruzansky who is from that community.

    Frankly, any column with analysis that does not include hard scientific facts but observation is not worth it’s weight in water and shouldn’t even have been printed, let alone quoted here. That is just irresponsible journalism and creates sinas chinam.

    It’s interesting that only Zeeskite and I posted that we made any changes.

    Who else did??

  • #941549

    mommamia22
    Member

    This thread reminds me of a story my father told about a visit he made to eretz yisrael.

    My father is a clean shaven man. Once a young chassidishe boy came over to him and said “du bist a yid”?

    My father was furious and outraged that a child could grow up thinking that despite wearing a yarmulke, a man might not even be Jewish without a beard.

    And that, my friends, is closed mindedness at it’s best.

  • #941550

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Englishman,your point is valid but only applicable to his shul. The report is being used to apply to all MO, which without the details and author, shouldn’t be done

  • #941551

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    My father is a clean shaven man. Once a young chassidishe boy came over to him and said “du bist a yid”?

    My father was furious and outraged that a child could grow up thinking that despite wearing a yarmulke, a man might not even be Jewish without a beard.

    And that, my friends, is closed mindedness at it’s best.

    I disagree.

    It is quite normal for little kids to think that other jews look like the ones they see every day. The kids father never showed him a clean shaven jew with a yarlmuke and said “goy”! And besides, the arabs in yerushalaim also cover their heads with a kippa looking thing frequently.

    Anyone else in that situation would have said, “how cute”, and understood where the kid was coming from–instead of being upset.

    And that my friends, is closed-mindedness at its best.

  • #941553

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    lesschumras – I loved your last post. Except this line, which to me means you are who you say they are.At the same time, I do expect no less from the yeshivish/chareidi posters. My opinion’s shouldn’t affect them in the least.

    I grew up frum but not chareidi, we were unbelievably prejudiced and condescending toward everything about them from their dress to the names they gave their children. When I became chareidi I expected things would be different but it isn’t. Not an iota. And we both thought we were right. And we were BOTH wrong, just in different ways.

    B”H my husband and I have found a circle of friends who have risen to higher places in their adom l’chaveiro and are good role models for us.

  • #941554

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I really can’t understand why this topic is still around. There is still nothing constructive going on here, only pointless bickering that serves no purpose other than to offend people.

    Mods, can you please not only close this thread, but delete it entirely? It serves no purpose other than to highlight the unfortunate chasm that still exists between observant Jews.

    Rabbi Pruzansky laid out some things that will help our children grow up frum. I’m going to lay out something that I believe will bring us closer to the geulah, where it will be evident to all that the Torah way is the only proper way. Instead of looking at the negative in people and their way of life, let’s focus on the positive, and not write derogatory remarks about anyone. The Beis HaMikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam. Let’s work on our ahavas Yisrael – even going above and beyond the basic requirements – and in this way, bring Mashiach.

  • #941555

    avhaben
    Participant

    This is an extremely valuable thread. Rabbi Pruzansky shlita brings much to the table with his raising the cries of this OTD crisis, and much more importantly Rabbi Pruzansky’s very wise suggestions to his own MO brethren.

    Rabbi Pruzansky’s column should be read out as a Shabbos drasha at every MO shul.

  • #941556

    mommamia22
    Member

    Popa

    Really?!?!

    Have you EVER heard of a kid from a modern background looking at a chassidishe kid and ask “are you Jewish???”

    Nonsense!

  • #941557

    HaKatan
    Participant

    mommamia22, I’m sorry you feel that pulling the wool over your eyes is better than knowing the truth, but I prefer the latter.

    And, yes, I still maintain that everyone, not just rabbanim, should know the truth about any “derech” that they (or their kids) might be exposed to and MO is certainly in that category unless you live and work in certain monolithic neighborhoods.

    Besides, what do you have to hide? IF you feel MO is valid, then defend it rather than covering it up.

  • #941558

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You’re saying nonsense. You expect the parents in meah sheorim to have a picture of book entitled “types of jews”, where they will point out each one and say “this is a teimani, this is a bucharian, this is a chardal, this is a dati, this is someone from the five towns, this is someone from chicago.”

    MO kids don’t grow up in insular neighborhoods, because such neighborhoods don’t exist. If they did, then I expect they would be very surprised the first time they saw a chossid, who would look nothing like the jews where they were from.

  • #941559

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    mommamia – we used to look at people who didn’t wear a kipa or who wore pants and ask them if they were Jewish. My mother would be horrified and the person was HIGHLY offended. They, of course, assumed that that was what my mother taught us. But she didn’t. Little kids say – “I wear ____ because I am a Jew, if you don’t, you must not be”.

  • #941560

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have a friend who is a Rabbi , He got his simicha from YU.

    He got a job at a Satmar Yeshiva, The kids used to call him a Goy

  • #941561

    missme
    Member

    Interesting discussion. Does anyone have any theories as to why the proportion of people who go OTD is 10 times higher in the modern orthodox communities than it is in the chareidi communities?

    (I see there is a lot of discussion on the exactitude of the 50% figure, but even if it is off it is obvious we are dealing with a huge number.)

  • #941562

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zahavasdad – I hate hearing those stories as they do make my blood boil, but on the flip side (I have an annoying habit of always looking at the flip side) the Satmar adults who hired him must not have shared that view.

  • #941563

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    sushee (and some others): I have not posted on this website often recently and only because the headline (quoting Rabbi Pruzansky) caught my eye did I comment. To Sushee: as you saw from others, this mysterious study does not exist. It was a sad mistake for rabbi Pruzansky to use this because it was “an oral report”, more like loshon horah, actually.

    It is a preposterous opinion and the fact is that- on the contrary- many.many more students who are not frum become frum when going to a jewish (even MO) school.Look around you and you will see hundreds-thousands-of baalei teshuva who were influenced by MO teachers and even leaders of a different kind – like R”Shlomo Carlebach zz’l whose yahrzeit is tomorrow night. May he continue being a meilitz josher for all of us.

  • #941564

    missme
    Member

    Listen, if a well known and very respected modern orthodox rabbi can cite a figure of 50%, even if it is off it is going to be in the ballpark. Is 50% an overestimate? We don’t have proof either way. It might be an overestimate. It might be an underestimate. Or it might be right on target. But even if it is off, it is not going to be widely off the mark, otherwise it is inconceivable such a highly respected rabbi — who himself is modern orthodox! in one of the largest MO communities in the world! who has a lot of experience with MO families with his rabbinical/pastoral pulpit position, being the rov of a shul with 600 (yes, 600) MO families — would cite the figure.

    Rabbi Pruzansky doesn’t need a study to see the extent and magnitude of the problem. He experiences it every day in his line of work.

  • #941565

    What is the percentage of kids and young adults going OTD in Williamsburg and Monroe?

  • #941566

    shlishi
    Member

    There is only anecdotal evidence, but from much first-hand experience, I’d estimate it to be in the ballpark of 1%. (If by OTD you mean no longer frum as opposed to going from one Chasidus to another; becoming a Litvak; or getting lax in some mitzvos.)

  • #941568

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is only anecdotal evidence, but from much first-hand experience, I’d estimate it to be in the ballpark of 1%.

    I am sure it is higher than 1%. Then again, I am sure that the kids who you think only became non-chassidish, that many of them are really not shomer shabbos either but don’t want you to know.

  • #941569

    shlishi
    Member

    Why would you guess it to be higher than 1%? And why do you think some who only appear to have left Chasidus actually left Yiddishkeit altogether?

    I believe the Yeshivish OTD rate is slightly higher than the Chasidish rate, but also not much more than 1%.

  • #941570

    shlishi, “I believe the Yeshivish OTD rate is slightly higher than the Chasidish rate…”.

    Something tells me that its the reverse! IMHO, I think youre way off.

    If you ever chance upon any of the many OTD websites:

    1- The English and grammar of most of the posts is horrendous.

    2- Yiddish terms that are used in Chassidishe homes are used. Litvish kids know how to spell and are much better at grammar. Litvish/Yeshivish kids are really not well versed in these Yiddish phrases.

    3- Many of theses websites have people posting, speaking of their upbringing in Williamsburg and Monroe, etc and other extremely Chassidic areas. Many of the OTDers offer interviews and speak of their Chassidic upbringing.

  • #941571

    shlishi
    Member

    MSS: You are seriously basing your observation based upon anonymous web postings??? Forget about your attributions to authors backgrounds based upon their writing style, but the very idea of thinking you can get even a rough idea of the demographics based on postings from OTD websites is preposterous. Only a very small percentage of OTD people post on those crazy sites. And they are very far from being representative.

    I stand by my observations.

  • #941572

    shlishi, preposterous???? You dont even attempt to back up your opinion.

    Never mind your observations, Id like to hear what Kiruv professionals who speacialize in OTDers, have to say about what background/upbringing they deal with and hear of most.

  • #941573

    MSS – I am not a ‘kiruv professional’ nor do I have that much experience with OTDers, but I did tutor for a few years in a small yeshiva that catered to boys who didn’t fit the system and many of them could have been potentially at risk. From what I saw, those from a more Chasidish background who don’t fit the system are at a greater risk of becoming disillusioned than those from other backgrounds, followed by kids from very heavily insular non-Chasidic backgrounds (certain parts of Gateshead, the non-Chasidic Stamford Hill-ers etc.). The Sephardi kids seemed the least likely. Most of the boys from across the spectrum that were in the yeshiva when I tutored there are now either in mainstream yeshivas or are back on an even keel and, although they are no longer in yeshiva, they are solid bnei torah.

  • #941574

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The director of the Anti-Kiruv organization has said most of the people that go there are Chassidic although they are getting more and more Yeshivish

  • #941575

    zahavasdad, “The director of the Anti-Kiruv organization has said most of the people that go there are Chassidic…..”.

    If youre referring to the organization whose name starts with an “F”, they openly say on their website that they get their funding from organizations like UJA (shocking) to help those from Chassidic communities get education, but everyone knows, at the same time, they offer parties and trips on Shabbos and Yom Tov to secularize them. This has been going on for years. When asked about this publicly, they innocently answer that they offer Kosher food. Anyone going on their website, sees speakers and authors featured at lectures, who equate ultra religious people with cult members.

  • #941576

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Shlishi, but you’re willing to accept a nameless sourceless unseen report to support your numbers.The OTD % is not 50% but neither is it 1%

  • #941577

    daniela
    Member

    Hmmm….. MOs have a Rabbi and they treat him like that?

  • #941578

    I wonder if Rabbi Pruzansky, who is rightly bothered by the high OTD rate, collects funds for the UJA, the organization that encourages, and lessens the religiosity of those looking to go OTD, by its giving financial support to the organization with name starting with an “F”.

    I hope not!

    I have a dream!

    Wouldnt it be great if Modern Orthodox congregations would stop supporting the UJA, as long as the UJA encourages and motivates the OTD population in the abandonment of religious observance. Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.

  • #941579

    MDG
    Participant

    If the MO are going OTD then charaidi are also to blame. Quite a few of the Rebbes in the MO schools are Charaidi. Actually, there are not enough MO people that go into chinuch, so they hire many Charaidim.

    One can argue that the Charaidi Rebbes are not helping.

  • #941580

    MDG, “If the MO are going OTD then charaidi are also to blame…”

    My observation has been that there are way more Chassidim going OTD than Mod Orth.

    Once the Chassidim start going in that direction, and get involved in the organization with the name beginning with “F”, which is happily financed by UJA, and supported by Modern Orthodox synagogues, the Chassidic individuals leave Orthodoxy, and often Judaism of any kind, period.

    IMHO the Modern Orthodox themselves have less congregants going OTD than the Chassidim, but they support the organizations that help Chassidim move away from any form of Judaism.

    This is my biggest gripe with the Modern Orthodox movement. They financially support UJA, who fnancially support “F”.

  • #941581

    shlishi
    Member

    MSS: Rabbi Pruzansky has a lot more experience in dealing with the MO OTD crisis than you will ever have, with his large MO congregation. If he put the number at 50%, that is something he would know of from dealing with it. He wouldn’t publicize a percentage unless it bore out or at least correlates from what he was seeing firsthand in his own large community that he ministers.

    And I can advise you from my own experience dealing with otd fellows in the yeshivish and chasidish communities that the percentage there is not even a drop in the bucket compared to what Rabbi Pruzansky is relating. By us we are easily dealing in the low single-digits.

  • #941582

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Without defending the Anti-Kiruv organization. There needs to be a way for those who cannot live the Chassidic lifestyle to somewhat stay in the fold without them leaving 100%, It seems everyone knows that organizations name so they are fairly well known.

    I know many love that lifestyle , but obviously some dont and one of them became a famous author by writing how much she hated it. So there is some issue there too.

  • #941583

    zahavasdad,

    “There needs to be a way for those who cannot live the Chassidic lifestyle to somewhat stay in the fold without them leaving 100%”

    Agreed! I am very well aware of the author you speak of, and the many like her who all/most met/meet at “F” and get encouragement there to leave any form of observance of Judaism, financed by the UJA, financed by Modern Orthodox synagogues.

    Which is why I wrote:

    Perhaps an organization could be formed that provides an alternative to the OTD population by offering educational and employment programs within a context of pride and preservation of Jewish heritage.

  • #941584

    @zahavasdad

    I would actually go so far as to defend it, people who want out need a safe way to get there.

    Especially females who can fall down a much darker road in search of an exit..nothing more needs to be said on that.

    It’s a necessary evil, and if you want to put them out of business then there are two choices.

    1: build the ghetto walls even higher and employ a 1984 style level of surveliance on the inhabitants

    2: widen the derech a little bit so not everyone who doesnt fit in the box seeks the need for approval elsewhere.

  • #941585

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I haven’t written a check to UJA in decades and I have no idea what the organization beginning with F is.

  • #941586

    crisis:

    “widen the derech a little bit so not everyone who doesnt fit in the box seeks the need for approval elsewhere”.

    Brilliantly said! But an organization without hostility towards religious observance cant hurt!

  • #941587

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think by the time the people find that orgazination I think its too late, they have been so turned off by Yiddishkeit, it might be hopeless.

    1: build the ghetto walls even higher and employ a 1984 style level of surveliance on the inhabitants

    This is already done and it doesnt work, they mostly threaten not to let your kids in school

  • #941588

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    While I agree that such an organization is needed, I don’t ever see one coming to fruition.

    I don’t see Satmar* just sitting by while an organization that turns disgruntled Satmars into yeshivish or MO Jews is created. They would denounce such an organization and attempt to use their influence in the Orthodox world to have the organization shuttered.

    The Wolf

    * I don’t mean to pick on Satmar specifically. I think the same would hold true for most, if not all, chassidic groups. However, Satmar is one of the few with the clout to really make trouble for a pro-Orthodox organization that allows individuals to segue out of the chassidus.

  • #941589

    avhaben
    Participant

    Wolf: No such organization is needed any more than we need an organization to turn MO Jews into Satmar Chasidim. In fact, a much stronger case can be made for the latter, considering the tremendous OTD rate among MO Jews, and that it would be better to convince as many of them to become Yeshivish or Chasidish where the OTD rate is considerably less.

  • #941590

    dolphina
    Member

    A random statement: It impresses me how people state things they absolutely cannot possibly know with such absolute authority. Out of curiosity – how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? and if I have 2 pins, can double the number of angels dance? and….GO

  • #941591

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Avhaben (or whatever you call yourself these days),

    You;ve missed the entire point.

    There are Chassidic people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they leave the derech altogether, when they might just as easily remain on the derech and in the yeshivish or MO camps. (Now, I know you don’t consider MO on the derech at all and probably think they’re better off in a Reform Temple than in MO, but I’m going to ignore that for now). And so, there should be programs that allow them to go where they’re more comfortable and remain on the derech.

    And, to your point, if an MO person would be more comfortable in a chassidic setting, they should be allowed to follow that derech too.

    The Wolf

  • #941592

    Why not an organization that offers help and information on career and educational opportunities, lectures and social services from all branches of Orthodoxy, perhaps even Shadchanim, 😉 and not espousing any one specific Derech?

    Anything would be an improvement over the organization available now for the OTD population, which serves to bang the coffin nails of OTD leanings, permanently, by creating antagonism towards traditional observance.

  • #941593

    avhaben
    Participant

    There are Chassidic people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they leave the derech altogether

    And there are MO people who are unhappy with their lives in the fold. To escape, they too leave the derech altogether. (And this, in fact, occurs at a far higher rate among them, as R. Pruzansky noted.)

    And so, there should be programs that allow them to go where they’re more comfortable and remain on the derech.

    Ditto for the MO. 1) Why aren’t you advocating organizations to help transition MO Jews to a Chareidi way of life? 2) Why has only the reverse occurred to you?

  • #941594

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Ditto for the MO. 1) Why aren’t you advocating organizations to help transition MO Jews to a Chareidi way of life? 2) Why has only the reverse occurred to you?

    Did you even read what I wrote above:

    And, to your point, if an MO person would be more comfortable in a chassidic setting, they should be allowed to follow that derech too.

    The truth, however, is that there isn’t a need for organizations the other way. Yeshivish and MO Jews aren’t given the message that it’s either their way or OTD. They know that if they want to join a chassidus, all they have to do is approach them. It happens all the time.

    Chassidic people, on the other hand, are given the message that if they don’t follow in chassidus, then it’s little or no different than going OTD.

    The Wolf

  • #941595

    Wolf, “Chassidic people, on the other hand, are given the message that if they don’t follow in chassidus, then it’s little or no different than going OTD”.

    True in the majority of cases, but why lose these members to observant Judaism, just because the parents are fixed in their ways and theres only one organization known to help them? At the end of the day, in their heart of hearts, parents still prefer Modern Orthodox over non-practicing, intermarrying Jews.

    The sentiment you speak of, doesnt negate the need for an organization that welcomes these ex-Chasids, that isnt antagonistic towards religious observance.

  • #941596

    PuhLease
    Member

    This topic disgusts me..

    @health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”

    I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.

    Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.

    There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.

    All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.

    These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!”

  • #941597

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The sentiment you speak of, doesnt negate the need for an organization that welcomes these ex-Chasids, that isnt antagonistic towards religious observance.

    You missed what I wrote. I agreed with you that such an organization should exist. However, I also expressed pessimism about the practicality of it existing.

    The Wolf

  • #941598

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Avhaben,

    Why must you immediately make it a MO issue, especially since Wolf mentioned yeshivish and MO

    Wolf was correct. Children of friends have become Lubavitch, Belz ,and yeshivish

    and the parents adapted and accepted their choices with love. Nothing stops a MO child from making a choice so no organization is needed.

  • #941599

    PuhLease:

    If the slightest kernel of a seed has been planted in someone’s mind to start an organization serving the needs of the people we speak about and giving them an opportunity to live in the outside world while not abandoning pride of their heritage and observance, there will be almost nothing more beautiful than that.

    As right or as wrong as your opinions are…. the above holds true.

  • #941600

    HaKatan
    Participant

    PuhLease, your words seem to be an emotional gut-reaction, rather than a logical thought-out response.

    I don’t believe that understanding this topic is marchik Mashiach, but crying “Mashiach isn’t coming because…” is generally an erroneous feel-good excuse for covering up what shouldn’t be covered up.

    Emes is Hashem’s signature, and we are supposed to emulate Hashem in appropriate ways. This is one of those. There are times when tact and evasion may be called for (see Hashem’s response to Sara Imeinu last week), but this is clearly not one of those times when the truth should be covered up.

    Everyone should know the truth about our faith whose Torah is a Toras Emes, and if people wish to, and/or otherwise do, distort our holy faith, then those distortions should be exposed as distortions so people are not mislead off the derech Hashem. This has nothing to do with being “self-righteous”. While there may be more than one right (and wrong) derech in avodas Hashem, that doesn’t mean just any alleged derech is proper/permitted. Abrogation of halacha, by any name, is not permitted.

    (I’m sorry all the people you associate with are, in your estimation, (part-time?) liars. B”H, I don’t believe that to be typical of Klal Yisrael.)

    I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room.

  • #941601

    HaKatan, “I do agree with you, however, that these threads don’t replace a Rav. Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”, not Asei Licha Coffee Room”

    True, but Im sure great ideas for great organizations have come about when Askanim read something inspiring and then took the ideas up with a Rov and other Askanim.

    We can say what we want about the CR, but all kinds of people worldwide drop in and who knows what can come about as a result of suggestions made here.

  • #941602

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    At least the MO will admit there is a problem, the Charedim seem to bury this under a rock even though most seem to have heard of the Anti-Kiruv organization

  • #941603

    shlishi
    Member

    zsdad:

    1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)

    2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?

  • #941604

    shlishi,

    1) Extremely few Chareidim know of that apikorus/rasha organization that tries to convert Jews away from Judaism. (The one that is being discussed here unnamed.)

    This organization has hundreds of members, 95% of them are ex-Hasids (extremely few?) who are hateful and angry, many of which feeling they are being denied the help they need to achieve careerwise, because of ideological differences. (If you seek a career, you are a GOY in those communities). So they leave their communities and toss all Frumkeit.

    2) Chareidim not only admit there is a problem, but have many many extensive organizations to combat OTD. What are the MO doing about their much larger problem with it and what MO organizations combat OTD and and try to bring their brethren back into the fold?

    The need for a Mod Orth organization doesnt negate the need for a Chareidi organization to interest these ex-Chareidi kids who are going to that despicable organization and leaving all Frumkeit behind.

    Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, in addition to extra-curricular activities to keep these kids happy, interested and busy with religious influence.

  • #941605

    mommamia22
    Member

    Shlishi

    NCSY (answer to #2)

  • #941606

    Health
    Participant

    PuhLease -“This topic disgusts me..”

    This could be, but why is my post the whole topic?

    “@Health you stated to Dolphina that “I got news for you, it’s not Frum people’s job to make everybody Frum, but it is their job to speak the truth.”

    I don’t know one single person in this world, frum or otherwise who always speaks the truth. It is absolutely not a frum person’s job to speak the truth. It is a frum person’s job to serve their creator. How that person chooses to do that is between that person, and his/her creator.

    Come Yom Kippur, every individual is required to ask mechilah from those that they may have wronged, on the internet, in public, in private, or anywhere else before we can ask mechilah from the one above. There is a reason for that, and is is not ok to go around bashing others, and being all self righteous, judgemental. And yes, for those of you that want to tell me that I am being condescending (you’re entitled to your opinion, and I’m certainly not going to take that away from you, since I most definitely have my opinions of you, that may be, but what these threads do are WRONG.

    There is NO VALUE to them. NONE.

    All they do is breed hate, prejudice, distaste, dislike, disgust, and intolerance for one another.

    These threads are NOT a replacement for a rav. They are not replacements for friends. They are not replacements for a therapist! All these threads do is BREED HATRED. No Wonder Mochiach hasn’t come yet! He’s reading these threads and saying “I don’t want to be down there!””

    I’m not sure if your attack is just on me or on the whole topic.

    Anyway I’ll defend my post. I already explained what I meant by truth is Not s/o’s personal opinion here, but when s/o quotes Torah. If anybody has a problem with what it says in the Torah, I for one, am not going to be apologetic. If they have problems with anything that our Torah teaches, they should be embarrassed & demeaned. If the Torah is not so clear cut and there are Machlokeses -this is not what I’m talking about. Our Halacha is quite clear in most instances. It is these people who have to worried about Yom Kippur, not those who denigrade people who flaunt Halacha.

  • #941607

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Name one organzation in the Charedi world meant to combat OTD and I dont mean forcing people to conform, that doesnt work for everyone. Name some organizations that are the antidote to the Anti-Kiruv organization

    And it does seem everyone knows about it, Its no secret what its name it and its even been on the Zev Brenner Show.

    Organizations like NCSY do combat OTD, what is the Charedi equivilant of NCSY.

  • #941608

    Charedis might have many organizationss, but none that are offering educational/career opportunities, lectures, warmth, counseling and extra-curricular activities, with religious influence, to keep these kids happy, interested and busy.

    Time to realize such an organization is sorely needed.

  • #941609

    mommamia22
    Member

    Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???

  • #941610

    MDG
    Participant

    It seems to me that the Charaidi world is more focused on building and growing. The population is growing fast and the needs in terms of living, both physically and spiritually, are pressing. The scarce resources may be allocated where they are more strategic. To hire one Rebbe for a class may effect 25 students positively. At the same time that salary could be paid for a Kiruv person who will probably influence less people for less time.

    I’m not saying that outreach is not important, but one can say that you get more bang for the buck investing in the existing Charaidi system.

  • #941611

    shlishi
    Member

    There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is Project YES, Oorah, Chabad, Priority-1, etc. Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children.

  • #941612

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most Charedim do not Like Chabad because of the Messanism.

    Oorah raises money for Yeshiva Tuition not really for outreach to “teens in crisis”

    The only acceptable activity for many Charedi kids is Learning. Not to say that learning isnt important, but what if a Kid Hates Gemorah. Telling the kid to learn even more Gemorah doesnt always produce a love of learning and can foster a hate in learning.

    I think many Chassidic communities even ban Ball Playing DURING THE WEEK so playing sports like basketball can be an unacceptable activity

  • #941613

    shlishi
    Member

    zsdad: You don’t know what you are talking about. Besides disregarding all the other organizations, Oorah in fact does do outreach directly — and in fact that is their primary activity. Additionally, they have camps for boys and girls (separate, obviously; lemme guess, your next rant will be about how some teens just hate non-coed camps), holiday programs, seminars, and all other sorts of help for at-risk children.

  • #941614

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???

    No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.

  • #941615

    Toi
    Member

    zdad- is your ignorance feigned, or are you just that spazzed?

  • #941616

    shlishi,

    There are MANY Chareidi organizations doing all of that. Right off the top of my head, without even thinking into how many I can come up with, there is.

    Project YES: Very hard to get through to. Certainly not for those who dont want to bang on their doors for months.

    Oorah: I know lots of Oorah employees well, and they are one of the most amazing organizations, but their goal is Kiruv R’CHOKIM, NOT Kiruv OTD!!! They work with public school kids and the like. Please get your facts straight.

    Chabad: They are NOT doing Kiruv OTD, you have to approach them, which OTD chevra will never do.

    Priority-1: I think theyre meant for very serious problems like anti-social issues, suicide risk, etc.

    Additionally, there are so many Yeshivas just in the Metro area alone that specialize in helping at-risk children. Most of the above mentioned organizations are for kids in elementary or high school. Im not addressing the problem with kids younger than 18, Im talking young adults who go off on their own and leave Frumkeit, usually when theyre no longer under their parents’ roofs.

    Perhaps the Chassidic communities would rather turn a blind eye and give up shaichus to these individuals who dont want to live exactly like them, and do nothing while they stray from Kashrus and Shabbos, for example, rather than help these young adults somewhat modify their lives and have them stay Frum but perhaps less Chassidish or not Chassidish. Its puzzling.

  • #941617

    PuhLease
    Member

    @ Health,

    Topic, not You Chas V’shalom. I personally, attempt not to harass any one specific person in general unless attacked first. Thus, if you felt attacked, I whole heartedly apologize.

  • #941618

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Some posters said MO shouldn’t support UJA, because although it gives them funding, it also supports Footsteps.

    Perhaps MO learned from Agudas Yisroel and the Moetzes? After all, at the convention a few years ago, Mayor Bloomberg was honored for the funding he got the yeshivos – while he was campaigning to legalize same-sex marriage in NY!

  • #941619

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe, if you examine the likely intended outcome of each action, you would quickly see that the two are not comparable.

    UJA can support whatever organizations it feels like, and its priorities are conveyed by those choices.

    Whereas Agudah has to work with whichever politicians are in power. This includes honoring someone at a dinner. Also, see the mefarshim on Yaakov calling Esav “Adon”. in last week’s parsha.

    Of course, two wrongs anyways don’t make a right. But, in this case, it seems like there’s only one wrong and it’s not Agudah’s.

  • #941620

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    It’s true that Project YES is hard to get through to, that is something I find a drop troubling since it is headed by Rabbi Yackov Horowitz who is considered by some to be extremley active in OTD.

    However there are numerous other orginazations that are dedicated towards OTD though they are much lower profile even though they do amazing things.

    In Flatbush There is Rabbi Wallerstiens yeshivos which includes an Middle Elementary school specifiacally designed for kids who are “falling” through the cracks.

    I don’t know much about the school know as I do not live in Brooklyn anymore, however when I was in Yeshiva I had a friend who’s father was a Rebbi their and part of his job wass that each time he gave a test he had to make up an individual test tailored towards each kid.

    I believe the elementary was called Bircas Shmuel and the Beis Medrash was Ohr Yitzchok.

    At the time I was in Yeshiva in Brooklyn it was a known thing that all the Wallerstiens work was done under the direction of Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l.

    There is also Our Place.

    There is also the one man “storm” of action named Rabbi Mitch Mitnick who has dedicated his life towards OTD kids.

    Then in Lakewood there is Rabbi Yitzchok Abadi and his Yeshiva dedicated towards helping these children.

    There is also Progect Extreme with Rabbi AY Weinberg.

    However I will state that from what I have seen personally the most help comes from individual Rabbeim who put their heart and souls into doing everything they can for their talmidim.

    I personally stand in awe of what I have seen many Rabbeim do to help their students.

    However I am aware of the fact that many Rabbeim are increasingly curtailing their activities in these fields since the danger they are subjecting themselves to is sadly growing day by day.

    All they need is one child with emotianal problems or one distraught parent to accuse them of something and theyre entire lives and families lives can be destroyed.

    B”H Klal Yisroel still has Men and Women who are willing to risk it , however the risk grows and sadly many are deciding the risks are to great.

    And yes, I most definetly am deeply afraid of what will happen in the future.

  • #941621

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaKatan, I don’t think that’s a good answer. Years ago, R’ Gifter gave his famous speech attacking YU. He said they did what they did to get government funding. He said the money comes from Hashem, not the government, and you can’t go even one bit against what is right for government funding. I think if he were alive at the time Bloomberg was honored, he would have been dead-set against it.

  • #941622

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    What a shame this thread drove Feif Un (whom I know personally!) away.

    If Rabbi Pruzansky is correct, this must be an extremely new phenomenon. The population growth in Teaneck is staggering. The schools are bursting at the seam and new schools have opened.

    I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD.

    As to whether or not MO is valid – I believe so. There are also plenty of factions within Charedi society that my Rabbonim believe are against halacha. Eh, enjoy feeling “superior.”

  • #941623

    cantgetit
    Member

    Extremely new phenominon? Not by a long shot. This is a very old issue that never changed. Much of the MO population from the pre-1950s are the bedrock of the Conservative movement as well as much of the completely unaffiliated and assimilated American Jews.

  • #941624

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Then why is MO thriving? Why is the MO population growing so much that new schools are constantly being added in major MO communities and other schools are increasing their capacity?

  • #941625

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe, again, I believe your latest comparison is also incorrect.

    Let me spell it out: “Michanfin laRasha mipnei Darkei Shalom”. So this is “fair play”, at least in whatever cases it halachicly applies. But allowing gay clubs is not.

    SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”? So your comparison to BY is not valid, as you can’t, for example, go mixed swimming as a BY.

    As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO as a horaas sha’ah because he was afraid that traditional Orthodoxy would become a relic. B”H, his fears were quite unfounded, and, besides, as he himself wrote then, the further one can distance one’s self from culture the better. I guess MO doesn’t hold of that part.

    As a matter of practical application, for instance, any male who attends a Broadway show, even with eye coverings and earplugs, as ridiculous as that is, is still a halachic rasha (though I do respect his efforts).

    I don’t see how any true Orthodoxy could be worse that halachic rishous, though I don’t claim that all segments of Orthodoxy do everything correctly. But I don’t know of any segment of Orthodoxy other than MO that proudly institutionalizes certain aveiros as muttar. For instance, I’ve never seen reviews of bars/pubs and the use of semi-vulgar “street” terminology in Hamodia or Yated, but I have seen both in a YU publication since, I suppose, that’s part of being “modern” and therefore muttar.

    As for MO thriving, it’s nice that the Teaneck is thriving. But MO is still what it is.

  • #941626

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, since this is the thread that drove off Feif, I went back through it to see what I had said, and if I was “a bit over the top”.

    I’m proud to say that I am proud of all my posts on this thread, and I don’t think any of them are what drove Feif off.

    I am especially proud of this one, which was kind of a joke:

    Do people need to be denigraded or their beliefs???

    No, but people need to denigrate, and the best targets are people. People should learn to live with it.

  • #941627

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As far as I know YU doesnt have a best selling author like Williamsburg does

  • #941628

    MDG
    Participant

    “SJS, why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?”

    MO leaders (rabbis) does not advocate aveiros. Some MO people may do aveiros, but that does not make it part of the MO beliefs.

    “As has been mentioned before, Rabbi Soloveichik invented MO”

    Do you have any proof for that, or is that a convenient lie that you have repeated enough to believe?

  • #941629

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As far as I know YU doesnt have a best selling author like Williamsburg does

    dog bites man. man bites dog.

  • #941630

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZDad,

    They have articles in a student magazine that rivals anything Feldman alleged in her fanciful work of fiction. A magazine that received funding from YU. An article that widely discussed in the secular media.

    Or have you forgotten.

    None of this is something to be proud of.

  • #941631

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    In each society there are groups who follow halacha and groups who don’t. Just look at how many tznius threads there are – apparently, the Yeshiva world has a tznius problem. So why go OTD if women can just hike up their skirts? (insert eye roll here)

    MO society doesn’t ostracize people for their life choices, even if those are not within halacha. So yes, my neighbor may do something wrong. IME though, the more to the “right” you go, the more hidden the sins. It seems to be totally acceptable in RW society to pay cash and avoid paying taxes. Is that halachically acceptable? No.

    I would really like to see Rav Soloveitchik quoted as saying MO is horaas shaah.

    I personally believe in the MO hashkafa. I don’t believe in Yeshivish or Chassidish hashkafa. I think there are major flaws in the system. Its not because its “easier” – while I was raised MO, I went to a RW elementary school. My sister chose to be RW, I chose to be MO.

    Teaneck is thriving (and the RWMO element is bursting). If so many teens/early 20s were going OTD, then how would there be a huge baby boom? His statistics don’t add up.

    Anyway, now I’m rambling.

  • #941633

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You can be proud of her appearance on the view and other talk shows, something no YU beacon author was able to do.

  • #941634

    Wolfman
    Member

    I’m not MO. I reject all lables other than “Jewish.” I just read this thread for the first time. I seriously doubt the 50% statistic. It doesn’t shtim with facts on the ground.

  • #941635

    MDG
    Participant

    SJSinNYC said:

    “I’m not out of high school that long, and I can’t think of one person OTD from my high school class. I know quite a few from the local Bais Yaakov who are OTD. “

    See this for the reason: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-making-of-talmidei-chachomim

    Simply put, the German (similar to today’s MO) outlook is to reconcile Judaism with outside knowledge, whereas the Litvish outlook was extreme – Torah and nothing else – all or nothing. So if one can’t have it all, one might just say forget it all.

  • #941636

    MDG
    Participant

    Wolfman said ” I seriously doubt the 50% statistic. It doesn’t shtim with facts on the ground. “

    It has been mentioned before that the statistic may include many who call themselves MO but actually do nothing orthodox. Maybe they attend a MO shul 3 times a year because their parents went to that shul. Anyways, I agree that labels are bad, and they can be misleading too.

  • #941637

    HaKatan
    Participant

    SJS: you didn’t read my rhetorical question.

    Of course, the yetzer hara is an equal opportunity yetzer.

    You missed the whole last part of “why go OTD if your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros within the framework of “MO”?” Note the part about “your theology claims it’s permissible to be over aveiros”. This dubious distinction belongs to MO, not traditional orthodoxy. Traditional orthodoxy rightly holds that it is forbidden to do all aveiros, even ones that conflict with secular culture and we don’t really like.

    So since you mentioned skirts, there might be some Traditional Orthodox women who have their struggles with Tznius. But they don’t claim they are better than those who do adhere faithfully to Tznius. Whereas MO holds you can just do what you want (obviously, even MO has their limits, but those limits are already well outside normative orthodox Judaism).

    Here is your quote that Rabbi JBS said MO is a horaas shaah (at best). Mishpacha Magazine seems to have had an article on Rabbi JBS.

    On another site, regarding that Mishpacha article, the following is part of a comment posted there.

    [but]

    Note also the part about “This secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus AS LONG AS ONE CAN LIVE WITHOUT IT SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR THE SPIRIT”.

    This doesn’t sound like something anybody should *want* to be a part of. If you (foolishly) claim there is no other way, then you are simply denying reality.

    While there may be flaws in lots of “systems”, that doesn’t excuse abrogating halacha, CH”V, which clearly, and proudly, happens in MO, even if they feel they that modernity permits them to do so. What you posit amounts to “I can proudly violate the Torah because their system is flawed”. I would not agree that this is a Torah approach.

  • #941638

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    You are very unfairly lumping segments of MO together.

    I know many people who identify with MO but attempt to do everything al pi halacha, even if I disagree with their approach to halacha.

  • #941639

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid, although I do not judge anyone, the movement they associate with is still what it is.

    The major points are, as I said, that the movement is mattir issurim even though Rabbi JBS specifically stated that it’s better to avoid “secular culture…negative and perverse aspects”, certainly not to be mattir issurim; and that MO is mitaher and miskadeish the idolatry of Zionism, even though Zionism was and is kineged the daas of practically every gadol, Zionist propaganda not withstanding, and Zionism is now, clear for all to see, a disaster of terrible magnitude. Like the baal or molech, how many human sacrifices, physical and/or spirtual, CH”V, make it worth it to be able to serve this idol of Zionism?

  • #941640

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Hakatan,

    I would need to see an actual source. I don’t consider a random quoted source in a some mishpacha article a source (especially because they aren’t exactly a quality peer reviewed paper).

    However, he is not the only MO theologian/Rabbi, so I’m not sure the point stands.

    As to why be MO if you can break halacha without being thrown out of your community? Well, that’s a pretty ridiculous statement. I know plenty of groups of Yeshivish women who gather weekly purely to speak lashon hara. My yeshivish cousin landed in jail for financial fraud and he was surrounded by many yeshivish people in prison. And Yeshivish society has plenty of trouble with women flaunting their version of halachic tznius.

    MO has different standards within halacha. So no, I don’t think wearing a skirt 4″ past my knee or covering my collar bone or wearing sleeves past my elbow is necessary to be following halacha. More is not always better. Charedi rabbonim clearly agree or they wouldn’t have banned burqas in Israel. The question is where to draw the halachic line and we each turn to our own Rabbonim.

    However, no one is going to throw you out of the community if you do something, especially if its a bein adam lamakom. Baruch hashem! No one is perfect. Everyone is a work in progress and there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    My coworkers still marvel at the fact that I’ve never eaten a ruben. Or worked on Saturday during an emergency. Or countless of other things that fall within halacha.

    But if you don’t need modernity, that’s fine. Good luck finding a doctor who practices talmudic anatomy!

  • #941641

    cantgetit
    Member

    Being Adam LMakom is not less severe than bein adam lchaveiro.

  • #941642

    HaKatan
    Participant

    SJS, once more, while “everyone is a work in progress”, only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding.

    As to your request for a quote, they quoted “Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveichik, Five Addresses”. I hope that satisfies your requirements.

    As to your quip at the end seemingly mockingly implying that I don’t need any form of modern progress, you seem to believe that in addition to MO allowing you to redefine halacha, that you also are the sole claimants to everything pertaining to modernity outside halacha.

    This is, of course, a mistake. Traditional Orthodox Jews are as savvy and engaged, within the bounds of halacha, as anyone could be with modern technology, including MO. Hashem created many nissim and niflaos, and it is obviously good to bring nachas to Hashem from those since they enable one to be a better eved Hashem.

    But where “modernity” and, more accurately, “culture”, conflicts with halacha, like wearing short skirts, not covering hair (properly, if at all) going mixed swimming, Zionism, et al., where one would, therefore, be lacking in his serving G-d, then halacha takes precedence over modernity/culture for traditional Orthodoxy, unlike in MO where modernity trumps halacha, regardless.

    I again want to emphasize that I’m not judging anyone but am speaking in generalities about a movement.

  • #941643

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    HaKatan, I have never reviewed those speeches so I will do so at a later date.

    As to “only MO redefines Halacha to fit modernity, and those MO standards are not “within halacha” as you claim, MO delusions to the contrary not withstanding” – this is where we part ways.

    MO rabbonim often give a different psak than Charedi rabbonim, but are still within the halachic framework. Its that attitude that makes many people (and not only MO or JPF people), find the Charedi attitude towards others abhorrant. And incorrect.

    But what do I know, I don’t view a black hat as a halachic requirement :-/

    I think Feif Un had the right idea.

  • #941644

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    SJS,

    I know of nobody who identifies themselves as charedi and considers a black hat to be a halachic requirement.

    If you wish to argue on point, you would have to either defend or dissociate yourself from real halachic problems in MO, such as mixed swimming.

  • #941645

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DY, I know a number of Yeshivish people who were told by thier rabbonim that it is better not to attend a minyan w/o a black hat and daven at home, even if it means missing kaddish. This makes those of us who view a black hat as a fashion statement really scratch our head.

    Anyway, I thought we were talking about the halacha of different sects, not the practices. Do you know any MO Rabbonim who allow mixed swimming for non medicinal purposes? I don’t! Unless you think Yeshivish rabbonim agree that the “hot chani” look falls within the bounds of Yeshivish halacha?

  • #941646

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Anyway, this will be my last post here. This thread reminds me exactly why I left a few years ago.

  • #941647

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    A hat, or davka a black hat? Wearing a hat, according to basic halacha, is required, although Tzitz Eliezer is meikil since today it is normal to appear that way before a ruler. But black? I never heard of any reason for that, other than cultural.

  • #941648

    HaKatan
    Participant

    SJS:

    Your “always pleasant” subtitle was not very evident in your previous posts.

    Since you can’t defend the points, you chose to bow out. That’s okay; you don’t have to defend anything, much less the indefensible like MO.

    If this story, about not davening without a black hat, is true, it must have been any respectable hat, not just black.

    The reason you are scratching your head is that a black hat during davening is, in fact, NOT a fashion statement. (The black part might be fairly uniform, but the whole thing is certainly not a fashion statement.) Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat, with the exceptions of much of those influenced by the decline of the society around us, one must do the same when addressing the King of Kings.

    Giluy Arayos is Yeihareig ViAl Yaavor. What would medicinal purposes have to do with anything? And why would it have to be mixed, even if it were medicinal?

    Face facts: MO elevated modernity on a pedestal and, in the process, tramples on parts of the Torah.

    As well, there are more shades of gray than a simple stark comparison between Chareidi and MO.

    Finally, Traditional Orthodoxy, which Rabbi JBS mistakenly thought would become a museum piece and was his impetus for creating MO, did not, B”H, become a museum piece.

    BE”H, the truth will be revealed BB”A.

  • #941649

    Matan1
    Member

    HaKatan-“Just as every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat”

    The president doesn’t wear a hat. Almost nobody today wears a hat. While it used to be standerd for a male to wear a hat, today it’s not. Times change. Dress changes. It has nothing to do with modernity. Since the birth of society, dress has been changing.

    Its fine to wear a hat, but to say that “every dignified human male wears both a suit and a hat” is just wrong.

  • #941650

    far east
    Member

    its ironic. All the american yeshivish jews bashing the MO. They dont realize that the chareidim in israel look at them like their the modern jews. Its all about your perspective

  • #941651

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    FE,

    Culturally, not halachically.

  • #941652

    far east
    Member

    halachically as well. The Isralei Charedi community is a lot more machmir

  • #941653

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    As a whole, you’re right. But it’s not as much of an absolute as culturally. There is a segment of American charedim who follow the Israeli charedi model for psak.

  • #941654

    HaKatan
    Participant

    It’s not ironic at all. Israelis may do things differently as, for one, they have a different culture to deal with so they may have to play by different rules. So this has no bearing on American Jewry.

    MO, starting from Rabbi JBS, on the other hand, touts modernity as a reason to do things differently whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner. Though, again, the Yetzer Hara is happy to target everyone.

  • #941655

    far east
    Member

    katan i think you have things a little mixed up. Rabbi Solevechick simply valued the modern world as well as the torah. He wasn’t saying the modern world was more important than the torah. Simialar to the Rambam who also valued the modern world and studied plato and aristotle

  • #941656

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Hakatan: Just to clarify, Modern Orthodoxy also had Daas Torah, just not yours.

    The reason why MO has a higher OTD rate then other groups is because all the yeshivish, litvish and chassidish boys and girls who are frustrated with the insular way of life they are forced to lead got fed up and found a more enlightening derech to Hashem. Unfortunately, after years of being forced to observe the mitzvous instead of teaching them how to love it, all the mitzvous seem abhorrent and they go off the derech completely. You should think of MO has the Jewish Safety Net which is the last step before people go completely off.

  • #941657

    HaKatan/Joseph?:

    whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner.

    Just make sure to exclude those who do not have fidelity to Halacha (such as the Sect that has been in the news recently). They are even more to the left than MO, as they completely disregard Halachos. (I’ll leave it at that)

    Or to Paraphrase yourself:

    “The Cult, starting from Rabbi “saved by Kastner the Zionist”, on the other hand, touts backwardness as a reason to do things differently whereas traditional orthodox tout absolute fidelity to halacha and daas Torah as their banner. Though, again, the Yetzer Hara is happy to target everyone.”

    I’m still just so mad about the whole thing, to maintain Omerta and prefer that the abuser continues abusing (to the point where bribes are offered & threats are made), rather than making a Cheshbon Hanefesh and fixing what is wrong.

  • #941658

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Mods, why is it that the threads about Weberman were all closed, yet this thread remains open, allowing Hakatan/Joseph to spew his hate filled views?

  • #941659

    truthsharer
    Member

    Because YWN gets paid per ad impression. This site would show naked pictures of women if the people here would want that.

    MODERATORS NOTE: Actually, YWN does not get paid per impression.

  • #941660

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I think I’m going to write a hate post also. Not necessarily what I believe, but enough facts to make it legit. I’m gonna start working on it tonight. Let’s see if the mods post it.

  • #941661

    oomis
    Member

    Being (Bein?)Adam LMakom is not less severe than bein adam lchaveiro.”

    Sorry but it is. Yom Kippur is mechapeir for one who does teshuvah for aveiros between Man and Hashem, but even Y”K is not mechapeir on aveiros between adam l’chaveiro without the oveir getting mechilah from the person against whom he sinned. Btw, some people forget that mitzvos between man and man are ALSO bein adam l’Makom, because Hashem commands ALL the mitzvos, so if one commits an aveira like cheating someone in business, he has sinned both against his victim AND Hashem, and that’s what makes it worse. Just saying…

  • #941662

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Oomis, I think the reason a Y”K is not mechaper on BA”LCH without mechilah is because the person hasn’t fixed the aveirah; it’s like “toivel v’sheretz b’yado”. In fact, at times, the offended is obligated to give mechilah, and the offender, having done his due diligence in [sincerely] attempting to appease, can get a kaparah from HKB”H even without mechilah from chavero. I don’t think it has anything to do with which is more chamur per se.

    Surely, though, a lack of BA”LCH, even in someone who seems to display exemplary BA”LM, indicates that his BA”LM is false. I think the reverse is true to some extent as well; the ultimate bein adam lachavero is performed as part of one’s avodas Hashem, which is only sincere if it includes bein adam laMakom (assuming that it’s not deficient merely because of a lack of knowledge).

    It’s definitely more pleasant to deal with someone who excels only in BA”LCH than with someone who excels only in BA”LM, but both are severely deficient.

  • #941663

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    Why do you call out a hate filled post directed against MO, but not one directed against Satmar?

  • #941664

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Actualy the problem with Kastner was not really that he was a Zionist but rather that he was an accomplice to mass-murder as was basically proven in a court off law and transcribed in full by the the secular zionist BEn HEcht in his book Perfidy.

    So Satmar quite understandbly does not glorify a man that was for the most part a murderer who did one thing to “try and allow people to ignore his entire “resume” that so happened to save the Stmar Rebbe’s life.

  • #941665

    The reason why MO has a higher OTD rate then other groups is because all the yeshivish, litvish and chassidish boys and girls who are frustrated with the insular way of life they are forced to lead got fed up and found a more enlightening derech to Hashem.

    Absolutely INCORRECT. That is not the history of MO – MO was started as a way to keep pre-WW2 Americans who wanted to retain some standard of shmiras hamitzvos from falling off altogether. Rav Soloveichik was a pessimist who felt Yiddishkeit had to be diluted to meet the demands of American life. (The Satmar Rov ZYA was a pessimist in the other direction – he felt that isolation was the way to preserve Judaism “on tryfe soil.”)

    That being said, a 50% dropout rate sounds very high – in fact I’d guess it is 2.5 times the correct figure. Does that include those who leave MO to grow in Yiddishkeit? 🙂 Even so, the figure makes no sense.

  • #941666

    HaKatan
    Participant

    far east, I did not imply, CH”V, that Rabbi JBS held more of secular knowledge than of the Torah. That is, however, an MO phenomenon, even though he explicitly stated that it’s better to avoid culture as much as possible. For some reason, the practicality of this part of his address seems lost to MO.

    GAW, I am not defending that “cult”, as you call it, and I don’t necessarily agree with anything/some things/everything that they do. And I have stated numerous times that the Yetzer HaRa targets everyone.

    But that was not my point. My point was and is that as opposed to traditional orthodoxy, MO is unique in that it is mattir issurim and its very birth was based on a now-known-to-be faulty premise, that traditional Orthodoxy could not survive in America. Not only can it and does it, but even “Ultra-Orthodoxy” thrives. Back to MO, Zionism alone is a major problem. This has all been discussed repeatedly.

    anon1m0us, MO does not believe in Daas Torah like traditional orthodox do and, from what I understand, MO frowns on the whole concept; they obviously do believe in psak halacha from a Rav, though. If I am wrong here and MO does teach “daas Torah”, I would be interested in being corrected on this. This is irrelevant to the point of the matter.

    As I stated above, I was discussing a movement, not a person or persons. I did not mean to “hate” anyone, CH”V, only to point out the spiritual dangers of MO.

    For the record, I have never posted under any other name and I do not do so now; nor do I expect to do so in the future. Therefore, the “Joseph” references are not appreciated as they are false.

  • #941667

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaKatan, you’ve claimed many times that MO is matir issurim. You’ve been asked what issurim they are matir, but have never answered with anything other than Zionism. Please realize that many big Rabbonim disagree with that, as they hold Zionism to be perfectly fine. Can you provide an issur that MO allows?

    As for Daas Torah, MO definitely believes in asking a Rav halachic shailos, and not just deciding things for ourselves. However, we don’t believe that Rabbonim are necessarily experts in all areas. If I’m sick, I call a doctor, not my Rav. If I’m looking to buy a house, I’ll speak to a real estate agent and a mortgage broker, not my Rav. I speak to my Rav about matters that affect me spiritually. I sometimes ask my Rav about others issues simply because he is experienced in other matters and I value his opinion, but I take that as advice, not as an absolute psak that must be followed.

  • #941668

    You should think of MO has the Jewish Safety Net which is the last step before people go completely off.

    It’s not. What really happens is that those who don’t want to go completely off live at the fringes of their communities and keep just enough of their community’s minhagim to maintain a level of social acceptance. They become Chassidish-lite or Yeshivish-lite, and in some cases they do so for personal reasons and keep their kids in charedi chinuch in the hope their kids will not fall as they did.

    Those who want out leave, plain and simple. They’re more apt to become self-hating Jews than even deformed or preservative, let alone MO.

  • #941669

    I’m still just so mad about the whole thing, to maintain Omerta and prefer that the abuser continues abusing (to the point where bribes are offered & threats are made), rather than making a Cheshbon Hanefesh and fixing what is wrong.

    Is this YU? Leave the threats out, and it sure sounds like some recent revelations about the goings-on at YU, where offenders were shipped off, free to assume chinuch positions elsewhere.

  • #941670

    I agree with this. I would also expect a Chatholic Church type investigation into YU. I would not be shocked if R’ Norman Lamm will have to give up his pension and/or settle in a lawsuit.

    The difference between that & the other case is that YU will probably cooperate, while the other sect has acted like the Mafia by threatening, attempting to bribe & denounced the victim, so that no one else dares speak up.

  • #941671

    Health
    Participant

    DaMoshe -“HaKatan, you’ve claimed many times that MO is matir issurim. You’ve been asked what issurim they are matir, but have never answered with anything other than Zionism. Please realize that many big Rabbonim disagree with that, as they hold Zionism to be perfectly fine. Can you provide an issur that MO allows?”

    Many eat gelatin that R’ Ralbag Mattered. R’ Moshe zt’l held it was Ossur. In the UWS they carry on Shabbos; R’ Moshe zt’l held Broadway was a Reshus Harabim. Therefore you can’t make an Eruv in the UWS. I could go on, but this should suffice. Noone in the MO community is on the caliber to argue with R’ Moshe zt’l!

  • #941672

    The difference between that & the other case is that YU will probably cooperate,

    It took a lot to get NCSY to cooperate during the Lanner case.

    Frankly, Rav Shtarker’s Beis Din is the only one qualified to handle these cases.

  • #941673

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I never heard of R’ Ralbag saying regular gelatin is kosher. I do know that he allows a synthetic gelatin to be used. Even if he does allow it, I never heard of any other Rav allowing it. In fact, every MO Rav I’ve ever spoken to told me not to use the Triangle K hechsher.

    As for the UWS eruv, I honestly don’t know much about it. I assume there is a Rav they rely on. But to your point saying that nobody can argue on R’ Moshe zt”l, would you say the same about chassidim who use the eruv in Brooklyn? After all, R’ Moshe made it very clear that an eruv couldn’t be made in Brooklyn either. Or do you think chassidim can argue on R’ Moshe, but MO can’t?

    My Rav told me he follows R’ Moshe with the eruvin. Most MO Rabbonim I know do the same. I did speak to a Rav who was a talmud of R’ Tuvia Goldstein zt”l, who told me R’ Tuvia held the Brooklyn eruv was allowed, and could be relied on. Would you say R’ Tuvia was able to argue on R’ Moshe?

  • #941674

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    “Absolutely INCORRECT. That is not the history of MO – MO was started as a way to keep pre-WW2 Americans who wanted to retain some standard of shmiras hamitzvos from falling off altogether. Rav Soloveichik was a pessimist who felt Yiddishkeit had to be diluted to meet the demands of American life.”

    That is abolutely INCORRECT. MO started because FRIM jews did not know how to survive outside the shtatel. They came to America and was lost. Rav Soloveichik taught them how to be a frum jew and do the avodas hashem no matter what country one lives in. I actually laughed out loud that there is a notion of “Yeshivish Lite”. Most of them are commonly known as BUMS!

    Health- ANYONE can argue on R’ Moshe zt’l! Just because he was a gadol does not mean everyone follows his psak. A great example is carrying in Boro Park, a place R’ Moshe assured, but yet you have THOUSANDS of frum Jews (maybe chassidim are the new Mo) carrying every shabbos. You have hundreds of Sefardim carrying on Ocean Parkway!!

  • #941675

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I did some more digging into the gelatin thing with R’ Ralbag.

    He does not allow regular gelatin. He allows Kolatin, which is gelatin made from properly shechted cows. It also has the OU hechsher on it.

    R’ Ralbag was contacted regarding Trident gum, some of which had his hechsher. He stressed that regular gelatin is not kosher, but said a special run was produced with Kolatin in it.

  • #941676

    (maybe chassidim are the new Mo)

    I’ve been saying that for a while.

  • #941677

    TheBearIsBack: Or Richard Joel, who seems to have been the driving force in that case as well (from what I read).

  • #941678

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    I don’t know their shittos, but there may be a difference in opinion between different generations of Ralba”gs.

  • #941679

    anon1m0us, your grammar and your information are on the exact same level. Rav Soloveichik HIMSELF is my source. He did not see a future for “Orthodoxy” unless it was watered down. The gedolim of the time made a fool of him time and time again, especially with his views on the medine and on cooperation with koifrim gemurim.

    He was proven wrong. MO was a holding tank that worked for a generation or two until the Torah-true world rebuilt itself in the US. YCT is the new YU, and YCT is just a fringe group which will die out when Weiss is gone.

    Bums (oisvorfen) are one thing and the kind of people I am talking about are another. Bums are dropouts who do nothing; the people I am talking about are often very successful but reluctantly compromised on some standards.

  • #941680

    It was the present Rav Ralba”g’s father, who set up his hechsher as a business venture that was aimed at those who just wanted to keep the very baseline standard of kashrus, who accepted gelatin at one time.

    I knew Rav Y.C Ralba”g AH and I don’t think he would have eaten some of the things he supervised himself. He was not even competing with the OU but looking to find ways that traditional people who kept kashrus, of whom there were many at the time, could have more choices.

  • #941682

    Health
    Participant

    anon1m0us -“Health- ANYONE can argue on R’ Moshe zt’l! Just because he was a gadol does not mean everyone follows his psak.”

    Naarish, unless you’re being more Machmir, (like Cholov Yisroel), but to be Meikel then you have to be on his caliber to say for example Broadway is Not a Reshus Harabim.

    “A great example is carrying in Boro Park, a place R’ Moshe assured, but yet you have THOUSANDS of frum Jews (maybe chassidim are the new Mo) carrying every shabbos.”

    I just answered this above.

    “You have hundreds of Sefardim carrying on Ocean Parkway!!”

    Now this could be a problem because it could be R’ Moshe zt’l said Ocean Parkway is a Reshus Harabim.

  • #941683

    As for MO, until about a generation ago it was a diving board from which the sons and daughters of its stalwart members, especially those who wanted to enter the pulpit rabbinate, jumped down to the conman movement and even lower. Its members were similar to those who call themselves traditional in EY – baseline kashrus, shul in the morning, shopping in the afternoon.

    Then, when the going became a bit easier for shomrei Shabbos in the workplace after the civil rights movement and, more importantly, when the Torah-true world was more firmly established in the 60s and 70s, MO had already dropped its “shvachers.” The remaining MO, who were more Torah-committed but tended to be of second-or-third generation American stock rather than immigrants and first-generation Americans like those who rebuilt yeshivos and Chassidus, began to move to the right. They started to look to the rabbonim and even the Rebbeim from Europe for leadership, as they realized their rabbonim lacked in scholarship and did not represent Torah values.

    Now, it is only a matter of time before the right wing of MO (most of those who are committed to MO), most of the yeshiva world, and Chassidim who want to enter the modern world mostly to be able to raise families with dignity, converge. Gone will be welfare dependency on the one hand, but more important, “Torah uMada” will be buried with dignity, in favor of intensive Torah learning combined with secular studies for parnosso only. Even 25 years ago, I knew of no serious YU student who wasted his life studying philosophy or anthropology – most leveraged their year in EY to finish YU in three years or transfer to Columbia engineering school before going on for a law degree or MBA.

    Left out will be the left wing MO, who will jump down to YCT (a malignancy that cannot last but a generation) and then to “renewal” or who knows what, and those who choose or are socially pressured to choose an isolationist way of life. The former will sadly join the secular Jewish malaise, and the latter will find it difficult to cope and eventually become a small minority.

    Regardless of the above, the dropout rate among people who truly follow MO, as opposed to those who just go to MO shuls, cannot be 50%. Calling the crowd that was never observant “MO” is like calling the Israelis who come every Shabbos to eat at a Chabad House in Thailand or India “Lubavitchers.” It indeed WAS about 50% in the 50s and early 60s.

  • #941684

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    TheBear: You’re completely wrong with your history of MO.

    MO people didn’t look to Rabbonim from Europe for leadership. We simply respect them for who they are, because (shocker!) we don’t automatically look down on those who don’t share the same hashkafos as us.

    Right-wing MO will not join with the yeshiva world. We are doing just fine, thank you!

  • #941685

    anon1m0us
    Participant

  • #941686

    Naysberg
    Member

    anon1m0us: And mitzvas d’rabbanan are chopped liver? If mo billed itself as a kiruv stage for those “at risk” of going off the derech, you’d be right. But that’s not the case. They bill themselves as an equal or even better form of full Judaism.

  • #941687

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Naysberg

    Please list ONE mitzvah D’ Rabbanan they violate. Please do not list chumras.

  • #941688

    There is a big difference between going OTD and what Rav Soloveichik himself said his reasons for creating MO were. The epidemic of formerly frum Yidden working on Shabbos stopped gradually because of the post WW2 influx of “yeshivish and Chassidish people.” Those who arrived before WW2, except for a small group that was based around Torah voDaas (then in Williamsburgh), were lost. No one identified as “chassidish” before WW2 except the Malochim.

    anon1m0us, you are just regurgitating the worst stereotypes of the Torah-true world. I am stating facts, based on what the major figure of MO himself stated. He felt he had to bend Yiddishkeit to the times. The European refugees who kept their emunah in Hitler’s or Stalin’s gehennom weren’t about to bend in America, and what’s more, they worked hard and built up a financial infrastructure of their own. Even some who compromised in the early days upon arrival in America were able to pull themselves back up because the social and financial infrastructure were there for them. Sadly, welfare became too readily available, and it enticed some characters to “learn all day” who should have been working, but that is another story altogether. Reb Yoilish ZYA told his followers to go out and work, and work they did, so it was no longer necessary to even change your dress to get ahead.

    DaMoshe, you do not realize that serious MO and the yeshiva world are converging on each other. I remember what MO was in 1984, when it did serve as a step up for me (albeit a forced one – I preceded Chabad on my college campus, Aish was much smaller than it was today, and the MO community was all I had – I outgrew it in about a year). I was pleasantly shocked to see how much higher standards were in 2005-7 when I was last in the US. The Five Towns were pure MO, kippa off for work style, in 1984. Now, yeshiva leit and even Chassidim live in Cedarhurst and Woodmere, and they’ve strengthened the old MO community.

    MO can serve as a kiruv stage for those coming from secular backgrounds, but not as a haven for dropouts. Dropouts of the type the great tolerant MO here call “bums” want to remain a part of their old social world, even as the objects of derision. (That goes for the MO dropouts I knew in college too – they wanted to be with their old friends from high school and their year in EY, but they also wanted to date non-Jews, and the latter won out.) Those who leave for (pseudo-)intellectual reasons don’t want any part of Judaism, and if they want spirituality, they find it in places we don’t want to mention here.

    MO was a horaas shaah that certainly did save some people, mostly descendants of Americans who came before WW2. However, having quite nobly served its purpose, it is quietly fading away as its constituents realize that in a free society, you do not have to bend in any way, or accept kefiradige thought (aka Western philosophy) in any way to succeed.

  • #941689

    However, having quite nobly served its purpose, it is quietly fading away as its constituents realize that in a free society, you do not have to bend in any way, or accept kefiradige thought (aka Western philosophy) in any way to succeed.

    Even 25 years ago, I knew of no serious YU student who wasted his life studying philosophy or anthropology – most leveraged their year in EY to finish YU in three years or transfer to Columbia engineering school before going on for a law degree or MBA.

    These two statements prove each other. Like “Bear” said, Torah U’Maddah is a relic of the draw of knowledge (which unfortunately doesn’t exist in the most part. Now people just want their degrees so they can afford Yiddishkeit.) Perhaps it still exists for Yechidim to use Maddah as a tool for Yiddishkeit, but most (IMHO) “MO” don’t hold of it.

  • #941690

    Health
    Participant

    anon1m0us -“Naysberg

    Please list ONE mitzvah D’ Rabbanan they violate. Please do not list chumras.”

    How about D’oraysas? Is carrying on Shabbos in the UWS good enough?

  • #941691

    There was never any real draw of knowledge. There was an era in American history when everyone felt they had to become more “American,” not realizing that the American “melting pot” ideal never could work out, especially for people like us who have a way of life that is far older and far richer than that of the “Americans.”

    Many Jews, even those who wanted deep down to retain Yiddishkeit, succumbed to that ideology. There was never any attempt by anyone other than Rav Soloveichik and R’ Bernard Revel to use madda as a tool for Yiddishkeit. For most, it was just a tool to keep Yiddishkeit palatable enough during an era of assimilation for the sake of conformity.

    The one YU rabbi I know who fell for the madda trap preached to deaf ears – and rightfully so. He faded away and sold out for an easy position after starting off as a vocal advocate for Jewish issues. No one of any integrity wanted to listen to what he had to say.

    I have suffered far more for wont of a good plumber or electrician than I have from not having access to a good doctor. I can figure out the results of a blood test, or even get online and figure out what I have, and get hold of medication on my own. I cannot fix even a simple leak without spending time that I don’t have and money on tools I’ll use once and then lose track of. With Obamacare looming, and engineering jobs (another formerly good field for frum Yidden) moving to India, I think some people ought to use their minds for learning at night and their hands for working during the day. What’s more, with surgery becoming more automated, I have no problem with Ramesh from Mumbai operating on me (I am now in Asia and I plan to have minor elective surgery done here by a local doctor because it’s something a mohel or even a cosmetician can handle), but if I were building or renovating a home, I’d prefer that the complex plumbing and heating systems of today be installed by a Yid with a Yiddishe kop.

  • #941692

    I have suffered far more for wont of a good plumber or electrician than I have from not having access to a good doctor. I can figure out the results of a blood test, or even get online and figure out what I have, and get hold of medication on my own. I cannot fix even a simple leak without spending time that I don’t have and money on tools I’ll use once and then lose track of. With Obamacare looming, and engineering jobs (another formerly good field for frum Yidden) moving to India, I think some people ought to use their minds for learning at night and their hands for working during the day. What’s more, with surgery becoming more automated, I have no problem with Ramesh from Mumbai operating on me (I am now in Asia and I plan to have minor elective surgery done here by a local doctor because it’s something a mohel or even a cosmetician can handle), but if I were building or renovating a home, I’d prefer that the complex plumbing and heating systems of today be installed by a Yid with a Yiddishe kop.

    Blame it on tuition 🙁

  • #941693

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Health: I looked up what R’ Moshe wrote about an eruv in Manhattan. He originally wrote that he held it wasn’t good. However, he wrote that yesh al mi lismoch, and he would not be against those who used it, because they did have a valid opinion to go by. He even wrote that this is a machlokes in halachah and Hashem is rejoicing over it!

    Later, R’ Aharon Kotler wanted to sign strongly against it, and asked R’ Moshe to join in signing a letter. Out of respect for R’ Aharon, he signed. He write a letter saying that while he initially wrote a different opinion, he signed that letter for R’ Aharon.

    So to the claim that nobody can argue on R’ Moshe, even R’ Moshe himself said that he understood the opinion that the eruv was good even though he didn’t agree, and felt there was nothing wrong with relying on those opinions.

  • #941694

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So to the claim that nobody can argue on R’ Moshe, even R’ Moshe himself said that he understood the opinion that the eruv was good even though he didn’t agree, and felt there was nothing wrong with relying on those opinions.

    …until Rav Aharon told him that there was something wrong with relying on them, and out of respect for Rav Aharon, he agreed.

    That is to say, that Rav Moshe felt that he should not argue with Rav Aharon on the matter. And we should not argue with Rav Moshe…

  • #941695

    Some people may realize that medical school tuition is a waste now.

    The only way you can get ahead in medicine is through blatant or subtle insurance fraud. The problem is that in the end, you get caught. Otisville Medical Group is not a very profitable concern, and you can even end up in a facility where your chavrusa is a real Dwek.

  • #941696

    truthsharer
    Member

    Why do people keep stating that R’ YBS invented Modern Orthodoxy? It was flourishing well before he came to the US.

    And, for the record, R’ Samson Raphael Hirsch “invented” modern Orthodoxy, and ALL of us practice it in one way or another.

  • #941697

    cantgetit
    Member

    RSRH and TIDE are the polar opposite of MO and TuM. See what Rav Schwab, rov of RSRH’s TIDE Kehilla, said about MO and TuM.

  • #941698

    truthsharer
    Member

    You’re stating that only YU and TUM represents MO. That is not correct.

  • #941699

    cantgetit
    Member

    See what Rav Schwab zt’l, rov of RSRH’s Kehilla, said about MO itself. It’s published in his Seforim.

  • #941700

    TuM and TIDE are completely different. The remaining followers of R’Hirsch (KAJ) are very charedi.

    R’ Soloveichik invented an ideology to match the watered-down “Orthodoxy” of pre-war America, and in so doing, he indeed brought it up several levels. It really does go back to Young Israel, which at the time was far different from what it is now.

  • #941701

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Well, I wrote my hate post. The mods didn’t publish it. Mods, why can people write terrible things about MO, but I write something about chassidim and it won’t get published?

  • #941702

    cantgetit
    Member

    Because one is true while the other isn’t true.

  • #941703

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    So they only post the ones that aren’t true?

  • #941704

    nfgo3
    Member

    Veltz Meshugener’s first comment is, undoubtedly, the best comment ever in the Coffee Room.

  • #941705

    And chassidishY.U.type’s first comment (third on the page) is possibly the best troll post in the CR.

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