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Should religious girls learn halachot and mussar on a frequent basis?
skald89 – yes i think so. i try too.
How else are they going to know what to do and not do?
OF Course
Bu they need to be taught how to weigh everything properly Girls(across the spectrum) have a way a taking what they glean without proper balance
Judaism is ( for lack of a better term)
a Pyramid
structure
“Should religious girls learn halachot and mussar “
Shouldn’t ALL Jews learn halachot and mussar on a regular basis?
They do learn the halochot especially Shabbos.
Yes. They should also learn parsha, Chumash, and Nach on a regular basis.
I personally enjoy learning Mishna and Gemara as well.
jewish feminist – go you! finally another girl who likes learning gemara and mishna! how about science and math?
Sorry, no! I like science in theory– I mean, I like the idea of it, and I like reading articles written for laymen on scientific subjects. But I don’t like to actually study science or math. Well, I did like geometry, but that’s about it.
Women should be taught the dinim that apply to them and nothing else. Need I reiterate Rav Kanievsky’s famous kartoffel kugel maaseh?
dovrosenbaum – they should study science and math instead and become doctors?
Or they can learn cooking, sewing, home economics, etc.
Dov, if they do it right that will keep them very busy. Most of Orech Chaim and Even HaEzer. All of Choshen Mishpat and Yoreh Deah. Not to mention Mussar and Emuna so that it is not just an intellectual exercise.
Sparkly, she mentioned on another thread that she is married so she is a woman.
Sara Schnerirer, with the backing and support of the Polish Rebbes of her time, founded Bais Yakov, whose mission was to teach girls the full spectrum of Torah. Chumas, Rashi, meforshim such as Ramban, Nach with meforshim, halacha and mussar. Her legacy continues as of now and has resulted in Torah true families by the hundreds of thousands all over the world.
JF2: “Yes. They should also learn parsha, Chumash, and Nach on a regular basis.”
They don’t have to learn Parsha, Chumash and Nach (although they can if they want to, and they are fulfilling a Mitzvah when they do, and it’s certainly a better use of one’s time than many other things people do!), but they have an absolute CHIYUV to learn Halacha and Mussar.
What’s the famous kartoffel kugel maaseh? I’m curious to hear it.
Yes, I know. That’s why I said “they should” and not “they have to”.
Although actually, why would they have a chiyuv to learn mussar?
Meno, as I remember (and I’m sure it has been told and retold in many variations, so the one that I read may not be 100% accurate) two girls came to Rav Kanievsky and asked him a shailah on a Rambam, and he responded by telling them to go to the kitchen and his wife would show them how to make potato kugel.
I was outraged the first time I read this, and then I read it somewhere else that said that their shailah was something really obvious that any yeshiva bochur could answer, and that it was clear that they were only coming to him to make some kind of statement and not because they really had a question. So that gave me some perspective. Still, I can’t imagine that his way of dealing with them was effective– if anything, it may have just encouraged them more.
I think this is a story that has been seriously taken out of context. The problem with stories is that the message is in the telling, and the telling tells you more about the person telling the story than the person whom it is about.
Even if the facts are exactly the same, the way a story is told can give it a very different meaning. And even the facts are usually completely twisted. For example, I heard it was some kind of cake and it was Rav Shach.
Actually, Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita doesn’t even speak to girls – he won’t even read a girl’s handwriting. Only on rare exceptional occasions has he spoken to girls, and that was only with his wife’s request.
Therefore, I don’t think the story has any truth to it.
In terms of the Rav Shach story, the way I heard it was that they came to him with a question about the Ramban, which is not an appropriate thing to come to a Gadol Hador about – you can ask your teacher, not Rav Shach!
He then served them some cake, asked them if they liked it, and asked them if they know how to make it.
If you tell over the story a certain way, it can sound like he was being very charif, and as JF2 pointed out, that is not usually the best way to deal with people.
However, it is possible to tell over the story in such a way that you stress the fact that he spoke in an adin fashion, and he was just trying to remind them that as important as it is to learn Ramban, it is also important to know how to make cake, and even though right now they are in school and being made to feel like their only purpose in life is to learn Ramban, they have to remember, that one day, there will be more important things for them to know.
When girls are in school, they are made to feel like the only thing that matters is knowing Ramban, so perhaps he wanted to give them some perspective.
A non-Yeshivish friend of mine once quoted that story to me to “prove” that in the Yeshivish world, girls’ learning is discouraged. Actually, I think that the story proves the opposite: My impression was that these girls were learning in a Bais Yaakov Seminary where apparently girls learning is considered super-important, and that’s why Rav Shach felt it was necessary to remind them of other priorities.
dovrosenbaum – so they should not do anything with their lives?
Avi K – there are married men as well. who do you think girls are married to? so that doesnt prove that shes a lady just because shes married.
They should cook, clean, rear the children, and do volunteer work, like being part of Sisterhood groups or Ladies Auxiliary.
Sisterhood groups or Ladies Auxiliary? now I know you aren’t for real.
syag lchochma – that is true. he cant be for real.
dovrosenbaum – and have lives which means going to work, getting an education, doing stuff for themselves like working out at the gym (taking classes at the gym if your referring to my gym), etc…..
Actually, speaking of Rav Chaim, I think the Rebbitzin a”h worked as a bookkeeper and enjoyed math and on walks (on Shabbos?), Rav Chaim would discuss things which included math.
kapusta – very nice.
What’s wrong with the Sisterhood? Or a Nshei group, in a more frum shul?
Kapusta – “Actually, speaking of Rav Chaim, I think the Rebbitzin a”h worked as a bookkeeper and enjoyed math and on walks (on Shabbos?), Rav Chaim would discuss things which included math.”
Kapusta, that is correct, and according to her biography, there was a particular Tosfos which involved math which he used to discuss with her.
Additionally, she spent several hours learning every day.
It is a Mitzvah for girls to learn if they can and even a chiyuv to learn certain (a lot of) things. According to Rav Avigdor Miller, the difference between men and women is that she has more excuses not to learn. But she should certainly learn as much as she can, and it is definitely praiseworthy.
dovrosenbaum:If she can’t learn because she has to take care of the kids or cook, that is one thing, but it is not a Mitzvah to davka come up with other things to do in order to avoid learning.
Dovrosenbaum: I don’t think sisterhoods or women’s leagues exist in the 21st century, at least not in Frum communities. I have never heard of one.
There is N’shei but they don’t usually do much except get together once in a while in order to have a social life because people need a break and a social life. There is nothing wrong with that, but you can get together to learn for the same price.
Sparkly: |dovrosenbaum – and have lives which means going to work, getting an education, doing stuff for themselves like working out at the gym (taking classes at the gym if your referring to my gym), etc…..”
Sparkly, while I basically agree with you, that wasn’t dovrosenbaum’s point . He (or she, but I find it hard to believe that he is a she) was talking about whether or not women should learn, not about whether or not she should do other things.
Sisterhoods do exist in frum communities, and some of them are quite active. It depends on the community. But they’re mostly made up of older women.
“as important as it is to learn Ramban, it is also important to know how to make cake”
Um, no it’s not.
” it is also important to know how to make cake”
Neither I nor my wife has ever made cake.
“Um, no it’s not.”
Bingo.
JF2- the fact that you can’t manage in life without making cake doesn’t mean it’s not important. There are also people who manage without learning Rambans.
The point wasn’t about Rambans or cakes per se’. It was more about being well-rounded and setting priorities as needed. When someone gets married, they can’t spend all of their time learning Rambans, since they have to spend some time taking care of their families, whether that means baking cakes or changing diapers or spending time with your kids, etc. Exactly what it involves depends on the person and her husband and her life circumstances,etc, but in most cases, it does involve something other than learning Ramban.
For that matter, if a girl spent all her time baking cakes, I would also tell her that she needs to spend some time learning (although it doesn’t have to be Ramban just like it didn’t have to be cake.)
Of course you can “manage in life” without knowing how to make cake. But that is not why it’s not “important” to know how to make cake. It’s not important because, well, it’s not. Why don’t you tell me why you think it IS important and we’ll go from there.
I don’t believe that if a girl goes to a gadol (R’ Shach or R’ Kanievsky or whoever it was) to ask a question about a Ramban, that that means that she plans to spend her entire life learning Ramban and will never take on any real responsibilities. I just don’t buy it.
On another note, this sentence:
“When someone gets married, they can’t spend all of their time learning Rambans, since they have to spend some time taking care of their families, whether that means baking cakes or changing diapers or spending time with your kids, etc.”
Also applies to men. And I guarantee you that no man who ever asked a shaila on a Ramban was told that some things are more important than learning Ramban and he should make sure that he knows how to make cake and potato kugel.
“Of course you can “manage in life” without knowing how to make cake. But that is not why it’s not “important” to know how to make cake. It’s not important because, well, it’s not. Why don’t you tell me why you think it IS important and we’ll go from there.”
Sorry, but I already answered this. Please read my post before you ask the same questions again and again.
“Also applies to men. And I guarantee you that no man who ever asked a shaila on a Ramban was told that some things are more important than learning Ramban and he should make sure that he knows how to make cake and potato kugel.”
I guarantee you that no boy ever did something so dumb as to go to Rav Shach with his question on Ramban instead of asking his teacher or tutor.
And I hate to break it to you, but women and men do have different tafkidim in life.
Furthermore, whenever a Gadol has reason to think that a man is not fulfilling his obligations in the home, he will tell him, and usually, much more sharply than the way he would tell a girl.
Furthermore, did it occur to you that maybe Rav Shach said this because he felt that the girls were overly stressed about their schoolwork?
The bottom line is that the Gedolim know a lot more than we do and we have no business criticizing them even when we know exactly what happened. In this case, as I pointed out earlier, we have no clue what happened so we certainly can’t criticize. We don’t know exactly what the girls said and how they said it. We also don’t know exactly what Rav Shach zatsal said and how he said it.
I can tell you from my experiences sending sheilahs to Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Shlita, that he clearly has Ruach Hakodesh and knew exactly what I needed to hear. Since Rav Shach zatsal was even greater than Rav Chaim, I assume that he had Ruach Hakodesh and knew exactly what the girls needed to hear.
I would also add that Rav Chaim has always treated my questions with the greatest respect. I don’t ask him questions on Ramban that anyone can answer. I ask him serious halachic sheilas after I have gone through all the sources (including Gemaras, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Berurah and contemporary Poskim) and have determined that it is a difficult sheilah that no one else would be able to answer but him. I also ask him serious hashkafa questions that no one else would be able to answer.
Please keep in mind that the girls were acting with a lot of chutzpah. We tend to have this attitude that we can just waste Gedolim’s time on any dumb question as though they are our servants and should be available for whatever we want. A Gadol’s time is precious, and it is very chutzpadik to go to him with your schoolwork instead of going to your teacher!
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