Should the wishes of racist parents that I not date their child be respected?

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  • #615627

    Long story short: I’m not a convert but I’m not white.

    I’ve been seeing this girl for some time now, but her parents hate me because I’m not white and they flipped when they found out that I wasn’t white.

    It got to the point where the father told her “G-d forbid that you have non-white children,” so it’s absolutely first and foremost an issue of race, and she’s aware of this.

    Occasionally, their objections have been peppered with a bunch of other claims like cultural differences, even though I’m a shomer mitzvos Jew who follows Ashkenazic minhagim.

    1) Are inter-racial objections to shidduchim a common thing or did I just get really unlucky?

    2) The girl and I get along incredibly well, and marriage is definitely on the table. There’s just a huge issue in the way of her parents.

    Do either of us have an obligation to respect the wishes of her parents? Regardless, how should this be dealt with?

    #1076250
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    From my perspective, you have an obligation to show them respect, but not necessarily respect their wishes. Whether a marriage to this person will work under these circumstances depends on her attitude and how she deals with her parents.

    You need to discuss it with her and decide.

    #1076251
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The parents need to grow up. They should seek some guidance to get over their racism.

    #1076253
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Get real DaMoshe the parents are very unlikely to change their views they are thinking well what will the neighbors say?! she needs to show kibbud av v em but if they feel this is the real thing and racism is the only issue then they should go for it, it will be the parents loss.

    #1076254
    Avi K
    Participant

    There is no halachic obligation for either of you to respect their wishes. In fact, Rav Moshe Soloveichik objected to Rav Joseph Soloveichik’s choice (non-frum parents) as did her parents (frum parents). I don’t know what she said but Rav Soloveichik wrote his father a respectful halachic analysis proving that he did not have to listen. RMS told his associates that his son was right. Whether either of you is willing to take possible consequences is another matter. I suggest speaking to their rav.

    #1076255
    akuperma
    Participant

    If the parents are frum, talk to their rabbi. Almost by definition, a frum family is more concerned about the frumkeit of a prospective son-in-law than any other factor. Halacha says you can disregard them (i.e. “elope” most probably), but their rabbi might persuade them to be cooperative.

    If her family isn’t frum, ignore them and elope (they will be angrier about her becoming frum than what the grandchildren look like).

    #1076256
    cherrybim
    Participant

    A – Too many details missing from this story.

    B – Speak to your Rav and if you don’t have one, get one.

    C – You need to be armed with the blessings of a Gadol before you proceed.

    #1076257
    mentsch1
    Participant

    Rabbi Akiva’s wife went against her parents wishes and we all know how that turned out. She earned eternal reward for helping to create one of the most dynamic Rabbunim in all of history.

    But

    As someone who has been married more than once I can tell you that there is tremendous friction when the in-laws don’t like you. Depending on your wife’s personality, it can ultimately cause the end of a marriage. Also , Do you really want to be part of a family that hates you?

    I would advise you to not only speak to a trusted Rav, but a really good family therapist and get more than one opinion before proceeding.

    Hatzlocho!

    #1076258
    golfer
    Participant

    Shidduchp, as a self-proclaimed Shomer Mitzvos Jew, has it occurred to you to consult a Rav? That’s how it’s usually done when we wish to clarify obligations. Although I must admit there is an interesting trend developing before my eyes where the CR is becoming the preferred address for Halachic queries…

    If you are sincere and not stamm a troll or bored teenager, I would suggest clarifying your obligations with your Poseik. If you are truly about to begin a relationship k’das Moshe v’Yisroel, you will find your Rav to be an invaluable asset and resource.

    #1076259
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    golfer – you are right about the increasing queries but, as I may have said elsewhere, nobody is indicating that they are coming here for an answer in place of asking a rav. it is just interesting to hear what other frum people have experienced and what they think.

    I know someone who was in that same situation and i would bring two points:

    1-those parents were the “hating” type in general so if not this it would have been something else.

    2-they did get married and ostracized from their parents (but not siblings) BUT years later the parents realized that they were cutting off their proverbial noses and they made peace.

    #1076260
    newbee
    Member

    You do realize if race played no role in marriage, there would be no white people, asians, blacks etc. everyone would be one bland color- sounds kind of boring to me.

    People are not racist if they dont date you because you are black, green or purple. Many ashkenazim refuse to date sefardim and visa versa. Some people like yellow cars, some people like blue cars. Are they shallow, possibly, it all depends on the situation.

    #1076261
    Mrs. D
    Participant

    I think the successes of my children’s marriages is because after all the checking up and background vetting, ultimately we recognized that we should not control the final choice, but rather support our child in seeking his/her soulmate – not someone we idealized at fantasy level, but someone who would create a harmonious and Torah-dik bayis ne’eman according to their natures as individuals. It works! From your vantage point, it looks like you feel you can do this with the girl in question. But how well do you really know this girl? Here is what you may not realize you may be in store for: a young girl who is easily defying her parents right now, because of the Romeo-Juliet effect, but a little further down the road, capitulating to the parents’ control issues. Maybe not only in terms of accepting you , but there could be a lot more control issues going on. The parents as you describe them are not entirely rational or fair, but too image-conscious. Will you be willing to handle interesting scenes coming up in the future where her side of the family has a simcha and drops hints that she should come but you should find something else to do that night? Or if you go visit, please stay in the house – don’t go walking down the street together and make a busha? At the very least, get pre-nuptial couple’s counseling, even a couple of sessions, by someone frum, and then plan to live very far from the in-laws. When bez”H there are grandchildren, things may change, if you can be patient, but without properly preparing and equipping yourself with strategies via the counseling, your poor wife may get really disturbed by being always in the middle between her husband and her parents. Of course you can bypass their approval, but prepare yourselves, to avoid these messy scenarios.

    #1076262
    Joseph
    Participant

    If rich parents don’t want their daughter to marry a boy from a poor family does that make the parents anti-poor? If they don’t want their daughter to marry a Bukharian does that make them anti-Asian? If they’re Sephardim and don’t want their daughter to marry a Brisker, a Gerrer chosid, a Neteurei Karta or an Australian, what does that make them anti?

    #1076263
    Mrs. D
    Participant

    Joseph: Obviously your statement is specious, as sometimes it does mean that! And other times it has to do with the recognition of cultural conflicts. But if you took the time to note what the bachur asked, he said, he is culturally on track with them, keeping mainstream ashkenazik customs, and he is FFb, not a convert. Very mainstream, and if we are to take him at his word, the girl’s parents are in arms because they SAID they do not want non-white grandchildren. Yes, sorry , that is simply biased and irrational.

    #1076264
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is a lot more to cultural conflicts than minhagim. Yes, though; her parents do sound racist.

    #1076265
    akuperma
    Participant

    Joseph: Does that make them anti–[whatever}

    Well yes.

    Bnei Torah worry about frumekit and midos, not politics, income, ethnicity, physical appearance. In other words, the things that matter according to halacha and Jewish tradition (which from our perspective, are the same).

    An Am ha-Aretz might worry about other things, a Ben Torah doesn’t.

    #1076266

    Not a troll. The parents are not frum, so speaking to a rabbi wouldn’t do much.

    Omitting various details on purpose because I live in a small community.

    Also, I’m a BT not FFB.

    Having said that, “G-d forbid you have non-white children” is among the milder things that the parents have said. Stuff like gene pools were brought up.

    #1076267

    > Shidduchp, as a self-proclaimed Shomer Mitzvos Jew, has it occurred to you to consult a Rav? That’s how it’s usually done when we wish to clarify obligations.

    I have done so. I’m not using this as a replacement for a Rov, but I was curious to see what the general response would be like because I wanted to know if what I was experiencing was the norm — apparently not.

    #1076268
    apushatayid
    Participant

    what you are experiencing, probably is the norm. i dont have kids in shidduchim, but being brutally honest I know my gut reaction would be the same as “her parents” andI suspect most would have the same reaction. we dont live in a perfect world.

    #1076269
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Apt, there’s a big difference between feeling that way (we’re all human) and saying it, which is a gross lack of middos.

    #1076270
    Joseph
    Participant

    Are either of these worse than the others?: Rejecting a shidduch because she’s a redhead, because she’s short or because she’s black?

    #1076271
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    you guys are soo off! speaking for yourself and your friends, fine. But to say that MOST would react that way? Or that they would feel it but not say it? Wow! Just Wow!

    #1076272
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    joseph – exactly!

    #1076273
    apushatayid
    Participant

    SYAG. Im a realist. People have turned down shidduchim for far less.

    DY. I dont know what I would say if the situation came up. I know how I feel now, and assume I would say then, what I feel now.

    #1076274
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    feel free to be a realist, i respect your honesty. but speak for yourself.

    #1076275
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Are either of these worse than the others?: Rejecting a shidduch because she’s a redhead, because she’s short or because she’s black?

    Joseph,

    There is one *major* difference at play here which you are ignoring.

    If I’m looking for a shidduch, I may choose not to date redheads, short girls, blacks or whatever because I am just not physically attracted to those physical traits. Since we can all agree that physical attraction is an important part of a marriage, it stands to reason that a person should not seek a spouse they are not physically attracted to.

    However, in the OP’s case, it’s not the potential spouse making the call, it’s her parents. They have *zero* say in whether or not the girl is physically attracted to the OP. The fact that they want to forbid this regardless of whether there is a physical attraction or not does, indeed, make it worse than the case you’re presenting.

    I may not be attracted to redheads (and therefore choose not to date them), but I’m certainly not going to tell my kids “you’d better not date redheads.”

    The Wolf (who, really, doesn’t have an opinion on redheads one way or the other — it’s just an example).

    #1076276
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Wolf +1

    #1076277
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf: So it’s perfectly fair to tell the shadchan not to redt any black guys to you, correct?

    #1076278
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Akuperma

    “Almost by definition, a frum family is more concerned about the frumkeit of a prospective son-in-law than any other factor.”

    Are you for real?

    Perhaps it should be like that but in reality you are way off. Read any shiduch related thread on this forum, any shiduch column in any frum publication over the past decade

    #1076279
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: So it’s perfectly fair to tell the shadchan not to redt any black guys to you, correct?

    I’m *definitely* not interested in black guys (or guys of any color) for a shidduch. 🙂

    But to answer your question – the person who is requesting the shidduch has the right to place parameters on the persons sent to them, especially when it involves physical traits. Thus, yes, I believe they can ask for certain age ranges, heights, weights and, yes, races. If there is no attraction, then there is no reason to consider it.

    However, the person will eventually have to answer to The One Above regarding whether they’re excluding people of other races on the basis of physical attraction or racism.

    Parents (or anyone else, on the other hand) should have absolutely *zero* say regarding physical characteristics that their children can and should date.

    The Wolf

    #1076280
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    he’s trying to get an idea of whats normal. I dont know if you can compare one comunity with another. if her parents arent frum, odds are theyl deal with it differently than it would be dealt with by frum parents. unless you are trying to find out how frum parents would deal with it?

    #1076281
    miritchka
    Member

    Many people put parameters in with the shadchan. For example: they wont date heavy girls/boys, they wont date someone from overseas, they will only date someone who will support for 5 years, etc…

    Honestly, if any of my children would be dating someone of another race and they were both happy, I can say, it would probably be a big pill to swallow, mainly because I’d have to build myself against the gossip and naysayers.

    I would never, ever stop a shidduch that was in the process. My parents told me when i was dating, “whoever you marry, we will love”. I felt so good about that, knowing that my parents would support my decision! I daven that I should have the siyata dishmaya to have the same outlook!

    I still have a long way to go until my children are in shidduchim, buy I’d like to think of myself as open minded and accepting of all types.

    Here’s wishing you much mazel in this scary and confusing world of shidduchim!

    #1076282
    Joseph
    Participant

    However, the person will eventually have to answer to The One Above regarding whether they’re excluding people of other races on the basis of physical attraction or racism.

    Is excluding short people or redheads due to being anti-shorty or anti-redheads as much an infraction that’ll need to be answered to The One Above as being racist? If someone is racist, wouldn’t they by definition be unattracted to people of that given race anyways?

    Parents (or anyone else, on the other hand) should have absolutely *zero* say regarding physical characteristics that their children can and should date.

    Are you as opposed to mothers who look at a shidduch picture and reject the candidate because she’s too short or “not beautiful” as you’re opposed to mothers who look at a shidduch picture and reject the candidate because she’s of a given race?

    #1076284
    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph,

    If the reason that you don’t like red heads or short people is because you believe that they are inferior, then yes, you will have answer.

    And yes, in both cases, the mother is acting wrong.

    #1076285
    ora
    Member

    i think that is crazy i met a nice guy by the kotel who was ethiopian .

    i dont care about the color it is the person .

    #1076287
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Even if/though the parents are wrong, both of you should consider if you want to be in a marriage her parents will resent. You might consider holding yourself out publically as a couple and seeing if they come around on it.

    I’ve seen people who sadly stop talking to their parents over their choice of spouse. That’s messed up. But I wonder if they would have done it had they known the result.

    #1076289
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    “If someone is racist, wouldn’t they by definition be unattracted to people of that given race anyways?”

    Youve said silly things before, but this takes the cake.

    edited

    #1076290
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    oyyoy,

    i would’ve replied the same thing but i saw your post

    #1076291
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    honored

    #1076292
    cherrybim
    Participant

    So, since you have already consulted with your Rav, how did he advise you to handle this? Is the girl a shomeres mitzvos as well? Are your parents Orthodox and how are they handling this?

    Generally, I think we could remove the racism issue if a perspective black chossen was a top learner in Lakewood or came with a huge realestate/stock portfolio.

    #1076295
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Are you as opposed to mothers who look at a shidduch picture and reject the candidate

    I’m opposed to the entire idea of mothers acting as gate-keepers for their sons and dictating whom their sons can date and whom they cannot. If they are mature enough to get married, they are certain mature enough to look at a picture and decide on their own whether or not they find the girl physically attractive.

    The Wolf

    #1076297
    Joseph
    Participant

    Certainly you must recognize and respect the age old Jewish tradition where parents are directly involved in the choosing of a spouse for their child as practiced today by some where the parents make almost the entire decision until presenting the candidate to their child for a yea or nea or the more contemporary form where the parent researches the proposal and presents it for a yea or nea for their child to go out on a date. For such traditional and time honored marriage arrangements, is a race based rejection, in your opinion, in the same category as a beauty or height based rejection?

    #1076298
    Health
    Participant

    SP -1) You’re just unlucky. 2) Forget about this girl.

    I happened to meet a Frum black girl in Mass. & there are others around. I’d go out with them if s/o would Redd it!

    #1076299
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY. I dont know what I would say if the situation came up. I know how I feel now, and assume I would say then, what I feel now.

    I’m very doubtful that you would say to your child, “G-d forbid that you have non-white children”, or the less mild things Shidduchproblem refers to, or that you would talk about gene pools.

    #1076300
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I’ve also seen those who end up alone and unmarried for far too long because they were too concerned about their parents’ wishes.

    #1076301
    Matan1
    Participant

    Joseph: “For such traditional and time honored marriage arrangements, is a race based rejection, in your opinion, in the same category as a beauty or height based rejection?”

    Yes. They are both ridiculous. Why are mothers looking at pictures of girls for her son? Let the son decide who he feels attracted to! And a mother’s racism should have no influence on her son’s marriage.

    #1076302
    oomis
    Participant

    I think that we all need to cash a reality check. We live in a society that generally does not seek to mix the races in marriage. The non-Jewish world has changed somewhat over the last decades in this regard, but the Orthodox Jewish world has not.

    It is not racist to be realistic about acknowledging the potential and VERY real problems that might be faced by a racially-mixed couple, ESPECIALLY when the parents disapprove. Marriage is hard enough under the best of circumstances. Whatever the young woman believes about possibly wanting to marry the OP, a few years down the line her parents’ feelings may have a very strong negative impact on her. Any children born of this relationship, will potentially be the innocent victims of their grandparents’ disapproval. This isn’t something to be undertaken lightly.

    And by the way, not every man is a Rabbi Akiva. Not every story of parental objection is so easy to dismiss as being the irrational hatred of a Kalba Savua. I hope the OP and his girlfriend, seek competent and compassionate advice. I wish you both luck.

    #1076304
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    akuperma – absolutely right!

    #1076305
    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    I’m unattracted to racist people, so I wouldn’t want these parents to be my in-laws. It’s their loss to not have you in their family, and their attitude sounds like enough indication that it’s probably best for you to not have them in your family either.

    #1076306
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I’m very doubtful that you would say to your child,….”

    Attitudes run deep. I’m a realist, and I know how I feel. In this theoretical exercise I can very well imagine myself saying exactly what you doubt I would. Lets take black and white out of the equation and substitute other cultural differences, say a Bucharian boy and Chassidishe girl. Would you say parents have no right to be concerned and more importantly express that concern to their child, even in strong language? would you classify it as racist?

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