Plus these people try to imitate the older bochrim who they see smoking and it gets in their head that its yeshivish to smoke.
It IS Yeshivish to smoke, as it lowers libido (both in recent experiments & Yeshiva lore).
YWN Coffee Room » Decaffeinated Coffee
SMOKING - why should it be MUTTAR?
(96 posts)-
Posted 12 months ago #
-
GAW -"If the Chazon Ish knew how to do brain surgery from learning Toirah, Kal V'Choimer the P'nei Yehoshua knew what smoking would do to the lungs from his vast knowledge of Toirah! And still, the P'nei Yehoshua said smoking is healthy. Either "Nishtanu HaTeva" (which I have never seen in an anti-smoking P'sak) , or the studies were not done on Yidden, who react physically differently than Eino Yehudim (as per Chazal)."
You're ignoring Rav Shlomo Zalman (שולחן שלמה, ערכי רפואה ח"ב, ע' ר"כ) quoted above who says that we follow the doctors of our times even when the opinion of the Rambam is otherwise.
Even though the Rambam was talking about Yidden, we don't say the doctors opinion only applies to goyim.
Posted 12 months ago # -
Yekke2: I am also a teen and know what its like. Whats the question you are asking, Why should I smoke?, or why do people smoke?.
And i do agree with you that it is a bad habbit.Posted 12 months ago # -
My Uncle, a fine frum Yid, died painfully, suffering with emphysema contracted after years of smoking. Don't tell me irrelevant misdirected arguments about the teva changing. Who cares? You deal with the teva NOW, and the teva now is to get quite ill, possibly die, and take others with you as collateral damage from their exposure to your second-hand smoke. Plus, smokers STINK (and don't know it, because they are used to their own stench, their fingers and teeth are nicotine-stained, and they tend to be very self-absorbed (who couldn't be when they believe in their RIGHT to smoke and no concerns with anyone else's right to breathe?).
Posted 12 months ago # -
Oomis - As long as a person is not steadily exposed to 2nd hand smoke the risks are marginal at most and unproven. Smoking can cause emphysema, and I'm sorry that a relative of yours suffered. Don't confuse your one valid argument with your two silly ones. Smell is opinion. I love and always have loved the smell of smoke. You don't. Your taste isn't more valid than mine.
Posted 12 months ago # -
Frumnotyeshivish - with all due respect, you could not be more mistaken. If you smoke, you smell like an ashtray. You may not mind the smell, but people around you do, plus your smell permaeates whatever place you go into, i.e. your car, someone's home (not even your own where you smoke), the clothing you wear and so forth. You have every right to enjoy that smell, but most people do not like it, especially when the odor is STALE.
Children exposed to even small amounts of second-hand smoke have a higher incidence of respiratory ailments than other children. People who work in environments where there are smokers, have been known to devekop emphysema and even lung cancer, when they have never smoked. Look at the late Dana Reeve, the widow of Christopher Reeve (played Superman) who died of lung cancer. She was not a smoker, but was exposed to it at work.
Your smoke pollutes the air that I have to breathe, along with all the other people who make a conscious decision NOT to deliebrately hurt our lungs with this poison. You should put a bubble over your head to encase yourself completely, with oxygen to breathe, and I will never say another word about your smoking, though I will daven for you that you do not get a machlah from your personal decision. Death from lung cancer is quite painful and protracted. Imagine feeling like you are drowning with no end in sight. Stop kidding yourself, and stop trying to rationalize your dangerous habit to the rest of us. Admit that you are a yetzer hara that is very powerful over you (and I KNOW it is), and instead of trying to justify it, accept that your Y"H is in control of you, and try to take steps to get control over it instead. You will save a LOT of money, and possibly your life and the lives of those around you. You are less insurable if you smoke, also. I am personally shocked that Gedolim have not assered this outright.
BTW - you are mistaken - I happen to LIKE the smell of FRESH smoke, and in particular, the delicious smell of cherry pipe tobacco. I still would not want to be exposed to it anymore, knowing what every intelligent person now knows about the danger. But even as much as that smell might be pleasant at first, once a little time has passed, it STINKS and remains in the air.
Posted 11 months ago # -
You're ignoring Rav Shlomo Zalman (שולחן שלמה, ערכי רפואה ח"ב, ע' ר"כ) quoted above who says that we follow the doctors of our times even when the opinion of the Rambam is otherwise.
Yup. I'm looking for a heter, just like all the other Yeshiva guys.
Even though the Rambam was talking about Yidden, we don't say the doctors opinion only applies to goyim.Famous Chasam Sofer with # of teeth disagrees. Rav Chaim is well known to have agreed with this shitta, as he also says Goyim have a different physiology than Yidden re: number of teeth.
(Poe's)
Posted 11 months ago # -
Makes no difference which rav you quote. Your body doesn't hold by this rebbe or that rebbe. Your body operates according to its biology. Smoking is dangerous to your health and to the health of everyone around you. Smoking is addictive. Smoking kills. Regardless of what (you think) your rebbe tells you.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Makes no difference which rav you quote. Your body doesn't hold by this rebbe or that rebbe. Your body operates according to its biology. Smoking is dangerous to your health and to the health of everyone around you. Smoking is addictive. Smoking kills. Regardless of what (you think) your rebbe tells you.
Meheicha Teise?
(Poe's)
Posted 11 months ago # -
shtickel_seichel -"Makes no difference which rav you quote. Your body doesn't hold by this rebbe or that rebbe. Your body operates according to its biology. Smoking is dangerous to your health and to the health of everyone around you. Smoking is addictive. Smoking kills. Regardless of what (you think) your rebbe tells you."
You just fell into their trap. You see there is No Poisek nowadays that holds it's Mutter (not that I know of). They all want to say they have some Heter. The ones from the previous generation didn't yet have all the info that they have now.
Even R. Moshe Z'tl, who said Mutter would Not hold that nowadays acc. to his son. But they continue to allow smoking in many Yeshivos - like it's no problem. How long do you think a guy would last in these Yeshivos with Internet service or a non-kosher cell?Posted 11 months ago # -
Health:
Reb Moshe ZT"L NEVER said muttar. I have heard that stated many times, yet no one has ever succeeded in finding where he saud muttar. The tshuvah that this "heter" is attributed was a question of whether one can supply a match (or lighter) to a smoker, considering this being a possible aveiro of לפני עור לא תתן מכשול. Reb Moshe clearly states that smoking should NOT be done, but that there is inadequate information to make this לפני עור.
I suggest that the tshuvah published by the RCA be reviewed. It addresses the subject in great detail, and explains the parameters of each and every concept involved לפני עור, שומר פתאים ה', etc. I classify myself as more right wing than RCA, but that tshuvah is incredibly accurate and responsible. Google it. It is available as a pdf file for download.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I instigated the thread, and i still hold that smoking is both crazy and assur. But still - im gonna have to side with those who say that a Yid's body is different to a Goy's - although unless there is proof of that, there is no heter. The Chazon Ish would show doctors how to do operations, and when a doctor came to him about two people with the same problem, the Chazon Ish suggested two different operations. The docrtor asked him why and he answered that one is a Jew one isn't. Different bodies.
Nonetheless, the doctors have not differentiated yet between Jews and Non-Jews, and the heter of Shomer PEsoim Hashem definitelly not apply.Posted 11 months ago # -
Even R. Moshe Z'tl, who said Mutter would Not hold that nowadays acc. to his son. But they continue to allow smoking in many Yeshivos - like it's no problem. How long do you think a guy would last in these Yeshivos with Internet service or a non-kosher cell?
Hits the nail on the head and wins the prize!!!!
Since the Roshei Yeshiva are not removing such bochrim, it is obvious that they hold it is mutter. They would certainly remove someone who was convincing others to view unfiltered internet access, or even if they were doing so in public.
Posted 11 months ago # -
"Since the Roshei Yeshiva are not removing such bochrim, it is obvious that they hold it is mutter. They would certainly remove someone who was convincing others to view unfiltered internet access, or even if they were doing so in public."
--> There are Yeshivas in Manchester that boot boys out for smoking - the Rosh Yeshiva's son was 'asked to leave' for driving and smoking during zman.
Posted 11 months ago # -
"...im gonna have to side with those who say that a Yid's body is different to a Goy's..."
That's completely wrong, no matter what you were told in yeshiva. The biology of your body has nothing to do with what your religion is.
As for the Chazon Ish, zt"l, there's not a chance I would let him into my operating room, no matter what stories you were told.
Heilige yidden will continue to die from smoking as long as we continue to pasken from 'someone who heard somebody else say in a Shaboos shmuzen that they read in a book that a certain talmid said a story about their rebbe..." Cancer cells could care less.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Gavra:
I know my statement is provocative, but here goes. You stated that the Roshei Yeshivos, by not expelling bochurim who smoke, must hold that it is muttar. You draw distinction to how they would handle someone who has unfiltered internet. You are correct. If questioned, I dare say that there is not a single Rosh Yeshiva that could justify being more stringent about internet than tobacco. If anything, smoking is a definite damage, and the issur is based on a certain result. Internet, as dangerous and risky as it is, has applications that are kosher. Poskim are correct in requiring filters and monitors. But the risk is still a percentage (albeit a big one).
What is at hand is that these same Roshei Yeshivos spent their learning years in yeshivos that did not assur smoking. My own experience was returning to the beis hamedrash after the morning shiur for mincha, and finding a thick cloud hovering from the ceiling down to a few feet from the floor. The issur is viewed as a chiddush, and not as accepted. Internet was never accepted as muttar, so they are less tolerant.
To me, the distinction is one of ignorance. Sorry that I speak thus of Roshei Yeshivos.
Posted 11 months ago # -
That's completely wrong, no matter what you were told in yeshiva. The biology of your body has nothing to do with what your religion is.
Guy on internet vs. R' Chaim. Hum, lets see who I would believe.
The issur is viewed as a chiddush, and not as accepted.
Of course not! Chadash is Assur Min HaToirah!!!
To me, the distinction is one of ignorance. Sorry that I speak thus of Roshei Yeshivos.
And as such, you can't blame the bochrim for thinking it is Muttar, no matter what is said. Action speak, words without actions don't.
There are Yeshivas in Manchester that boot boys out for smoking - the Rosh Yeshiva's son was 'asked to leave' for driving and smoking during zman.
One Yeshiva, and he had to be driving too!? Obviosly he was kicked out for driving, as smoking is not enough. Yeshiva's in EY also kick bochrim out for driving (which is much worse than smoking, as driving could lead to mixed dancing, CV, Lo Alayinu)
(Poe's)
Posted 11 months ago # -
Gavra-at-work said-
Famous Chasam Sofer with # of teeth disagrees. Rav Chaim is well known to have agreed with this shitta, as he also says Goyim have a different physiology than Yidden re: number of teeth.
1- If you'd actually look up the Chasam Sofer (ע"ז ל"א)you'd see he says explicitly it's only l'chumra not l'kulah and not with regards to sakanah.
2- Acc. to you: Don't go to the doctor, don't take asprin or any other medicine, cuz they won't work.
3- R' Chaim himself stopped smoking (late in life) as a result of what his doctor told him (R Yakov's son's book) and so did R'Avrohom Yehoshua(well known).
4- Smoking is proven to kill jews also. The Israeli medical journal הרפואה כרך 143 חוב 'ז shows heart attack's are caused by smoking among jews. 9/10 lung cancer patients are smokers, according to you the ratio should be lower among jews that's not the case according to a frum oncologist I spoke to.
5- On Yom Kippur you'd to listen to a doctor not to fast and call whoever doesn't crazy.
6- The Maharsham and others are argue on the Chasam Sofer saying even l'kulah we go with the doctors. Accoirding to Halacha by a Chshash sakana you don't have a right to follow the maikil in sakanah exept special הכרעות.
Posted 11 months ago # -
gavra_at_work - Firstly, maybe he was kicked out for smoking and the driving is the secondary reason? מהיכא תיתי smoking is better than driving? Smoking in ברי הזיקה whereas driving is a minority chance for accidents!!!
And secondly, מעשה שהיה כך היה. Boys *have* been kicked for smoking alone and driving alone, but i was just emphasizing on the Rosh Yeshiva's son, who happened to have done both.
BTW, how can driving lead to mixed dancing? Or is it just another part of your לצונות?
Posted 11 months ago # -
DISCLAIMER: I did not read the whole thread. If my question was discussed, please let me know.
Is one allowed to give a smoker a 'light'? By lighting him/her up, you are enabling him/her to hurt him/her-self.
Posted 11 months ago # -
A cute story about roshei yeshivos and smoking: In my younger days the boys voted there should be no smoking in the beis medrish. The next day we say one of the rabbeim standing in the doorway and smoking. A few of us told him, respectfully, that we voted no smoking in the beis midrash.
Ever mindful of our chinuch, our teacher said "When this place looks more like beis medrish I'll stop smoking." We accepted his mussar and needless to say he lived up to his end of the deal.
Posted 11 months ago # -
BTW, how can driving lead to mixed dancing? Or is it just another part of your לצונות?
Fiddler on the Roof.
Posted 11 months ago # -
zvei dinim: Not me, Poe's. (As in Poe's Law).
Meaning, if I were a smoking Yeshiva Bochur (which I am not), I have not been convinced. Oomis & others are aware from other threads what I feel about smoking.
Until real yeshivas (and not "some yeshiva in Manchester (UNITED! Go Red Devils!!!)", but Brisk, Mir, Lakewood, Ponevitch, etc.) treat smoking like unfiltered internet use, nothing will change. And that is why people think it is muttar, no matter what proofs, p'sakim, or pashkevels you bring. It is treated differently, so it is thought of differently.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Worry about yenems gashmius and your own ruchnius is am important saying. There are those here that would apply it to yenem smoking. They missed the boat. SayIDitIt - of course you should light someone else's cig.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Reb Moshe paskened not light someone else's cigarette. The "heter" that is derived from this ia mirage. All he stated was that it does not constitute לפני עור. Check the tshuvah.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Mr. Little I Know - "Reb Moshe ZT"L NEVER said muttar. I have heard that stated many times, yet no one has ever succeeded in finding where he saud muttar. The tshuvah that this "heter" is attributed was a question of whether one can supply a match (or lighter) to a smoker, considering this being a possible aveiro of לפני עור לא תתן מכשול. Reb Moshe clearly states that smoking should NOT be done, but that there is inadequate information to make this לפני עור.
Reb Moshe paskened not light someone else's cigarette. The "heter" that is derived from this ia mirage. All he stated was that it does not constitute לפני עור. Check the tshuvah."I have seen the Teshuva and he says Muttar. Even his son thinks that's Pshat in his Teshuva. Do you read Hebrew?
From page 1:
פשוט דלפי האגרות משה (בחו"מ ח"ב סי' עו) אסור לסמוך על שומר"
פתאים ד' בכה"ג, דמוכח שם דדעת אביו ז"ל להקל בזה אינו אלא לפי האומדנא של אותו זמן (בשנת תשמ"א) כמו שכתב שרובא דרובא מהמעשנים לא מסתכנים בזה "ורק מיעוט קטן" מסוכנים להחלות, והוסיף עוד שם שאותם
"
His son here says that his father held Muttar.Posted 11 months ago # -
GAW -"Since the Roshei Yeshiva are not removing such bochrim, it is obvious that they hold it is mutter. They would certainly remove someone who was convincing others to view unfiltered internet access, or even if they were doing so in public."
Actually you can win a prize for defending smokers, no matter what - whether it's dangerous and Ossur from the Torah -you'll still defend them.
Why if it's Ossur they aren't being thrown out -is a question you have to ask them. I'm not a RY and if I would be one - I'd be from those who throw out Bochrim for smoking from their Yeshivos.Your deduction is no deduction because s/o refusing to take action doesn't mean that what he refuses to take action on is Mutter, acc. to them. The only way I might agree to your reasoning, is if they throw out all Poiskim from Yeshivos and e/o starts bringing their chickens & their Niddah Shailos to RY's.
Until then, they aren't Paskening any Shailos, including whether Smoking is Muttar or not!Posted 11 months ago # -
A boy in my Yeshiva once took away a box of cigarretes from a good friend as a joke, and the boy wanted it back. The boy went to the Mashgiach to ask him if he can give it back or is it assur - the Mashgiach cleverly said 'I don't know if it is Assur, so give it to me and tell him if he wants them he should come and pick them up'. The boy didn't go.
The same Mashgiach announced last zman that he is taking all the smokers on an outing - to the UCH Cancer Ward for an afternoon. A few boys stopped just hearing that announcement.Posted 11 months ago # -
Actually you can win a prize for defending smokers, no matter what - whether it's dangerous and Ossur from the Torah -you'll still defend them.
Why if it's Ossur they aren't being thrown out -is a question you have to ask them. I'm not a RY and if I would be one - I'd be from those who throw out Bochrim for smoking from their Yeshivos.
And that is what makes us both LWMO. :-)
It is a matter of priorities, and smoking is so low down, it is being treated as muttar.Posted 11 months ago # -
GAW -"LWMO" Don't know what this stands for.
"It is a matter of priorities, and smoking is so low down, it is being treated as muttar."
Exactly. This one of the reasons I'm against Asifas. Because whatever you make the Asifa on -you lower the priority of something else.
So if you make an Asifa against the Net, many other things lose their priority; eg. smoking, Loshon Hora, etc.Posted 11 months ago # -
very little seichel- As for the Chazon Ish, zt"l, there's not a chance I would let him into my operating room, no matter what stories you were told.very little seichel.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Toi there is documentation of the Chazon Ish's instructions for brain surgery (Shu"t Ugnazim Chazon Ish vol. 1), which subsequently saved the patients life. If the patient would've thought like you he'd have been dead.
Regardless, Chazon Ish himself didn't think smoking was healthy (letter to Steiper ibid).
He also didn't believe he knew all medicine as GAW thinks. He'd ask doctors questions regarding being mechalel Shabbos or Yom Kipur for sick people (Maaseh ish).Posted 11 months ago # -
zvei dinim -"Toi there is documentation of the Chazon Ish's instructions for brain surgery (Shu"t Ugnazim Chazon Ish vol. 1), which subsequently saved the patients life."
I knew the guy. He had the surgery as a baby. I knew him as an adult. He had quite a few kids. He was left with a skin disease and subsequently lost an ear. They say this happenned because the Docs didn't do exactly as the Chazon Ish said. His tumor eventually came back and he died about twenty years ago.
Posted 11 months ago # -
zvei dinim- i was quoting someone called shtik seichel. i was making fun by calling that person very little seichel. at the end of my quote, i further reiterated my opinion of that poster which, incidentally, agrees with yours.
Posted 11 months ago # -
zvei dinim- the chazon ish also said that smoking causes one to forget his torah see maaseh ish 2 162 http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51555&st=&pgnum=162
and teshuvos vhanhagos 4 115 http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&st=&pgnum=112Posted 11 months ago # -
lakewhut- I'm not sure if you are intentionally ignoring my previous post- ( on the first page) because you don't have a solid reason or because it was simply overlooked, but please respond! i'm willing to listen if there is a valid answer...... and please don't just say I won't understand, because you'd be surprised. and that would just prove my point of not having validity.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Just today, two boys got booted from Yeshiva for smoking after the Mashgiach told them explicitly not to smoke on the premises. Five cigarrettes later - OUT!!!
Posted 11 months ago # -
Just today, two boys got booted from Yeshiva for smoking after the Mashgiach told them explicitly not to smoke on the premises. Five cigarrettes later - OUT!!!
Boruch Hashem. Now what are these children going to do with themselves (I know, I'm not happy either way).
I also hope the school would do something if they were found smoking off the school grounds, just as if they had been spotted with girls or unfiltered internet access.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Boruch Hashem. Now what are these children going to do with themselves (I know, I'm not happy either way).
I also hope the school would do something if they were, found smoking off the school grounds, just as if they had been spotted with girls or unfiltered internet access.- Firstly, they are not children, they are 'responsible' eighteen year old בחורים. Secondly this is not a school, it is a ישיבה.
- 'What are these teens going to do with themselves : Simple. Holiday for a week in shame, and they can 'reapply' next week. Next week they will have to sign a contract [i guess] not to smoke, and they won't smoke again in ישיבה. Gives them a week holiday, teaches them a lesson, makes an impession on all other smokers and nobody gets hurt in the bargain.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Bump???
Nobody has given a satisfying answer yet - a good reason why a person would begin smoking without pressure [Peer pressure is NOT a good reason]...
Posted 11 months ago # -
yekke- "[Peer pressure is NOT a good reason]..."
It might not be a GOOD reason, but that's why they do it.
Posted 11 months ago # -
bump
lakewhut...... still waiting....Posted 11 months ago # -
ill tell you why most yeshiva guys have no problem smoking ....a good answer for everyone that is wondering...almost every yeshiva guy smoking now thinks/knows that he is going to quit before he starts dating/gets married wtvr but would never dream of smoking when they are married and have kids...i personally dont understand how people can smoke while they are married, it kills you and others, etc etc but actually quitting is a whole other story..when they realize that it is harder to quit then they thought.... that is where the problems begin...the fact is that it is very hard to quit...everyone knows that...i dont have a solution..but i hopefully gave you a little insight into why guys smoke in the first place
Posted 11 months ago # -
Don't start and you won't have to worry about how to stop and whether or not it is muttar. You will also save a BOATLOAD of money, be healthier and cleaner, and not turn people off with your yellow teeth, stained nails, and stench (one, which smokers tend to be oblivious to, just like dog owners never notice the doggy smell in their house). Better yet, you will probably live longer, and help keep the air you and your loved ones (as well as the rest of us) breathe, cleaner. It's a no-brainer.
Posted 11 months ago # -
They generally start at an age when they think they are invincible and that they can escape all harm, which is the mindset of most teenagers. They also don't realize how insanely difficult it will be to stop because they all think they will be the one to beat the odds and prove that are better because they will be able to quit without a problem.
Then they enter their twenties and they realize that life is real and they actually want to stop. The reality is that anyone can quit but the withdrawel is so intense, it's almost not worth it.Posted 11 months ago # -
ZABACHUR - i understand the way you are getting around the point of addiction - but WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO START???
Would a single sane person in the world who is not depressed begin smoking if he was in a room alone? Is there such a tremendous need to be seen as 'Cool'???Posted 11 months ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
RSS