So I left

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  • #604822
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So this place I live, this kid started a daf yomi shiur. So I decided maybe I’ll go to it.

    So I reckoned for a while if it was a pchisus for me to go, and it was, but I decided to go anyway.

    So I went. And sat down. And then they are setting up, and these two girls come in and sit down. See how dumb I am? It was obvious that girls would come. So I left.

    See how interesting this is, though. The guy of course cannot ask them not to come (in this situation). And of course he should do the shiur anyway. And the girls are not malicious–they are just misguided and naive. And of course I cannot attend.

    And that’s how it was.

    #1066787
    shein
    Member

    That’s the obvious (and correct) reaction to such a misguided situation. So what’s the chiddush here?

    #1066788
    Matan1
    Participant

    What was wrong with the girls coming to the shiur. Nobody was making them go. They were learn on their own accord. The Prishah matirs this.

    #1066789
    Health
    Participant

    Matan1 -“What was wrong with the girls coming to the shiur. Nobody was making them go. They were learn on their own accord. The Prishah matirs this.”

    PBA -did the right thing. 1. The Prisha is a Daas Yochid.

    2. There probably wasn’t a Mechiza, so it’s Taroovos.

    #1066790
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: I cannot argue with you if you don’t hold by the Prishah. That is a lengthy Sugya and there are Tzdadim either way. However, a Mechitzah isn’t necessary. R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah about a “Meeting Shel Society” where he says it’s Muttar to give a D’var Torah afterwards even if there are women there and he does not necessitate a Mechitza.

    #1066791
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    2. There probably wasn’t a Mechiza, so it’s Taroovos.

    No, both were issur.

    #1066792
    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    Does that mean that Rav Moshe also Mattirs Lechatchila to have just a shiur that will be coed?

    #1066793
    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: I don’t know. As far as I know he doesn’t have a T’shuvah on that issue. I was just pointing out that a Mechitzah wouldn’t be the deciding factor. I always found his Lashon in this one funny though (I forget where it is, it’s towards the end of either O.C 2, 3, or 4).

    #1066794
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    No, both were issur.

    snort

    #1066795
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“WIY: I don’t know. As far as I know he doesn’t have a T’shuvah on that issue. I was just pointing out that a Mechitzah wouldn’t be the deciding factor.”

    You most certainly do know, but you pretend. 1. Rav Moshe was talking about a man giving a Shiur to ladies. 2. I even seen Chashuva Rabbis giving a Speech/Shiur to ladies and men at the same time, but they were separated. Don’t you have an imagination? From the description, it sounded like a small Shiur and the girls were real close by. Stop trying to say everything is Mutter. I’m not a Machmir, but this is obviously Ossur.

    #1066796
    2scents
    Participant

    I do not believe that Reb Moshe would stay at such a shiur either.

    #1066798
    Nechomah
    Participant

    OhTeeDee – I seriously think you misunderstand the situation. PBA truly loves his wife and his mother and his daughters. He simply understands that contact with women is not a free thing. If he were your husband, you would not want him freely socializing with women. This is also a matter of what is permitted to teach to women and in what circumstances. There are so many wonderful things that a woman can learn and do and it doesn’t have with men to be on a level that is equal to theirs in their own right. It does not have be taken in the context of misogynistic or childish when a person realizes that temptation can occur without one even realizing it and this is a difficult thing for some people to control.

    #1066799
    Matan1
    Participant

    Nechoma,

    Maybe the reason that people are susceptible to improper thoughts is because we hyper sexualize everything. If you say that a skirt much be 4 inches below the knee, then if a man sees a woman in a skirt 3 inches below the knee, he will have improper thoughts. If sitting in the same woman is considered taboo(non yichud situation), then when are in a room with a woman, you will have those thoughts.

    We obviously have to take this in the context of halacha, but we must realize that unnecessary chumros might be hurting us more than they are helping us.

    #1066800
    HaKatan
    Participant

    OTD, the problem is the mixed atmosphere and unnecessary “drawing close to each other” that this type of gathering brings. It’s really not a matter of anyone’s intellectual level.


    Matan1, please cite which chumra or chumros is/are unnecessary, and who imposes it/them.

    On the other hand, some feel that it’s better to dress so that the skirt only covers the knees when you are both bending over and tugging on it at the same time. And this is not a worse “hyper-sexualization”?

    Besides, by your logic, we might as well adopt the standards of the nations and just throw the whole inyan out the window. Why shouldn’t a woman wear shorts and a sleeveless tank top (if even that) rather than out holy and dignified way of dress? Let’s not “hyper-sexualize” the arms and legs, right?

    It so happens that your logic is that of the nations, while the Torah’s logic says exactly the opposite. Chazal says about this particular Yetzer HaRa that masbio ra’ev whereas mar’ivo save’a. So if a tempting circumstance of any sort were to arise, CH”V, you’re better off if you are as clean as possible, not CH”V the other way.

    I’m not saying to go crazy with unnecessary chumros. But Chaza”l knew what they were talking about. Let’s not pretend to be smarter than Chazal.

    #1066801
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    FTR:

    1. I walked out because it was a gemara shiur; I probably would have stayed it was a chumash shiur.

    2. That is only because of the norms in this shul. I happen to think that a more proper norm is that men and women should not be part of the same interactive shiur. But if this is the norm, then I don’t find it so objectionable that I have to leave.

    #1066802
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: This case is also a man giving a Shiur to ladies. And look at R’ Moshe’s T’suvah on a “Meeting Shel Society”, he says that it’s okay to give the co-ed D’var Torah.

    #1066803
    Health
    Participant

    Sam – Are you now saying Rav Moshe was Mattir giving a Shiur when men and ladies were sitting next to each other? I don’t believe he ever did this.

    #1066804
    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: Read the T’shuvah. Unless I am grossly misrecalling this, he doesn’t require a Mechitzah nor does he say that they can’t sit next to each other. (Maybe he is assuming that they already weren’t, but I don’t recall it saying that in the T’shuvah.)

    #1066805
    cherrybim
    Participant

    L’halacha, you only need a seperation for davening and mingling. To the others: how do you sit on a bus or at a chupa without a m’chitza?

    #1066806
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m sorry, is this mechitza thing you are all talking about related to the mechitza bpeh issue being debated in NYC right now? Is that somehow related to this shiur?

    #1066807
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    PBA: Had the girls been behind a mechitza, would you have left?

    #1066808
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Gavra:

    Maybe not. But not because of the taaruvos aspect, but because then it could be that they are not really part of the shiur and are just listening in.

    If they were behind the mechitza and participating by asking questions, I certainly would have left.

    #1066809
    yichusdik
    Participant

    pba – lol

    #1066810
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mechitzah b’peh would be if you tell the women to leave.

    In my neighborhood, two different magidei shiur were offered a well paying position to give a gemara shiur, but it was known that there was a woman who wanted to attend. Both asked their respective rebbeim, who both said the same thing; it might or might not be assur, but either way, don’t do it.

    #1066811
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“Unless I am grossly misrecalling this, he doesn’t require a Mechitzah nor does he say that they can’t sit next to each other. (Maybe he is assuming that they already weren’t, but I don’t recall it saying that in the T’shuvah.)”

    That’s exactly my point. He is assuming it, because if he held sitting next to or very near each other wasn’t Taaruvous -he’d say so!

    In the olden times, well not that long ago, in the Frum world, not the MO world, Yeshiva dinners/ Chasunahs were almost all mixed. But people sat next to their wives, family, etc. Noone sat next to or very near, strange women/girls.

    If you sit next to a strange girl/woman during a Torah Shiur, this is a classic case of “Mitzva Haboh B’aveira”!

    #1066812
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If they were behind the mechitza and participating by asking questions, I certainly would have left.

    What if they would have texted their questions on a Kosher phone? How about a non-Kosher phone?

    Just trying to get to the bottom of this 🙂

    #1066813
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I don’t understand. You’re being Mocheh against someone holding like the Drisha?

    #1066814
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why, what does the drisha hold about mechitza bpeh?

    #1066815
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What if they would have texted their questions on a Kosher phone?

    Isn’t that an oxymoron?

    #1066816
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I forget where it is, it’s towards the end of either O.C 2, 3, or 4

    It’s in Yoreh Deiah 2:109:

    ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?????????? ??? ?? ????????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ??????

    ?????

    ??? ?????????

    See also Orach Chaim 5:12:3 where he writes:

    ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??????

    ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????

    #1066817
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I always thought drisha sounded a bit feminine.

    Is this why that place in NYC where they are mevazeh Hashem is called drisha?

    #1066818
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, you’re just more used to hearing the word drisha about that place in the UWS so you think of it as feminine.

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