Why are you even arguing?
No such Rov exists on this planet, who holds that 13 year old boys should become stone drunk.
Period.
Anyone who gives a 13 year old hard booze to drink, is a rasha, and should be arrested - including the rov who you claim says this.
Wine.
Why are you even arguing?
Because I find I have the need to fight ignorance and stupidity.
No such Rov exists on this planet, who holds that 13 year old boys should become stone drunk.
Period.
I know that no such rav exists (at least in the US). I'm just calling his bluff.
Canine wants to demand that I respect his poskim just as I ask that he respects mine. That's fine... but he has to show that there is such a posek to begin with. I'm not required to respect figments of imagination.
The Wolf
Any rov who paskan's that 13 year old's should get stone drunk on WINE is a rasha, and the people who give them to drink should be arrested.
No such rov holds like this in the year 2011.
And if he is so proud of his psak Halacha, he should publicize it. Not tell "canine" to post it in the CR anonymously.
Just last week Rav Chaskel Roth, the Karlsburg Ruv was in Lakewood for a few days, and was asked what age should boys get drunk. And his response was "18 years old".
This sound clip is available on the internet.
And he's a senior Posek.
You want me to post my rov (who so paskens)? It can only happen PRIVATELY to your rov.
Baloney. There's no reason why my rav has to ask on my behalf.
If you don't want to post it publicly, you can send it to me via email.
There is a whole 'nother thread with the consensus being it inappropriate to ask for a rov's name.
I'm not asking for *your* rav. I'm asking for *any* rav who so paskens today. Is your rav the only one who so paskens? If so, then that probably says a lot about your rav. If not, then give me the name of any rav who so paskens.
The Wolf
I agree with Y.W. Editor. Wolf, don't waste your time arguing over someone's imagination.
18 is pretty reasonable.
I would certainly want to heavily supervise the drinking of anyone under 18.
However, completely withholding all drinks from them can often lead to some serious backlash.
Just re-reading all canines nonsense.
Its just incredible that he says ad dlo yada means "stone drunk", and a (secret) rov holds that it should start from age 13, and its a huge secret which rov holds this.
Yeah.
If it wasn't sad, and in this case pikuach nefashos, it would be funny.
While your at it, call some Hatzolah volunteers up. Better yet, maybe visit the Maimonides ER at 2am the first night Purim, and see for yourself.
There is no posek anywhere, at any time mimitzrayim v'ad henah who says that there is a chiyuv for anyone, at any age, to drink to the point that they cause themselves permanent physical harm. People do this to themselves regularly on purim and simchas Torah. There is a mitzvah to drink and to get drunk, but no mitzvah to be a danger to yourself and others. I personally don't start the very heavy drinking until after mincha when I'm home for the seuda already so that I'm no more than mildly buzzed and in full control before then.
I was once in the ER one purim (nothing about drinking) and it was very sad to see a young 3 year old boy coming in for stiches with the grandmother because the mother had a baby and the father was stone drunk. So even if there is a mitzvah to drink keep in mind that העוסק במצוה פטור מן המצוה. your first obligation is to watch your kids.
mw13 sorry for responding so late. (may be aver and batel already)
basically i was not trying to knock drinking on purim, just commenting that its interesting that this is one mitzvah that many feel so passionately about, haleveai we were so passionate about... any other mitzva! limud torah, tefiala, tznius, shmiras halashon ...the list goes on.
Drunk = Chillul Hashem. No kaparah except misah. I would agree with canine and mw13 if they would get locked into a room and drink themselves into a stew, but we know that's not the case. They have to have a crowd (hey! look at me!), make a raucous, and wallow in their own vomit which nebech someone else has to clean up.
Canine,
Just to further make my point that your refusal to name a rav is baloney, you posted above (emphasis mine):
Now I understand there are some minority opinions that hold otherwise.
Since you seem to believe that the majority hold like you, it should not be difficult for you to come up with the name of a single rav who paskens that thirteen year old boys are required to get stone drunk.
The Wolf
Drunk = Chillul Hashem.
Right. So this is the exact argument I am rejecting.
The gemara says to get "drunk". Many poskim read this literally, including the shulchan aruch.
Rav Yisroel Salanter was seen on purim lying drunk under a table. (I heard this with the exact tracing of the story back to the Alter of Kelm. The end of the story is that as soon as they klopped "barchu", he stood and acted completely sober.)
Even the shittos that hold that the gemara is bringing the story to show that you should not get drunk anymore, agree that previous to the story, you were supposed to get mind numbingly drunk. Otherwise, why were the amoraim doing it?
There are writings which discuss why G-d would want us to get drunk, and you can read them. I saw one in the back of the small sefer הסבא מסלבודקא.
Now, we can discuss how to go about it, and what other considerations there are, and which shittos we paskin like.
But remember this. There are very valid shittos that you are chayav to get very very drunk. It does not behoove you to make light of them.
I don't know if I'd say that every drunk is a Chillul HaShem... but the opportunities for Chillul HaShem certainly increase exponentially when one becomes drunk.
The Wolf
PBA - "I would certainly want to heavily supervise the drinking of anyone under 18."
All bochurim should be supervised, even in their 20's. Some married adults also need supervision. Usually it's the wife, not his parents; she just has one more kid to watch on Purim.
"it was very sad to see a young 3 year old boy coming in for stiches with the grandmother"
I think I should charge double for closing wounds on Purim, even though I don't need to use Lidocaine because they feel no pain.
Why are peple arguing on halacha here. if the Shulchan Aruch sez that the din is to get drunk why are people making a tummult here?
mosherose: I repeat. No (sober) posek, mimitzrayim v'ad henah has ever said that there was a mitzvah to drink to the point that you risk permanent physical harm.
You must log in to post.
RSS