Struggling with Cholov Yisrael..

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  • #1389904

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To be fair, she’s unhappy that I said she’s overstepping her bounds.

    I did say that I didn’t have time to respond point by point, which she perhaps took to mean that I didn’t have time to read her posts.

    I did in fact read them, though. They just haven’t swayed me.

    #1389908

    thechef88
    Participant

    You are correct. Pride of the farm is by far the tastiest dairy product from milk to ice cream and lasts the longest

    #1389907

    out of town yid
    Participant

    I am stuck in a small city in the Midwest, without a Jewish community. All Kosher food here is tough to get and very expensive , if I can get it at all. Cholov Yisroel is but a dream here, although the local Walmart DOES have one item, a gluten free wafer from Israel. So, I have had to do away with no dairy products at all, except the possible wafers, I used them as my DAIRY on Shavuous! Needless to say, my diet here is extremely limited.

    #1389935

    Joseph
    Participant

    OOTY, you ought to move to a large frum community.

    #1390918

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    out of town yid,

    If there is a Chabad shul anywhere in the vicinity, they are likely getting large orders of cholov Yisroel products shipped to them. You can contact them and ask if they can add some products for you onto their order.

    #1390949

    out of town yid
    Participant

    local chabad shul is very weak, Rabbi does get milk from a dairy in vicinity….but charges $7.00 a gallon, not available in smaller. No other cy products available there. He goes there, about 50 or more miles each way or more, once a week. A gallon is too much for me and I also cannot afford it….I use almond milk instead. (parve) A store nearby (300 miles away) has some cholov Yisroel available ($6.59 for J & J 8 oz cream cheese, if even in stock. A package of muenster cheese 6 oz is about $7.00) Both I cannot even begin to afford. I do not have a car, so I depend on someone to get these and other thins for me…if I can find anyone going there. I use Toffuti products when available locally instead….also not cheap at $4.29 a package or more. Harmony cheese has cholov yisroel star k available, see web site, carefully, kosher is a bit hidden there.. They will ship to you, but have a minimum order, shipping is expensive, cheese comes in blocks, not sliced. Sometimes they may have one pounders available, but usually 5 pound blocks or more needs to be ordered. Has a few varieties available. One need a good cheese slicer. I would love to move to a much more viable Jewish community but I lack needed resources to do so, does anyone have any ideas about this….how and where to relocate?

    #1390984

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the Holy City of Brooklyn Kosher food is much cheaper and easily available, but the rents will kill you

    #1391023

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lakewood has inexpensive rent plus low cost kosher food.

    #1391037

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Lakewoood Ir Hakodesh isnt so cheap anymore so people are moving to Toms River and Jackson

    #1391049

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rent is very cheap in Lakewood.

    #1391530

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    And I did not express any opinion on chalav stam.
    You wrote:
    According to the way the OP described his Rav’s response, this does not seem to be a halachic question per se’. It is muttar to drink/eat chalav stam and the Rav whom he asked did not say that it’s assur for him to do so. As far as I can tell, the issue is not “Is he allowed to eat chalav stam?” but “Should he do so?”

    I mean that I hadn’t expressed my own opinion on chalav stam. In the post you quote, I was saying that according to the Rav whom he asked, it’s muttar to eat chalav stam (and therefore it is muttar for him to eat it if he trusts this Rav).

    #1391531

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ‘’You seem to assume that anyone going through a tough time needs to be meikil.’’

    I never said anything of the sort. I never even said that he should be meikel or go to a Rav who will tell him to be meikel. If you think that I did, you did not read what I wrote carefully.

    ‘’That may very well be true in some cases, but may very well be damaging in others. Perhaps long term, some individuals may be better off holding fast to their standards, rather than slacking off and feeling as if they was too weak and caved in.’’

    Which is what I said. And that shows that you didn’t read what I wrote (or not carefully enough) before commenting.

    ‘’It’s not something you and I should be opining, or opining that he should be second guessing the rav to whom he first asked the shailah.’’

    I didn’t second guess the Rav; he did. I told him the qualifications that I thought a Rav should have in order to be able to answer the question, and that he should make sure to ask a Rav who has those qualifications.

    #1391532

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ‘’To be fair, she’s unhappy that I said she’s overstepping her bounds.
    I did say that I didn’t have time to respond point by point, which she perhaps took to mean that I didn’t have time to read her posts.
    I did in fact read them, though. They just haven’t swayed me.’’

    1. In two of the threads I was referring to, you specifically told me that you hadn’t read the posts (that the discussion was about).

    2. As far as this thread is concerned, you did not read my posts carefully. When someone writes that you didn’t read their posts carefully, that means that from your posts, it is clear that you misunderstood their posts, and that you wrote that they wrote things that they didn’t write.

    Since I have a high opinion of your intelligence, I assumed that you hadn’t read my posts carefully, and that if you had done so, you would not have misunderstood. Perhaps I am over-rating your intelligence, but I really think that if you would go back and reread my posts carefully, you would realize that you misunderstood what I wrote and made very inaccurate and unfair assumptions.

    And even if I’m wrong (which I really don’t think so) and you really aren’t capable of understanding what I wrote, the fact still remains that you misunderstood me and you think that I said something I didn’t, so you should please stop criticizing me!!!

    #1391533

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “It took four until I got a heter.
    The first three didn’t actually say it was assur, they just didn’t think it was a good idea, so I took it as license to keep asking.”

    That’s because you don’t know how to ask sheilahs. It only took me one. After he said “no”, I explained the emotional issues involves, and he changed his answer.

    #1391535

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Some of the proofs that you didn’t read what I wrote carefully:

    You wrote:
    “You seem to assume that anyone going through a tough time needs to be meikil. That may very well be true in some cases, but may very well be damaging in others. Perhaps long term, some individuals may be better off holding fast to their standards, rather than slacking off and feeling as if they was too weak and caved in.’’
    ‘’ You are assuming that had the first rav understood his emotional state, he would find room to be meikil on cholov stam.’’

    I had written:

    “Don’t look for a lenient Rav – look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities. Look for a Rav who won’t just tell you what to do, but how to do it. If he doesn’t think you should stop c”y, he will give you an alternative (as DY suggested).”

    #1391561

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why did you assume that the first rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities, unless you didn’t like his answer?

    #1391746

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamaid,

    Since I have a high opinion of your intelligence, I assumed that you hadn’t read my posts carefully, and that if you had done so, you would not have misunderstood.

    If someone who I believe is highly intelligent misunderstands something I wrote and also states that he read it carefully, I would assume that what I wrote must not have clearly conveyed what I was intending it to convey. Even if I thought I stated it well, at the end of the day I’m not writing for myself, I’m writing to communicate. So my next step would be to attempt to clarify or rephrase what I’m trying to communicate, using the misunderstanding as a guide. Questioning the intelligence or honesty of the audience, however, is counterproductive.

    #1391786

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Or perhaps the disclaimers simply ring hollow.

    #1392620

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Why did you assume that the first rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities, unless you didn’t like his answer?”

    Where did I write that the first Rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities?

    #1392619

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    5. “Questioning the intelligence or honesty of the audience, however, is counterproductive.”

    Which is precisely what DY is doing to me when he keeps accusing me of saying something that I didn’t, and that I keep saying that I didn’t.

    I agree with you 100% that it is important to make sure that what I wrote is phrased clearly. And I am more than happy to hear if someone thinks that it wasn’t and explains how it should be phrased. If DY thinks that I didn’t express myself clearly and wants to politely explain to me how I should rephrase things or how the words I am using can lead to a misunderstanding, I would really be more than happy to hear. But that is not what he has been doing.

    If he or you would like to do so now, I really would be more than happy to hear. But I would appreciate it if you could take the time to first read EVERY post of mine and his VERY carefully.

    And since I took the time to respond to DY’s posts and show him how I did not say the things that he accused me of saying, I think that it is only right that he read my responses carefully and respond to them before making any more comments. I very clearly showed him, in several instances, that I did not write the things he accused me of writing. I don’t think it’s appropriate to make accusations against someone, and then not to respond to their responses, and instead to keep accusing them.

    #1392618

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Avram,

    1.”Questioning the intelligence or honesty of the audience, however, is counterproductive.”

    Chas v’shalom, I have the highest respect for DY’s intelligence and honesty. That was my point. I really do think that if he reads my posts carefully, he will see that I did not write the things he is accusing me of writing.

    2. “If someone who I believe is highly intelligent misunderstands something I wrote and also states that he read it carefully..”

    He hadn’t said that at the point that the comment being referred to had been made (about “overstepping boundaries”). He also didn’t say that later on, as you would see if you read his posts carefully. He said that he had read them, not that he had read them carefully. But at the point in question, he hadn’t even said that he had read them. (post 1389862, which is the post that I was defending).

    3. It is not an accusation of dishonesty to say that someone did not read what I wrote carefully as seen by their response. It happens very frequently (especially in the CR) that someone posts something that shows that they haven’t read all the posts in the thread carefully. I’m sure that I have done it myself, and I’m sure that you have as well.

    4. You seem to be missing the context of the statements that you are attacking. DY had said this: ” I think you are overstepping your boundaries by giving halachic advice where you think you are able to assess a poster’s emotional state. And yes, it’s halachic advice, because the cholov stam issue is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.”

    In that statement, he falsely accused me of saying something that I hadn’t said, and in so doing “overstepping my boundaries.” I thought that his falsely accusing me in this way was “overstepping his boundaries”. I was very offended by that comment, and I do not see anything wrong with telling someone who offends you by falsely accusing you of “overstepping your boundaries” that he is “overstepping his boundaries” by doing so. In fact, I think that was a very polite way to respond to a very offensive comment.

    The posts you are attacking were my defending my right to do so, after I was attacked for doing so.

    #1392631

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Nobody is attacking. Having a conversation, even a disagreement, is not an attack. It has happened here that your use of that phrase when people have disagreements with you causes people to back off and stifles them. Perhaps you could read those posts again very carefully and see that a disagreement is not an attack, and people should not, c”v feel too intimidated to respond.

    #1392633

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Where did I write that the first Rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities?

    You actually even quoted yourself saying that a few posts back.

    “Look for a Rav who is both grounded in halacha and sensitive to emotional realities.”

    I know, you’re going to say that you didn’t actually say that the first rav wasn’t sensitive to emotional realities. And that’s technically true. But you are missing how your posts are coming across.

    I’m sorry if you think I’m attacking you and making false accusations against you. That’s not my intent.

    You can choose to insist that you very carefully wrote disclaimers at every turn, but think about why you need to write all these disclaimers – because you realize that it sounds like you’re saying that the first rav was wrong, but you know you can’t say that, so you’re disclaiming that.

    But it still sounds that way.

    The same is true with a few points in this discussion; that’s an example.

    I’m sorry that I’ve hurt your feelings. Again, that certainly wasn’t my intent.

     

    #1393861

    Bobchka
    Participant

    When the op says having issues with CY are you also makpid on powdered​ milk? Have heard from a high up in the CRC in Illinois that if you are not then all milk chocolate is edible by such a person as there is not a company that uses anything but powdered milk as liquid milk will ruin the chocolate. It also helps on most dry product with an oud as from a cost factor companies use powdered milk

    #1460931

    out of town yid
    Participant

    So that we all know WHERE cholov Yisroel is coming from….where are the products being processed and packaged? WE SHOULD be able to go directly to where products come from, so that if NOT available in OUR area, we might be able to go to the source to obtain the products directly. Where are the farms and the processing facilities? Some farms nay be in certain locations in upstate NY, or in some place in another state producing dairy products such as Wisconsin or California. No local stores in these areas may carry anything, but we should have some sort of directory of where to go to get product direct from processing or production facility…..and when to go, as may not be available every day. I wish that the Kashrus agencies would publicize this information. WHERE are products from various companies actually being packaged? We should be able to go there and directly get products. Products may be processed and packaged somewhere in upstate NY, or another area….but not being SOLD nearby, is a big problem for the few Cholov Yisroel customers who might live somewhere near that area. They may have to travel far away to get their products, yet the products are actually produced near them.The problem is that no local store will get the product. In Wisconsin, for example, much cheese may be produced or packaged there, but where. It might be somewhat near somebody who might use that product, but the nearest stores where it might be available might be hundreds of miles away.
    Cholov Yisroel information should be much more available. ONE company that I know of, makes a few cheeses under STAR K is on the internet and will ship the cheese to you. the varied selection is mostly cholov Yisroel. The location is probably reasonable driving distance from Milwaukee, Postville, or Minnesota. The company is called HARMONY CHEESE. But products are not currently available in their own local cheese store. BUT you can place an order for pick up. Cheese is not sliced but is in one or 5 lb blocks or larger. This cheese is often sold wholesale to stores. Invest in a good cheese cutter! Check the website carefully for the kosher cheeses as most of their products are not kosher. A few cheeses may also be kosher for Pesach. I have had a few of their products. They were shipped to me. They are located in central rural Wisconsin, nowhere near any established Jewish community I am aware of at this time. I would hope that other companies would also be able and willing to ship their products directly to you. I understand that SHTARK cheeses may also be produced in Wisconsin, but of course would not be sold in local stores in the area….and there are probably very few Yidden around in Wisconsin anyway. I have no idea of availability of many of these items in other areas. Our cholov Yisroel dairy product companies are all producing and packaging their products in remote areas, probably not anywhere near where MOST Yidden live. BUT, it would be nice to sometimes be able to do a pickup rather than have to travel far to a store to obtain them. There are, surprisingly Yidden in some remote areas far from established Jewish communities. Not many, only a few, here and there. AND…if one was travelling in one of these areas……

    And…milk….In the EAST we have the familiar Golden Flow, and other brands in NY area….Pride of the Farm in NJ and Baltimore, etc. I understand that in the midwest, probably somewhere in Wisconsin there is a company with a name something like Lammer. I saw this company when I was in a store in Chicago.. I am not aware of the hashgacha. We should know the actual location of their bottling facilities and be able to pick up milk directly from all of these places. AS milk must be available fast, and is not able to be transported very long distances, most of these companies are quite regional.

    #1460950

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    I dont know if this is helpful but many dairy products especially milk by law has to have a plant # on the packaging. Once u hsve that number ,go look it on line and u will know where that dairy plant is located.

    #1461110

    Meno
    Participant

    The production companies most probably do not want people showing up at their plants to buy a gallon of milk.

    That’s how the whole wholesale/retail system works.

    #1461122

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Someplaces actually have laws about customers showing up and buying things, you might need licenses and insurances that many companies dont want to get (Along with Hiring a Cashier and other people to work the store)

    #1461426

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    Takes 2

    There are laws on the books in most states that the farms aren’t allowed to sell milk directly to consumers because the mole isn’t pasteurized etc.

    As far as going into the bottling facilities in concerned, be ready for them to laugh you out of there. They are companies, NOT stores!!!

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