Talking in Shul

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  • #1467482

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Zohar Parshes Terumoh, unity creates sanctity. Hashem rests where there is sanctity. If someone talks in shul, he breaks up the unity and drives out Hashem.

    #1467532

    Joseph
    Participant

    Hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered during Tach V’Tat, the Tosfos Yom Tov says, as a result of the widespread talking in shul.

    #1467539

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Look at the Zohar Parshes Terumoh, unity creates sanctity. Hashem rests where there is sanctity. If someone talks in shul, he breaks up the unity and drives out Hashem.

    Not that I’m defending people who talk in shul (that’s one my pet peeves), but if *everyone* talks in shul, then aren’t they still in a state of unity?

    The Wolf

    #1467547

    laskern
    Participant

    No, because each will be talking about his own concerns.

    #1467567

    laskern
    Participant

    If people are not concerned about the prayer of others when they are talking in shul, then I can assume that their talking is about themselves.

    #1467564

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No, because each will be talking about his own concerns.

    And if they’re all discussing the same topic?

    The Wolf

    #1467573

    laskern
    Participant

    What are the chances that their own concerns will be the same topic?

    #1467646

    laskern
    Participant

    When Jews are concerned with other’s deficiencies as it says בורא נפשות רבות וחסרונן
    by praying not only for ourselves but also for others, we create unity. But, when we only care for ourselves and not for others as it says when Yaakov Avinu saw the ladder in his dream ויקץ יעקב משנתו ויאמר says the Baal Haturim that the last letters add up to צבור following אכן יש ה במקום הזה behold Hashem rests in this place ואנכי לא ידעתי when we put aside the אנכי our self the ego as the Baal Shem Tov interprets אנכי עומד בין ה וביניכם the self the ego stands between us and Hashem we create disunity.

    #1467649

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    People don’t talk just about their own concerns. They can even talk all about the same topic and all with the same point of view. It’s a very unifying activity that doesn’t belong in shul.

    #1467683

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, are you cherry picking again? Rabbi Heller ( the Tosfos Yom Tov ) also believed in secular learning. He was well versed in secular science with a particular interrst in arithmatic, natural sciences and astronomy. He was also interested in philosophy and works by non Jews. So, if you accept his psak on the cause of the massacres, i assume you accept his views on secular learning

    #1467792

    laskern
    Participant

    Most Jews are davening, but some talk which creates disunity with those that are davening.

    #1467819

    laskern
    Participant

    If everyone talks in shul, that unity should be broken up like the unity of the Dor Haflogoh.

    #1467822

    The little I know
    Participant

    I do not take issue with the approach to talking during davening as a disruption to the tzibbur, a descreation to the kedushas hamakom, etc. Sadly, the focus on these very real aspects of the problem of talking in shul has not been completely successful in stopping it.

    I propose a different focus (not to eliminate the above mentioned ones). My perception is that the talkers are erring seriously in not davening. One needs to recognize that tefiloh betzibbur is a privilege, that we can have a minyan to beseech the Creator of the world to grant us His blessings. We are invited to this unique gift, to speak directly to Him three times a day. Why would anyone want to waste such a precious opportunity? The issue with the talkers is more than the talking – it is the not davening. If we truly recognized the invaluable gift of tefiloh, we would cherish every minute of it, and not replace it with the foolishness of schmoozing that we can just as easily have at another time and place.

    #1467877

    Avi K
    Participant

    Several shuls were destroyed by this serious aveira (Mishna Berura 124:27). Even learning quietly is prohibited (ibid s”k 17). The Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Khmelnytsky massacres on this and wrote a “misheberach” for “מי ששומר את פיו ולשונו לא לדר בזמן התפילה”. It is also prohibited to talk during keriat haTorah (SA 146:1) and the Haftarah (ibid seif 3).

    #1467876

    laskern
    Participant

    Bravo! The Little I Know, Beautiful. I applaud you. Don’t sell yourself short. What you are saying is gold. The Chidusheh Harim explains the curse to the snake as dust is everywhere, but Hashem said to him here is your food don’t bother me. We praise Hashem that we can praise Him. He does not push us aside.

    #1467840

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The talking phenomena has always fascinated me. Lawyers would never dare walk into Federal Court 15 minutes late and shmuz with their buddies as they walk to their seat. Teachers would never allow students to wander the classroom shmoozing.
    Others wouldn’t think of walking in late to a shiur and shmooz while the rav is giving the shiur.
    Yet many of these same people have no problem walking in late to shul and start greeting people who are already davening. It cuts across the spectrum of yiddishkeit.
    I think part of the problem is that most people do not have a good understanding of what the tfilos mean and why Chazal selected them. Each of the brachos in Shmoneh Esreh has a background and a reason as to why chazal selected it. In their haste to start teaching Gemorah, the yeshivas give the tfilos short shrift.
    I think that people would talk less if they understood why they were in shul

    #1467891

    laskern
    Participant

    The Smak makes a kal vochamer from the Goyim’s behavior in their churches. There is an excuse that we feel at home not like guests.

    #1467900

    laskern
    Participant

    We ask permission before praying by saying Hashem, please open up my lips that my mouth should be able to utter your praises. Because we might not be worthy of it.

    #1468751

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Avi K: I think your quote is slightly off. I think it is “פיו ולשונו לא לדבר בעית התפילה”

    #1468826

    The little I know
    Participant

    lesschumras:

    In contrast to a school, where discipline is imposed and made into a huge part of the curriculum (for another thread), and even the courtroom where there are rules that are enforced by court officers, the shul is a free for all. The expectation is that the person entering the shul is doing so with a level of self discipline that is appropriate for the ongoing conduct of the shul and its tefiloh activities. Unfortunately, the expected level of maturity for this is much less than we might hope for, and we get disappointed by many who use the shul as a social meeting place (which it should be, except before or after davening).

    You also noted correctly that too many do not understand tefilos. It is still quite exceptional for a yeshiva to offer a regular class on tefiloh. For the most part, we count on the command of Lashon Hakodesh that was gained during yeshiva years to understand the translation of much of what we recite. But that does a poor job in helping us understand just what we are saying, and it completely misses our need to be emotionally involved with a heartfelt tefiloh experience when we have zero understanding. Teaching tefiloh is a challenge, as it is not academic or rote. It should be unnecessary to provide worksheets, homework, and tests. Rather we should be sharing the beauty of each tefiloh, how it expresses our praises to HKB”H, how it spells out our needs, and how to include the core of kavanah in each part of the davening. As long as we are preoccupied with the decorum of how and where to stand, etc., we are stuck in the chitzoniyus of the davening. It may be a valuable part of it, but distracts many from the core of it. And when this nucleus of the tefiloh is missing, engaging in davening is a chore that we seek to fulfill to check it off from our task list. In reality, it is nothing of the sort. We should be seeking the chance to daven all day, anticipating the opportunity. Yeshivos cannot do this using their tried and true methods of education. It requires a form of teaching that is emotional, not rote, and is experiential. I can note that I have begun to encounter yeshivos that have allowed academic time for teaching tefiloh, and I laud that baby step of progress. I hope it continues and accelerates into a pattern of frenzy in tefiloh that spreads everywhere. Our children need it desperately.

    #1468852

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Rather we should be sharing the beauty of each tefiloh, how it expresses our praises to HKB”H, how it spells out our needs, and how to include the core of kavanah in each part of the davening.

    Personally, I’ve found Rabbi Heshy Kleinman’s books “Praying with Fire” (volumes 1 and 2) and “Praying with Meaning” very helpful.

    #1468914

    Avi K
    Participant

    Iacisrmma, he speaks not his mouth and tongue. You can see it on a website called Shulsigns. Do a search on “תוספות יום טוב”.

    Little, actually the Mishna Berura says (124:27) that a shul police force should be established. The Kaf HaChaim adds (s”k 37) that the offenders should receive many punishments and be publicly shamed

    #1468925

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a Taz in Shulchon Aruch, Orech Chaim (55, 4) whose view is that whoever talks in shul cannot be counted as part of a minyan.

    #1468954

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rambam’s view Hilchos Daios (6,8) is that by Ben Adam Lamokam, if one does not listen when admonished privately , can be ashamed publicly. The son of the Shlah follows this ruling when it comes to talking in shul.

    #1469033

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    AviK,

    Iacisrmma is correct about the lashon. “Eis” means while, as in while davening is occurring. Zman mean the calendar time, so that would mean the time of day for davening.

    The reference you provided supports Iacisrmma.

    #1469070

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I think people would stop talking in shul if they were given somewhere else to talk.

    #1469244

    Avi K
    Participant

    Nisht, I checked and you are right. I left out a letter. Is this the only nit you two picked or are there more?

    #1469291

    laskern
    Participant

    The Zohar uses the expression whoever speaks in a shul about mundane matters.

    #1469330

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avi K:

    Let’s examine the halachos you cited. If we are in a state of needing to release pressure on someone, as in pent up rage, and we find someone talking in shul, we should be free to empty our wrath on that fellow. Correct? Obviously not. Whatever path we choose to enforce the decorum of the shul, it is about achieving the result of the shul being a place that shines in its kedusha, without the chatter and such that detract from this. So our focus is on the result. The means of how to achieve this are simply suggestions of these various Gedolei Yisroel that were appropriate to their communities and experience. The Mechaber (Beis Yosef) states גוערין בו. If you review the commentaries, there are several ideas proposed, and despite several that repeat or quote from others, there are varying opinions. The bottom line is that one needs to focus on the result, not the process. The public shaming is not a mitzvah of its own. It is simply a means to the achievement of the proper kedusha in the shul environment. If that shaming stuff yields a different result, it loses its “mitzvah” completely. Shul police is a useful idea, and it has been implemented many times in the current era. The yelling and shaming has not accomplished much, and is more likely to drive someone away from davening there or altogether. I would wish that not be the case, but my wish does not change reality.

    I am not someone who favors talking in shul, nor am I ignorant of the halachos. Ultimately, the best outcome is the more people that are truly involved in tefiloh in shul, the better. At this point in time, there is far more to gain with “Praying with Fire” and “Praying with Meaning” than all the admonishment and punishments. Keep your eye on the goal. The terrain changed.

    #1469652

    Avi K
    Participant

    Little, you are correct. Perhaps the shul board should consider fines (if legally enforceable) and denial of honors. I heard of one shul where each section had an official shussher – and the list was posted so that everyone knew. I would add people whose cell phones ring, and even more so those who run out to answer them. I had a thought his morning during davening that holes should be bored in their ears.

    #1469692

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avi K:

    I have also seen the official shusher system. It was barely effective.

    The cell phone issue is not relevant on Shabbos and Yom Tov. It is a huge problem, as the ringing is only a part of the problem. The answering, talking, running out, etc., are all disruptive to others. I choose to not have my phone with me when I go to shul. We have mini-lockers (with charging cables) where we can leave the phones while we daven. Just think how distracting the vibrating phone can be when one is trying to focus on davening.

    Instead of boring holes in ears, how about a dab of super glue on the lips?

    #1469725

    Avi K
    Participant

    Little, I am in favor of the super glue solution.

    #1469734

    laskern
    Participant

    It says תהילת ה ידבר פי ויברך שם קדשו לעולם ועד says the Chasan Sofer, David Hamelech asked Hashem that when people see me davening, they should gain enthusiasm to also daven forever. This might be a solution to encourage others also to daven with fervor.

    #1469748

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    how about a dab of super glue on the lips?

    That’ll help them daven better.

    #1469946

    laskern
    Participant

    The problem with my solution above is that if people are busy talking, they don’t see the others who are davening with fervor.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
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