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Kla Ilan or Indigo is a plant.
Plants are constantly bred to improve qualities. Wheat and rice have much larger yields today than they did 200 years ago because of improved genetive selection. The same is true of apples and even esrogim. The are far better quality today than ever.
Why should Indigo be different?
The colorfastness of this plant is probably a dramatic improvement over what it was in the time of ChaZaL.
The most powerful argument for Murex is that if this is not the true chilazon, then – since the dye is extremely similar to tchelless – Chazzal should have warned us about this fraudulent tchelless. Since they didn’t, it is clearly the real thing.
Simple question. How come the leading Poskim, Gedolim, and Admorim of our time don’t wear it if it is the read deal.
Some names (no order whatsoever) – please feel free to add to them:
Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Elyashiv
Rav Wosner
Rav Aron Leib Shteinman
Chacham Ovadia Yosef
Rav Dovid Feinstein
Rav Reuven Feinstein
Bobover Rebbe (both)
Satmar Rebbe (both)
Gur Rebbe
Belz Rebbe
Viznits Rebbe (both)
Rachmanstrivka Rebbe (both)
Rav Shmuel Aurbach
Rav Yaakov Hillel
Rav Dovid Abuchatzeira
Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg (not on even ONE of his 300 pairs of Tzitzis)
Stolin Rebbe
Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva (all 4)
Lakewood Mashgiach
Rav Shlomo Miller
Rav Gamliel Rabinovitch
Chasidus Chabad
Rav Herschel Shachter
Rav Yisroel Belskey
Rav Yechezkel Roth
Rav Chaim Epstein
Rav Aaron Feldman
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky
Rav Fishel Hershkowitz
Rav Aaron Schecter
Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel
Recently niftar gedolim:
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz
Rav Koppleman
Rav Menashe Klein
Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel
I know, I know….none of them learned the sugya like Mr. Chacham, some blogger on YWN.
Get a grip dude.
First of all a lot of your list is based on misinformation.
tHere are some rabbis on your list who do indeed wear techeiles (not that your point is not valid that the gedolim do not do it but there are many that do wear.) And there are many big names who wear btzineh. On your list, I counted 8 who I know bvadai wear. I know a guy out there who went to the gedolim and asked them why not? HE actually found out that many of them do btzineh. If you want names, fine, but that is not the point.
Now if you do not want to wear techeiles because therabbanim do not wear, then you have a very good taayne. All I am saying is that it can be proven that the murux is the chilazon. And i am willing to argue for that. I am not saying you are mechuyav to wear it.
Wow a long lived thread. I remember posting this on an older thread, the biggest kasha on the snail, and any snail, is the melocho of kosheir. The issur of tying is because for the mishkan they needed to tye nets with which to catch the chilazon. You don’t need a net to catch a snail. There is however, another snail contender, a small blue striped specimen that floats at the surface in large colonies, that would be harvested, theoretically with nets.
I think Rav Elyashiv makes it clear why we don’t wear it in his kovetz teshuvot 1:2 where he gives a few reasons.
Sam4: They say that Rav Elyashiv told Rav Schachter that he would wear Techeiles but if he did that many of his followers who can’t even afford food as it is would spend far too much money on buying Techeiles.
To: Twisted
They didn’t have scuba diving gear in ancient times.
The snails are carried mainly by currents.
Large nets were tied and spread out to sink to the ocean floor weighed down by stones.
Ropes attached to floating twigs are attached to all sides of the net.
In a few days, or even hours, you return and lift up the nets which are populated, by then, with Chilazon.
That’s the way it was done and is still done in primitive places where people eat them.
BTW what do you think the word Chilazon means in Farsi? That’s right – snail.
The Raavia says that Chilazon in Greek is Purfura. What do you think purfura means in Greek? That’s right – snail.
Sam4: They say that Rav Elyashiv told Rav Schachter that he would wear Techeiles but if he did that many of his followers who can’t even afford food as it is would spend far too much money on buying Techeiles.
That makes no sense.
Sam2: I am sorry I don’t understand that story.If you read the tshuvah it doesn’t make sense he would say that in private only.I have a hard time with stories which happen in private,esp when their opnion is stated.
the vilna gaon in his peirush in shulchan aruch, brings down the midrash quoted above and states, lihalachah, that ticheiles/ the chilazon has been hidden from klal yisroel and we cannot get it. cant find it, research it, chance upon it etc. so your arguing on the vilna gaon. he says this is the mitzi’us.
sam4 according to rav Karp mechaber of hilchos shabbos beshabbato and Rav Simcha Kook Shlita Rav Elyashiv said we was just pointing out the possible problems and he himself does not hold that min Kanaf is on two strings. (you can confirm it from them)
And the yam shel shlomo in Yevamos 1 siman 3 and Artzos Hachaim (malbim) OC 9 5 (it is brought down in Mishna Berura) Chazon ISh siman 3 Ois 25 Shu”t Yeshuas Malco sima 1 and the maharsham all clearly hold there is no problem of min canaf
Chacham: I am not arguing on the sugya, I am just saying that from Rav Eliyashivs sefer it is good reasons and the story of Sam2 is hard for me to understand.
John Doe
Rav Herschel Schachter and Rav Yisroel Belsky both wear Techelet
Toi- the biur hagra is just commenting on the rama which says not to make a talis of shatnaiz – so the gra says ayin medrash rabba Vachshav ain lanu ella halavan. I do not see how this means it can not be found . It just means since today we don’t have techailes we cannot use shatnez. It does not say anything about it not coming back….
optimusprime– John Doe had a preconception that no rabbonim wear so he decided to make a list of rabbanim. If he would look into the matter he will find out that at least eight of those rabbonim do wear.
sam4321- I also have a hard time believing such a story.
Chacham writes: “First of all a lot of your list is based on misinformation.
tHere are some rabbis on your list who do indeed wear techeiles (not that your point is not valid that the gedolim do not do it but there are many that do wear.) And there are many big names who wear btzineh. On your list, I counted 8 who I know bvadai wear. I know a guy out there who went to the gedolim and asked them why not? HE actually found out that many of them do btzineh. If you want names, fine, but that is not the point.'”
WHAT??!?!?! Btzinah?!?!?!?!
Let’s take that apart, sha’ll we?
#1- The list is correct and accurate. A later commenter lied and said Rabbi Belky’s name. Perhaps I was incorrect by Rav Herchel Shachter, but that is it.
#2- Many wear bitzonh?!?! What is this a stupid game of hide-and-seek? You saw something that the rest of the word never saw? Are you that bad of a liar? Why would you say sch a thing? Give us the names and we will verify it ourselves. Otherwise you are a blatant liar and can not be trusted (which I am suspected you are by now).
#3- The point IS who wears them. What kind of retarded thing is that to say “If you want names, fine, but that is not the point”????
Sure it is! If you said Rav Elyshiv wear it, and it was verified that in fact it is true, then the masses will start wearing them.
Give us a list of Rabbonim who proudly wear them. Better yet, give us a list of 10 leading Gedolim who wear them.
Until you do, you are a proven shkran.
1. If you will like to fight about the chilazon I am open for debate, but to argue about who does wear and who does not wear is really a waste of time. Go do some investigating yourself. I know someone who went around to many rabbanim and asked them why they do not wear. He may have gotten the gabboim angry, but he managed to put together a list of many of them who wear btzineh.
So let us try Rabbi Belsky. You claim he does not. I claim he does. So pick up the phone and call his son to find out. It is not very hard to do. But to decide everyone does not based on no information will make you what people call a proven shakran.
2. Why would someone wear btzineh? very poshut. Look in Tshuvos Vehanhagos of Reb Moshe Shternboch who says there may be a problem Lo sisgodido. I don’t know why they wear btzineh, but you can go ask them. Do some research yourself. Did you look into every gadol you wrote does not wear?
3. I am not trying to prove to the world that you must wear this on your tzitzis. I AM trying to prove that this is the chilazon. So if you have any taanos on whether this is the chilazon then I am open for argument.
I forgot to mention, Rav Belsky also said that it is obvious to him that the Halacha follows Tosafos, the Rosh and the majority of Rishonim regarding the number of strings. Therefore, he said that if you only wear one Techeiles string on each corner instead of two, you have accomplished nothing.
“The Gemara in Shabbos (75a) says that according to Rabbi Yehuda, one who extracts the dye from the chilazon on shabbos is chayev for Dosh. Now the minimum shiur to be chayev for Dosh is a Grogeres. The amount of dye taken from a Murex Trunculus is less than a Grogeres.”
I will argue that high value items can have smaller measures for which one in liable on Shabbos.
The best that I can recall, different fluids have different measures for which one is liable for carrying.
For most items that are threshed, the size of a fig is needed to have value. High value techeiles dye should have a much smaller critical mass.
Ok I will try to answer next off shabbos which is in four weeks.
Reply to:”The Gemara in Shabbos (75a) says that according to Rabbi Yehuda, one who extracts the dye from the chilazon on shabbos is chayev for Dosh. Now the minimum shiur to be chayev for Dosh is a Grogeres. The amount of dye taken from a Murex Trunculus is less than a Grogeres.”
Acc> to the Raavad it’s talui in the chashivus not the volume which makes disha of a chilazon a chiyuv chatos.
The Rabam shtims with the shita of Rabeinu Avrohom ben HaRambam that petzia is the sepraration of the chilazon from the shell thus involving a kigrogeres in volume as well.
John Doe: You claimed that Rav Herschel Schachter, probably the biggest Techeilis proponent now and someone who has published the obligation to wear it in his Seforim, doesn’t wear the Techeilis we have and then you had the gall to call someone else a Shakran? I’m impressed. That took guts.
There are many issues with the murex trunculus, some of which were listed above, as well as the fact that long after the Jews “lost” the secret, the Phoenicians were still making purple dye from it just a few miles away. I knew Rav Shachter did, but Rabbi Belsky used to not. I will try to get clarity on this.
I am working through a contact to find out about Rabbi Belsky.
Every good poseik has personal chumros he keeps for himself but does not impose on others. The question if this is one of those chumros or not.
This issue has also become highly politicized, with techeiles being viewed as a mizrachi mitzvah. So it could be, if Rabbi Belsky does this, that his silence is simply so as not to be attacked by the anti-zionists. Thus the need to clarify.
I was told by someone who wants to remain anonymous that Rabbi Belsky doesn’t wear it during the week when people would see, but he does wear it on shabbos underneath his frock, and this is a personal chumra. He hasn’t discussed it publicly because he doesn’t want to impose it on others. This is also why he only wears it on shabbos, underneath his frock. I was also told his own close talmidim do not wear it. As I am just an anonymous cr poster and not a voice of authority, ask your own LOR.
John Doe said:
Simple question. How come the leading Poskim, Gedolim, and Admorim of our time don’t wear it if it is the read deal.
Some names (no order whatsoever) – please feel free to add to them:
Rav Chaim Kanievsky (He wrote in a letter that he’s somaich on his shver and Rebeim for this.)
Rav Elyashiv (He almost always paskins relies on what other people tell him for the “metzius”‘ as he said if he would have to research all the facts himself he wouldn’t be able to pasken at all. He wrote a teshuva (???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ?) on the question posed by Harav Feival Cohen asking if the fact that ?????? say that something is ????, disregarding the actual “rayayos”, is a good reason to wear.
??? ????”? responded that being this is the 3rd conclusion they have no ??????. His ????? were asked about what this third ???? was (Rav Herzog never actually reached any conclusions; he toyed with the janthina however concluded it wasn’t it, because among other things it couldn’t produce dye. See ????? ?????? ????? ??’ ?????) the response was Dr. Saul Kaplan from Rechovot, an american “hippy” who claims Rabbi Nach-man helped him produce a blue dye from the janthina however refuses to release his process lest he lose his patent.)
Rav Wosner (rumors he weares privtely wears ??”?)
Rav Aron Leib Shteinman (not a poseik)
Chacham Ovadia Yosef
Rav Dovid Feinstein (he said you need a mesora, however when asked if he could be ?????, he asked a talmid who was already ????? he told him it wasn’t worthwhile based on Rav Elyashiv.)
Rav Reuven Feinstein (said he doesn’t know the topic.)
Bobover Rebbe (both)
Satmar Rebbe (both)
Gur Rebbe
Belz Rebbe
Viznits Rebbe (both)
Rachmanstrivka Rebbe (both)
Rav Shmuel Aurbach (acc. to a tamid he wers one privately)
Rav Yaakov Hillel (said Arizal says can’t have it today)
Rav Dovid Abuchatzeira
Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg (not on even ONE of his 300 pairs of Tzitzis)(dose wears one acc. to Rav Nisson Kaplan’s techeles shiur)
Stolin Rebbe
Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva (all 4) (Rav Makiel said he doesn’t wear because his father didn’t but volunteered that it’s not a good reason because he didn’t have the murex. When asked again he said doesn’t know the inyanim)
Lakewood Mashgiach (says we need a mesora)
Rav Shlomo Miller (wrote a teshuva: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/miller.pdf
see the response by ????? ????? ?? ???’ ????: http://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/tavger_miller_2.pdf )
Rav Gamliel Rabinovitch (owns a pair)
Chasidus Chabad
Rav Herschel Shachter (wrote there’s a chiyuv to wear in his sefer ???? ????)
Rav Yisroel Belskey (He wears and tells whoever is able to to go through the sugia themself)
Rav Yechezkel Roth (owns a pair hearsay)
Rav Chaim Epstein (says he doesn’t do wht his father didn’t. ??? It doesn’t make sense & was probably just to push the guy away)
Rav Aaron Feldman
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky (Says he doesn’t kow the topic)
Rav Fishel Hershkowitz
Rav Aaron Schecter (Says he heard the proof’s strong but we must have a psak from ????”? ?????? for such a great change)
Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel (Wears ?????? as a ?????, doesn’t like when you ask him so ask people slose to him)
Recently niftar gedolim:
Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz (not a posek
Rav Koppleman same
Rav Menashe Klein
Rav Nosson Tzvi Finkel dito
Zvei dinim, I asked a talmid of Rabbi Belsky. My info is different from your info.
To the OP. Yes
From what I see on the streets (the holy streets of EY) the common techeles is closer to turquoise, with a hint of a greenish tint, the Radziner is darker and bluer, but both are lighter than the my example of kala ilan, my well washed work overalls. Oi wheres the edit button?!!
Murex trunculus as a chumra would be below wool tzitzis, Chalav yisroel, pas yisroel, yoshon, zman mogen avraham for krias shema, etc. Those have reliable psakim to back them up. There are serious questions on this, as Rav Shmuel miller pointed out. And how can the Jews have lost a process that their neighbors next door were still using?
Finally, the latest archaeological evidence shows a darker techeiles color than what is being use.
The dye from murex trunculus changes color depending on exposure to sun. It can have many shades.
While I am by no means an expert on the subject, I have been researching Techeiles for about 10 years now.
I have come up with 2 major reasons why a significant segment of our population do not hold of Techeiles:
1) There is a Tosefta in the back of Masechet Menachos that seems to imply that anything other than Techeiles or Lavan on the Tzitzit pasuls the entire Tzitzis/Beged. In other words anything on the Tzitzis which is not true Techeiles would be (in my humble understanding) the same as placing Klai Ilan (which we know from Chazal as forbidden). So many may be Chosesh for this stringency.
2) Something that resurfaces after a significant Hefsek in time is considered suspect since the mesorah that deals with the issue was not used/applied in the intervening time. It’s almost a similar issue with eating turkey. Some families do eat turkey and some families do not. Why? Those families that do not eat turkey may simply have had no mesora from earlier generations to compare the simanim of kosher birds to the turkey, and apply it.
I too have observed that those who wear Techeiles seem to be more Mizrachi/Eretz Yisroel oriened whereas those that do not are Agudas Yisroel oriented.
What is also interesting to note is that Klai Ilan is mostly the vegetable dye called Indigo or 2,2′-Bis(2,3-dihydro-3-oxoindolyliden). The extract from the gastropod mollusk called Murex Trunculus is a dye (which many call Techeiles) is actually a compound containing 6,6-dibromoindigo, somewhat similar to Tyrian Purple.
RT: the halacha is ????? can be from any color (??”? ??”? ??’ ? ???”? ??). Even according to the Rishonim who hold it must be the color of the beged it’s only for the strings that would have been white when there was techeles ( ???? ??? ? ?? ????)
Hi zvei dinim. Thanks for your response. However, it’s not so clear.
The Mechaber (Shulchan Aruch, Siman Tet, Saif Heh) seems to indicate the validity of colored Tzitzis on a Tallis with a the same said color, but the Rama is concerned:
???: ????????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????, ?? ?????? ??????, ???? ?????
and the ???? ????? ???? ? ?”? ?? rules:
?? ?????? ?????? – ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????:
The Mishna Brura is stating that to be Yotzei all the opinions … Could he be hinting to that Tosefta which disqualifies any dye, save for Lavan and true Techeiles?
I don’t know …. Tzarich Iyun.
RT that’s why I quoted the Chazon Ish that the din is only refering to the strings that are not in place of tcheiles.
RT murex dye is dibromoindigo before it is exposed to sunlight or boiled. Regardless, blue murex dye is undistinguishable from indigo.
Jothar you say there are serious questions on the murex.
Bring them on!
You say “how can the Jews have lost a process that their neighbors next door were still using?” see Codex Justinianus see 4:40:1 in which the Roman empire banned purpura dye to laymen at the same period in which tcheiles was lost to the jews (bet. Rabanan Savorai and early Geonim).
You say “the latest archaeological evidence shows a darker techeiles color than what is being use” see Radvaz(??? ??”?)that the strength of the dye isn’t ????. Besides, what dose one peice of cloth found whith blue murex dye have to do with the halachic requirements of tcheiles?
You say “The dye from murex trunculus changes color depending on exposure to sun. It can have many shades.” True as the Tosfos Hashalem (?’ ???? ?”? ????? ????) brings a midrash that says that different dyes are made from the chilazon, however chazal say the color of tcheiles is indistinguishable from kala ilan, thus we know it’s exact color. The shade however is not ???? as I wrote above.
The Heilegieh Rav Mutzafi wrote that it is mamish a lack of derech eretz to wear tcheiles bazman hazeh because the gdolim don’t wear it.
Patur aval assur- you said ” No one would use Murex Trunculus as a forgery seeing that it is just as expensive as the actual Techeiles.
Just for the record, Rav Shlomo Miller holds that the Murex Trunculus is in fact Kala Ilan. “”
Why don’t you go ask rabbi miller why someone would use an expensive forgery?
Murex= kla ilan? the aruch is pretty clear otherwise.
patur– ”The Gemara in Shabbos (75a) says that according to Rabbi Yehuda, one who extracts the dye from the chilazon on shabbos is chayev for Dosh. Now the minimum shiur to be chayev for Dosh is a Grogeres. The amount of dye taken from a Murex Trunculus is less than a Grogeres.”
Now do me a favor, before you make it appear so simple, look into it. There is a machlokes rambam and raavad if dash needs the shiur grogros( shabbos 8:7 in yad) but if you would look in the kesef mishnah you would see that they are only arguing by oichel and everything else they agree on that even less than a grogros is chayav. V`ayin od bchasam sofer shabos 75a dh hatzad that has a pshitus there has less than a grogros in each chilazon.
zvei dinim- Why would you have to come unto a chazon ish? as far as ia m cocerned there is a mefurosh gemara azoi that says vlo yehai ela lavan.
Patur– “It is also clear from the afforementioned Gemara in Shabbos that the dye of the chilazon is better when the chilazon is alive, and therefore people would try not to kill it when extracting the dye. The Murex Trunculus dye starts deteriorating several hours after its death which would make completely unnecessary to try to keep it alive.”
Very simple. Look in shabbos 75a once again. ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? which means that you are dyeing it after it is already dead.
Patur—- ”’ The Gemara in Menachos (44a) describes the Chilazon:
1) It looks like the ocean
2) It’s form resembles a fish
3) It comes up once in 70 years
4) With its blood we dye the Techeiles
5) Therefore it is expensive
Let’s analyze the Murex Trunculus:
1) It does not look like the ocean
2) It does not resemble a fish
3) It does not come up once in 70 years(or have any known cycle of abundance)
4) The secretion used from the Murex Trunculus is no its blood
5)It is expensive, however Rashi explains that the statement of “Therefore it is expensive” refers back to the fact that it only comes up once in 70 years. The Murex Trunculus is expensive because you can only get around four drops of die per snail.
It seems that the Murex Trunculus is 0/5(according to the pashut pshat in the gemara. Obviously the Murex Trunculus proponents have a way to read each one of the criteria).”’
1.- What does look like the ocean mean to you? The Rambam is pretty clear it means the color. Now if you research this you will find out that in the water and the first few hours a after it comes out of the water, the shell is the color of the area it is taken from either blue or green.
2.Why not? have you ever seen a good picture of it? how about a picture of any other snail? which one looks like a fish and which one does not?
3. See the radvaz in chelek 2 in 685 that says nignaz means it stops coming up.
4. You were mechavein to tosfos in shabbos 75a dh ki. I will quote it for you ????? ?? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??????
5.Yet at the same time we know for a fact that it was caught using nets (see shabbos 74b)
Is there a rav Hamasmich for the CR?
Patur- Thank you for responding. I will answer your first point now and will bezras hashem get to your other points a little later.
1- About the similarity between kla ilan. All I was saying that according to Rabbi Miller, whom you quoted to hold that the Murex is Kla ilan, than you cannot say that they only made a gezeirah on the cheap stuff being that the murex is also kla ilan. All I was pointing out that you were soiser yourself.
But regarding your sevara that they would not make a gezeira on expensive stuff, it is very not mistaber. The gemara in menachos tells us of a test to tell the distinction between kla ilan and the real techeiles. The gemara tells of us two ways of doing the test. One way if the color of the dye were to fade than it was kla ilan and if it stayed the same color it was techeiles. Than Rav Ada had an alternative way of testing it that if the color improves than it is techeiles and if it stayes the same color than it is kla ilan. On 43a the gemara recounts how Mar Mashchi brought techeiles to Rav Achai and Rav Achai tested it and it passed the first test but failed the second test. The Rabanan thought to pasul it. Rav Achai asked How could it be that it is not techeiles or kla ilan rather you must say that the tests are meant to be together. Ayin shum vdoik.
What we see from that gemara that they knew that there was no other dye that is the same color as techeiles except kla ilan. And today we know (based on the ???? ????? ????? of that time) that this snail was rather common in those times and was used to dye blue. So being that the chachamim were not choshesh for it, obviously anything that is identical to kla ilan and sticks strongly, and was around in the times of the gemara is clearly techeiles.
And please do not bring up your old argument that this is the same chemicals as kla ilan, because we have already discussed that it is not the same strong so obviously a test can differentiate.
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