Teshuva for Retzicha

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  • #593002

    TheChevra
    Member

    How can someone do teshuva for murder?

    #802068

    myfriend
    Member

    The same way one does teshuva for avodah zora or mishkav zochor.

    #802069

    bezalel
    Participant

    Or turning on a light on shabos.

    #802070

    Homeowner
    Member

    TheChevra, just on the slight chance this question is not posted for purely academic reasons, if you have any information regarding the commission of a crime by you or anyone else, posting it on the internet is extremely ill-advised.

    There’s a reason police tell you, “You have the right to remain silent.”

    #802071

    WIY
    Member

    The Rambam says you can do Teshuvah on anything however If a Chillul Hashem is involved it will require Missah to be completely mechaper.

    However the Rambam and Shaarei Teshuva as well as other sources (I believe its a Gemara) That if one sins and says Echta Veashuv – I will do Teshuvah afterwards his Teshuvah is not accepted.

    Your question wasnt can someone do Teshuvah on murder but “how can someone.” As though it happened…Im trying very hard not to read too much into this…

    Either way if you want to know how to do Teshuvah on such an Aveira you should learn through the Rambams Hilchos Teshuvah which isnt too long and the sefer Shaarei Teshuvah by Rabbeinu Yonah.

    #802072

    d a
    Member

    Homeowner, did you hear about the guy who got a speeding ticket? He placed a video of himself speeding on the internet. And the police ticketed him! I am not making this up! It was on a news site (I think YW)

    #802073

    Does retzicha only include intentional murder? My very frum, extremely nice neighbor accidentally hit someone while driving and killed him. Maybe something similar happened to TheChevra.

    #802074

    TheChevra
    Member

    Good points Homeowner and d a. I’m not going to post any video on the internet.

    Now back to our original question: *How* is the teshuva done?

    #802075

    yes-its-me
    Participant

    see sharei teshuva end of hilchos teshuva on teshuva on retzicha [i’m almost sure its there] thre is also a teshuva in noda biyehuda on the issue. details are not fit for this forum or anyother blog

    #802076

    RSRH
    Member

    Please distinguish between teshuva and kapara. Kapara is what is required to restore the Torah-governed balance of things that was upset by a wrong act (kapara, from kaf, kipa – to cover over something). To get a kapara for killing someone may be extremely difficult and depending on the circumstances, the kapara may not occur until the killer himself dies.

    Teshuva is a different story. The killer can better himself and remedy his own personal misconduct by regretting his wrong act, resolving to abstain from it in the future, and actually mending his ways when a similar situation presents itself in the future.

    #802077

    theprof1
    Participant

    Retzicha is not just “any” aveirah. You can’t just read a sefer and say ok i’m doing teshuvah. I suggest to go to not just a local orthodox rabbi but rather to an accepted godol such as a rosh yeshiva, mashgiach, chasidish rebbe. and go to the top in each category. Like Rav Moshe Wolfson or Rav Matisyahu Solomon. However if you’re just interested as an intellectual exercise, then you can see what various seforim say about it.

    #802078

    TheChevra
    Member

    RSRH: Unless you are saying kapara is not possible, how is kapara achieved? How will the person dying of old age achieve kapara at that point?

    #802079

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Does retzicha only include intentional murder?

    Retzicha refers strictly to unlawful murder. Putting someone to death is harigah, not retzicha.

    If it was purely an accident, then I’d say no — he is a “horeg” but not a “rotzeach.” If he was a shogeg (i.e. at least partially negligent), then I’d say yes (the Torah uses the term for someone who must flee to one of the Arei Miklat).

    The Wolf

    #802080

    chesedname
    Participant

    if done on purpose, there is no mechilla, kapara, or coming out of gehenim

    #802082

    myfriend
    Member

    chesedname:

    The Rambam says you can do Teshuvah on anything.

    #802083

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Kayin did teshuva.

    #802084

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Rambam says you can do Teshuvah on anything.

    Does the Rambam address Acher?

    The Wolf

    #802085

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    if done on purpose, there is no mechilla, kapara, or coming out of gehenim

    I’d like to know your source on that.

    The Wolf

    #802086

    i dont know about the Rambam but Rabbi Miller, tz’l, said acher absolutely could do Tshuva, only he would not be aided in this. the bas kol was a test just like the Nevuah to Yecheschiel that he would shortly die and Tshuvah wouldnt help

    #802087

    Homeowner
    Member

    d a (I see why you use lower case letters as they surely do not stand for “district attorney.”)

    No, I didn’t hear that story nor would I care. A ticket in New York requires the officer to personally observe the commission of the offense charged.

    Personally, I think this thread is a big put-on.

    #802088

    squeak
    Participant

    Homeowner, good point!

    d a – you are hereby charged with changing your screen name to something that does not imply you are a district attorney! This is a very serious offense. Take this friendly advice or you get in trouble.

    #802089

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    but Rabbi Miller, tz’l, said acher absolutely could do Tshuva, only he would not be aided in this. the bas kol was a test

    Did Acher know it was a test? If HKBH told you something, would you not take Him at face value? Avraham Avinu did — to the point where he was ready to slaughter his son.

    The Wolf

    #802090

    apushatayid
    Participant

    A better question is, how to do teshuva for all the lashon hara, read and written on YWN.

    #802091

    d a
    Member

    d a:

    the d stands for EDITED and the a stands for EDITED

    #802092

    i dont know wolf

    why dont you study the sugya wolf and learn what the meforshim say or ask a Talmid Chchom to explain to answer your speculations. i am not a Talmid Chochom.

    if Rabbi Miller, tz’l said it was a test it was a test. he didnt make things up out of thin air. why dont you think about it and see if you can come up with a possible explanation

    #802093

    apushatayid
    Participant

    R’ Meir obviously disagreed with Acher because he never gave up trying to be (for lack of a better word) mekarev him.

    #802095

    R Shmuel
    Member

    chesedname

    FALSE! FALSE! FALSE! – There is absolutely NO aveirah in the world that one cannot do teshuva on! Ask any competant Rov, (or any Breslover chosid as they are all well versed in this topic.)

    #802096

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    he didnt make things up out of thin air.

    I never said he did. Please don’t imply that that is what I meant.

    The Wolf

    #802097

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is absolutely NO aveirah in the world that one cannot do teshuva on!

    Well, there is the sin of my being alive. 🙁

    The Wolf

    #802098

    WIY
    Member

    Wolf

    Rabbi Shafier from the Shmuz discusses it in his Hilchoos Teshuvah boot camp 3 shiur series. Worth a listen!

    #802099

    chesedname
    Participant

    R Shmuel

    not true murder, aishesh ish, etc

    there are a small amount where u stay in gehenim

    #802100

    TheChevra
    Member

    Mother in Israel: C’V. I don’t know anyone this situation would be applicable to. It is a halachic discussion.

    #802102

    myfriend
    Member

    chesedname,

    What is your source for your assertion?

    #802103

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    not true murder, aishesh ish, etc

    there are a small amount where u stay in gehenim

    Still waiting to see a source (and, since you’re stating there’s more than one) a list of which sins are covered.

    The Wolf

    #802104

    R Shmuel
    Member

    chesedname

    What you are saying is WRONG. Even on the most chomer aveiros including murder, eishes ish, etc. one can do complete teshuva.

    Many people somehow have a wrong hashkafa on this matter.

    #802105

    R Shmuel
    Member

    Wolf

    I am not sure what you mean – please explain

    #802106

    chesedname
    Participant

    i’m aware of teh rambam, this wouldn’t be the first time i saw a machlakos.

    see

    gemarah rosh hashanah 17a

    sanhedrin 99a

    bava metzia 58b

    shaarei teshuvah, whole chapter, title is , the sins that ppl won’t come out of gehenim

    chofetz chaim chovat hashemirah on ribis where he says they won’t have techias hamesim.

    #802107

    WIY
    Member

    What you are saying is WRONG. Even on the most chomer aveiros including murder, eishes ish, etc. one can do complete teshuva.

    Many people somehow have a wrong hashkafa on this matter.

    Incorrect. Once you brought a Mamzer into the world thres no undoing that. Although there may be some way to do Teshuvah Im not sure theres a 100% Teshuvah for making a Mamzer.

    #802108

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I am not sure what you mean – please explain

    I mean that if chesedname is going to make such an assertion, I would like to know the source and the complete list of sins for which there is no teshuva.

    The Wolf

    #802109

    Homeowner
    Member

    R Shmuel, how does one do teshuva for Chilul Hashem? I ask because although one could theoretically ask the Almighty for mechila, many hold that this is also a sin against the entire B’nai Yisroel since all are harmed. How could one ask mechila from the entire B’nai Yisroel?

    #802110

    myfriend
    Member

    chesedname: Those sources are talking if the person didn’t do teshuva; not if they did.

    #802111

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The same way one would go about asking for mechila from “modern orthodox jews” or “everyone in lakewood” or other large groups of people frequently disparaged on YWN.

    #802112

    oomis
    Participant

    Teshuva for murder is completed only with the death of the posheya. Murder and killing someone are not necessarily the same thing.

    #802113

    apushatayid
    Participant

    There is teshuva and there is a kappara. A person does teshuva, hashem provides the kappara.

    #802116

    eclipse
    Member

    kol hamalbin es pnei chaveiro b’rabim ki’eeloo horgo. i was once so humiliated i actually felt the color draining from my face.

    #802118

    Obaminator
    Member

    Anyone can do teshuva for any aveira. Even Levi Aron can do teshuva. There is no such thing as an aveira you can’t do teshuva for.

    #802120

    Hacham
    Member

    How do you know if someone did teshuva for a public aveira?

    #802121

    Health
    Participant

    “Even Levi Aron can do teshuva.”

    If he’s insane (Shoita), he doesn’t have to.

    #802122

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health” If someone is insane they cannot be held responsible in Beis Din. Only Hakadosh Baruch Hu knows how in control they were of their mental faculties and how much, if any, Teshuvah needs to eb done.

    #802123

    I would imagine that in oreer for Teshuva to be reached, they must get forgiveness from those the murder affected like parents, spouce, kids etc…not sure if that is possible

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