Teshuva for Retzicha

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  • #802124

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    There are some common sense “Tikunim” that one can do,

    Like work for Hatzolah, get involved in Kiruv,

    Help real poor people financially. Also support true Torah study,

    especially Tikonos shel Beis Raban. Daven for people who are child barren.

    #802125

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Hacham, we don’t know – and that’s why Beis Din kills the murderer no matter how Frum he becomes.

    There are stories of Tzaddikim who gave people a Teshuva for killing (somewhat Beshogeg, like beating someone). It consisted of helping out the family forever afterward and some other stuff. It’s one of those things that a Gadol has to be consulted with for each time separately.

    #802126

    Hacham
    Member

    Mike: The victim is the deceased and the mechilla would need to come from him, not family. Perhaps he needs to go to the kever and ask mechilla, but teshuva is always available in Judaism.

    #802127

    mommamia22
    Participant

    I never understood that concept. How can we ask forgiveness of someone who is no longer in this world? How can a deceased person forgive a living one? It never made sense to me. The minhag of asking forgiveness at the kevura seems like an exercise in futility.

    #802128

    Hacham
    Member

    momma: Not much different than if you wronged someone in a lesser way (i.e. you punched him in the face) and he later passed away before you asked for forgiveness.

    #802129

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Which part doesn’t make sense? Obviously, it is better to apologize while the person is alive, but if you couldn’t you do what you can.

    #1514397

    slominer
    Participant

    When the Sanhedrin was in power, if someone intentionally killed someone but there was no advance warning to him, how did Beis Din punish him?

    #1514410

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Retzicha can R”l be more commonplace than one would think. Vehicular manslaughter has happened in our communities by members of our communities. Often it’s unclear who was at fault. Nevertheless the driver caused someone to be killed.
    One method of teshuva may be to support organizations such as C.R.I.B., A-Time or Bonei Olam who help bring new neshamos into this world.

    #1514406

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When the Sanhedrin was in power, if someone intentionally killed someone but there was no advance warning to him, how did Beis Din punish him?

    I’m certain that someone will pop up and say something along the lines of “machnisim oso l’kippah.” But I’ve always wondered about the parameters of how such a thing was carried out.

    First of all, IIRC correctly, when discussed in the Gemara, it was not in the context of using it to punish people who could not, for technical reasons, be executed by the courts, but rather as a punishment for recidivist sinners — people who would commit the same (malkus-level) sins over and over again. But I don’t think there is discussion of using it for one-time cases where, for absence of the required criteria, a standard capital punishment could not be carried out.

    For example, there is the case of Shimon ben Shetach, who saw a man chase another man into an alley while holding a knife. When he finally arrived there, he saw the persued laying on the ground bleeding from a knife wound and the other man standing over him holding the bloody knife.

    There was pretty much no doubt that the man had committed the murder. And yet, SbS was pained over the matter that he could not bring the murderer to justice since he alone witnessed it (and presumably did not issue a warning beforehand as well). Ultimately, the matter was handled by the True Judge, who caused the murder to die from (IIRC) a snake bite.

    But the point is this: if machnisim oso l’kippah was an option, by would SbS have been so pained? The obvious answer is that it was not an option and that, absent the Divine intervention that ultimately happened, the man would have gotten away with the deed.

    The Wolf

    #1514476

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    HealthParticipant
    “Even Levi Aron can do teshuva.”

    If he’s insane (Shoita), he doesn’t have to.
    ————————————
    Since there were no witnesses to the crime he allegedly committed, are we allowed to believe the loshon hora about what he allegedly? Im only using the word alleged because min hatorah he needed hasrah snd no one actuallu saw him kill and his own admittance doesnt count min hatorah.

    #1514528

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“But the point is this: if machnisim oso l’kippah was an option, by would SbS have been so pained? The obvious answer is that it was not an option and that, absent the Divine intervention that ultimately happened, the man would have gotten away with the deed”

    Your mistake is machnisim oso l’kippah is Divine intervention, not something punisable by Jews, such as Bais Din!
    That case was exactly a case where they could have machnisim oso l’kippah.

    #1514529

    Health
    Participant

    T2-2T -” his own admittance doesnt count min hatorah.”

    Only to punish him, but you could believe him!

    #1514537

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Your mistake is machnisim oso l’kippah is Divine intervention, not something punisable by Jews, such as Bais Din!

    No. Either you misunderstood me, or (more likely) I was unclear.

    My point was that machnisin oso l’kippah was not used simply as a way to get around the technicalities of a proper execution being illegal under the circumstances, since, if it were an option, Shimon ben Shetach would not have been so pained about the murderer potentially getting away.

    The Wolf

    #1514555

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rabbi Akiva Eiger has a teshuva about vehicular homicide (a wagon and horses) where there were two victims:

    שו”ת רבי עקיבא איגר מהדורא תניינא סימן ג

    נ”ד דהאיש ההוא גורם גדול, ואפשר דלענין גלות היה פטור ג”כ מדין שהוא קרוב למזיד להריץ הסוסים טעונים במשא ובלילה, ואדם מועד לעולם בדבר שקרוב לפשיעה, דהיינו כעין אבידה, כמ”ש תוס’ ב”ב (דף צ”ג ד”ה חייב) ואם היו משאות של אחרים, וע”י נפילת העגלה היו נפסדים, אף עם היה שומר חנם, קרוב הדבר בעיני שהוא חייב לשלם מדין מזיק דהוי קרוב לאבידה דודאי צריך ליזהר ולחוש שמא תפול העגלה ע”י שמירץ הסוסים בלילה, ופוק חזי מה שהחמיר המהר”ם לובלין בתשובה (סי’ מ”ג ומ”ד) בענינים שלא לדונו לגרמא, כמו בענין שלפנינו, לזה לדעתי הקלושה, ראשית התשובה יהיה אחרי שנהרגו בנו ומשרתו הנער ולא עשו פירות בעולם, הוא יקים זרע להם, דהיינו שעבור בנו הנהרג יחשוב באם היה זוכה להכניסו לחופה כמה היה מוציא עליו נדן ומלבושים ושארי ההוצאות, ויפריש כפי הסך ההוא שיהיה לקרן קיימת לעולמי עולמים, ומהרווחים יוחזק בן עני לגדלו וללמדו תורה וגמרא עד שיהיה בן ט”ו שנים שיוכל לשלחו ללמוד בישיבה ואח”כ יוחזק מהרווחים תלמיד אחר, וכן לעולם, והתלמידים ההם יקראו על שם בן הנהרג שהוא מחזיקם, ואם ישאו להם נשים ויולידו בנים, הבן הבכור יקרא בשם הנהרג, ועבור הנער המשרת יקבל האיש על עצמו ליתן כל ימי חייו מידי שנה בשנה כ”ה ר”ט ליתן מזה שכר לימוד לבני עניים בשנה הראשונה ישלם לעשרה מלמדים עניים שילמדו יום יום שיעור לתועלת נשמת ההרוגים, ויאמרו נוסח התפילה וקדיש דרבנן, גם יפרוש סך מה שמהרווחים ישולם לאיזה לומדים בכל יום היא”צ שיעור משניות, ולהתפלל עליהם ולומר קדיש דרבנן. כל ימי חיי האיש ההוא, ישלח ביום היא”צ שלהם עשרה אנשים על קברם לבקש עבורו מהם מחילה:

    ובענין סיגופים, אחרי שכתב מעכ”ת נ”י שהאיש ההוא סמוך לימי הזקנה, לזה ראוי להקל עליו, ולזה במשך ג’ שנים יתענה ב’ וה’ וער”ח ועשי”ת ולהשלים התעניתים האלו, ואחרי ג’ שנים יתענה בימים אלו הנ”ל עד אחר חצי היום, ואם הוא בדרך ורואה שקשה עליו התענית יפדה התענית בעד ערך ג’ פעמים ח”י גדולים שיתן לעניים, וכל ימיו לא ילך לסעודת נישואין [זולת בסעודת צאצאיו או שהוא שושבין]. וכל לילה קודם שהולך לישן יתודה בלב נשבר ובבכיות גדולות ולבקש מחילה וכפרה מהשם יתברך, יקבל ד’ תפילותיו וצדקותיו ותעניתיו ברחמים ויכפר לו כפרה גמורה, ונפשות ההרוגים יתפייסו, ויליצו טוב בעדו, כן נראה לענ”ד, ידידו דו”ש הק’ עקיבא גינז מא”ש.

    The din of kippa was for someone who deliberately murdered without witnesses or was a three-time loser on chiuvei karret (Sanhedrin 81b).

    #1514914

    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – “if it were an option, Shimon ben Shetach would not have been so pained about the murderer potentially getting away.”

    Wrong! He was pained because there was No option of punishment by Bais Din!
    The punishment of Kipa is from Heaven!

    #1514936

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I think he might be asking this question because of “kol hamalbin pnei chavero barabim keilu shofech damim”

    #1514969

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    May 1, 2018 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm#1514529REPLY
    HealthParticipant
    T2-2T -” his own admittance doesnt count min hatorah.”

    Only to punish him, but you could believe him.
    ————————-
    If אן אדם מסים עצמו רשע. Then how can one believe his/her story?

    #1515093

    Health
    Participant

    T2-2T -“If אן אדם מסים עצמו רשע. Then how can one believe his/her story?”

    I wasn’t exact with my statement. You’re allowed to be Choset him!
    That’s why you could put the murderer w/o Eidim into the Kipa.
    It’s not a Hefker Velt, even when it’s Not PC!

    #1515227

    slominer
    Participant

    WolfishMusings: According to your understanding (as explained above), anyone could easily decide to kill someone else, for whatever reason, and always get away with it by simply doing it before he is warned against it. Assuming it is a one-shot deal and he is not a repeat offender. He could even do it in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses. And Beis Din will be powerless to punish him after the fact. Any rasha could realize this and decide to get away with premeditated murder (other than what he’ll face after 120.)

    #1516793

    slominer
    Participant

    WM, are you around for some insight?

    #1517526

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rivash 251 and Beis Yosef DH v’Nir’eh: Beis Din can punish according to the needs of the time, even without proper testimony. However, we are more apt to punish when there is greater testimony. We would cause a murderer to die (by locking him in a cell – Sanhedrin 81b) when there was not sufficient testimony against him. Some say that this is when the witnesses did not see each other, or there was no warning, or the witnesses disagreed about minor details. No one says that we do so based on one witness or women or Pesulim.

    #1519888

    slominer
    Participant

    WM, was hoping you’d clarify.

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