The Casualties of Yiddish in Litvishe Chadorim

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  • #1361913

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are 600,000 jews in France and another 100,000 in Quebec and another 50,000 in belgium. gtranted not all speak french, but probably most of them do. There are not as many Chassidic jews (Sephardic frum jews speak Hebrew, not yiddish)

    #1361922

    Avi K
    Participant

    Por, so speak to them in Hebrew. If you really want them to be different (Pidgin German is close to German and I’m told very close to Swiss-German) speak to them in Aramaic.

    #1361924

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are 450k Jews in France (including those speaking languages other than French) and 50k in Quebec (including Yiddish speaking ones.) There are more Yiddish speaking Jews.

    #1362323

    Wtp ur question abt how the bt lrn? They come to our schools but there is something called Ben Chumash L’mikra by rabbi Levi Goldstein and it is on all the parshiod is simple easy and clear with drawings for young kids it helps them learn the Chumash on the right is the posuk next column is the teitch in Yiddish and all the way on the left is a shortened translation in English
    Look it up it’s very useful
    Also for sichois there is a ‏לקותי שיחות Dictionary with all the words with all the words in Yiddish then in the middle is the translation in Hebrew and then is the translation into English

    #1362328

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yiddish is a language with few words.

    #1362421

    What do u mean few words ? Cuz it’s adopted from German Hebrew Russian and polish ?

    #1362447

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Think of all the time wasted (aka bitul torah) by yidden attempting to learn a dead or dying language for “ole times sake”….Its fine for those who are already fluent in English or Hebrew who find comfort in learning in the style of the their parents/grandparents but only contributes to dysfunction if kids are forced to live in a “Yiddish -only” world at school and at home.

    #1362454

    Not a waste of time for me it’s my first language

    #1362459

    chasid
    Participant

    The problem is that the kids come in not speaking hebrew or tiddish, the teacher takes hebrew (which the kids don’t understand) and translates it to Yiddish (which the kids don’t understand) and then the kids have to figure it out nack yo English.
    So if you’re smart you can do it, if not you suffer

    The bottom line is that yiddish is a language and needs to be taught as a language. Chumash is a subject and should not be used as a tool to teach yiddish.
    It’s simply bad pedagogy.

    #1362555

    Avi K
    Participant

    I see no reason for studying pidgin German unless one wants to teach the literature in a college. After learning English and Hebrew kids should learn a language which will be useful in business such as French, German (both similar to English) or Russian (less so but not completely different as for historical reasons it has French, German and Greek influences).

    #1362563

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    770chabad- back to the Yiddish in Chabad school issues. I’m asking out of curiosity, not to put down. I still don’t see how this works- I can see how it works in other chasidus, where they are insular and Yiddish speaking at home. But I never suspected that Chabad, with the large influx of BTs, was the same way- so you are saying that kids from BT homes, who never spoke Yiddish in their lives, whose parents don’t speak Yiddish, will switch out of public school, say at age 9, and go to a Yiddish speaking school, and the sefarim you described is enough to get them through? Or maybe these kids stay in the local Chabad day schools? But then you are creating a sub-community within the community, the BTs will never integrate.
    The other issue that you did not answer, is how a boy who only learned to speak, read, and write English at home in his after-cheder time, can grow up to be an eloquent Shaliach who can communicate articulately with the people in his very out of town communities where the locals do not speak Yiddish. I imagine that shlichus goes beyond putting tefillin on someone and teaching them how to say shema and serving lots of meals on yomim tovim- they must talk and express themselves, teach deep concepts etc. How do they manage?

    #1362573

    When someone goes on shlichus the rebbe is with them. we carry” the rebbe with us wherever we go . So they figure out how to write a speech they write it and I’m sure someone just edits it.
    And the Yiddish the teachers speak in English but they teach in Yiddish
    And only one girls skwl do the speak and teach in Yiddish and they learn math in Yiddish science in Yiddish history in Yiddish ….

    #1362597

    kj chusid
    Participant

    “The rebbe is with them” last I checked the Lubavitcher rebbe ZT”l was niftar 24 years ago..,,,

    #1362787

    23 years ago not 24….
    but spiritually he is here(were not gonna discus if hes alive phys./spiritually. if u wanna start the convo u may but not here lets stay on topic)

    #1362748

    Redleg
    Participant

    I grew up in a home where Yiddish was spoken as well as English so I did not encounter much difficulty in understanding Taitch. The problem these days is that most American born Rebbis (except those in Chassidishe communities) don’t really speak Yiddish very well so most of what they teach in is “Yinglish” (sometimes called Yeshivish). I maintain that Instruction should be in English. English has, by far, the largest and most nuanced vocabulary of any language, enabling precise translation of the most complicated concepts. Of course, the problem with that is that most American born Rebbis don’t speak English very well either.

    P.S. RMF maintained that all Ashkenazi Jews should learn Yiddish as a Minhag Kadosh.

    #1362875

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You just cant “figure out how to write a speech”. People know how well you speak and will many times act on how you speak. Poor English is not a positive trait when trying to speak to an english speaking crowd

    #1362753

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The US State Department ranks language learning difficult levels on a scale from 1 to 3. 1 being easiest for an english speaker to learn and 3 being the Hardest. Germanic Languages (Except German) and Romance Languages are 1 and Asians languages are usualy a 3. German is a 2 they estimate it will take 1000 hours to become fluent in german as opposed to 400 hours to become fluent in French or Spanish. It is not so easy for an english speaker to learn german.

    I agree that learning a foreign language is useful and good and yiddish is a secondary language, my issues with it are that is languages are more than just speaking, its reading and writing. There are very few books a frum jew would read in yiddish and the only sefer I know of is the Tsnea Urena . The other good books in yiddish are unlikley to be taught in a chassidic school like Tevye the Milkman (Fiddler on the Roof).

    I also strongly disgree with making yiddish primary over english (or Hebrew in Israel) as one must communicate in the local language and people treat you by how well you know the local lanaguge and I dont care what you are told. Most people who come from these places have very poor english skills, not matter what they are told. If you want to make a good english speaker and reader and then teach Yiddish as a secondary language, that is fine

    #1363074

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Does the practice of speaking Yiddush have value as an anti-assimilation tool?

    #1363070

    Chabad speaks Yiddish not yinglish

    #1363114

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Does the practice of speaking Yiddush have value as an anti-assimilation tool?”

    Absolutely.

    #1363122

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “Does the practice of speaking Yiddush have value as an anti-assimilation tool?”

    If the only way people will be frum is to make them speak a language nobody else understands and not let people speak the language of the country, then there is something wrong with your yiddishkeite

    #1363132

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “If the only way people will be frum is to make them speak a language nobody else understands and not let people speak the language of the country, then there is something wrong with your yiddishkeite.”

    Speaking Yiddush is one tool, not the whole toolbox.

    #1363144

    Nobody forces them to know Yiddish

    #1363156

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Joe…

    If you want a really state-of-the art and cost-effective “anti-assimilation tool”, simply move all yidden into some underground cave…perhaps the facility at Yucca Mountain in Nevada on which we’ve already spent 22 billion dollars as a nuclear waste repository.

    #1363487

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Torah is the Tool and the only tool to keep someone Frum. Not any language.

    #1363510

    Mammele
    Participant

    GH: that was a bit too harsh, even coming from you, and even though I realize you’re being sarcastic.

    #1363566

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Mammele….I was seeking to be a bit over the top in response to someone suggesting that restricting the language skills of children to Yiddish only is a good idea because it might help reduce or prevent assimilation. I personally find that abusive to the child in that it makes it more likely that such child will have major difficulties when he seeks to marry and support a family and discovers his inability to communicate renders him dysfunctional for most professions and careers and unable to earn a good parnassah to support himself and his family.

    #1363587

    Avi K
    Participant

    770, someone who speaks Yiddish n fact speaks pidgin German.

    #1363614

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yiddish is not Pidgin german, it is Yiddish its own language. With a whole history , culture and Literature with it.

    The problem none of these are taught and the yiddish spoken is lousy Yiddish and its taught at the expense of English and Hebrew. if AFTER your kids speak , read and write perfect english you want them to learn Yiddish, Gezun Deh heh. And when you do, make sure its GOOD Yiddish and not Yinglish

    #1363998

    We speak the real old Yiddish from back in Russia not with any English

    #1364062

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Avi K, you wish. Learning German as a Yiddish speaker is almost as hard as learning it knowing only English.

    #1364053

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ZD: Yiddish did not come down with the luchos. If you want to believe it is its “own” language, you are free to do so. Most believe that is derived from the German language.

    #1364091

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    iacisrmma, by that logic English is not its own language either.

    #1364092

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    770….what is the yichus derived from speaking the “real ole Yiddish” from Russia as distinct from any other form of Yiddish (other than hydbrid “Yinglish”)…..

    #1364089

    It’s from Russian Hebrew German polish

    #1364088

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Of course Yiddish is derived from Old German

    But french and Spanish are derived from Latin

    And English is derived from German and French

    Just because a language is derived from another language (as most are) doesnt mean its not a real language

    #1364226

    Avi K
    Participant

    In any case, I still see no value in studying it, much less speaking it unless one wants to be an anthropologist or historian.

    #1364237

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont think studying it is the problem, I really think its the way its presented

    People study dead or dying languages all the time and in fact in Ireland, Irish (Gaelic) is taugh in public schools, but the general population wants to speak english

    I was once at a small gathering of about 30 people. Maybe 3 of 4 spoke Yiddish. Someone got up to say a Dvar torah who was a native english speaker and purposely gave the dvar torah in Yiddish when he knew most people did not understand it without any translation. This would never occur in any other language. Can you imagine if this was ancient Greek , People would expect a translation or for the speaker to speak in English (Unless it was a seminar in Ancient Greek)

    #1364224

    Avi K
    Participant

    ZD,
    1. A language is a dialect with an army and a navy (the adage was popularized by the sociolinguist and Yiddish scholar Max Weinreich).
    2. Actually, you used that term once. However, upon further examination I see that Yiddish is actually a creole language. “A creole language is a stable natural language developed from a mixture of different languages. While the concept is similar to that of a mixed or hybrid language, in the strict sense of the term, a mixed/hybrid language has derived from two or more languages, to such an extent that it is no longer closely related to the source languages. Creoles also differ from pidgins in that, while a pidgin has a highly simplified linguistic structure that develops as a means of establishing communication between two or more disparate language groups, a creole language is more complex, used for day-to-day purposes in a community, and acquired by children as a native language. Creole languages, therefore, have a fully developed vocabulary and system of grammar.” (Wikipedia)
    3. In fact, Chazal take a shot at the Romans for not having their own language and alphabet.

    770, do you also celebrate the birthday of the Tsar yarum hodo?

    RY, I am presently studying German (and French) on Duolingo. Actually the relationship to English (and the few Yiddish words I know) make it easier (so sayeth The Foreign Service Institute of the US Department of State, which ranks both Germna and French in the easiest learning category for English-speakers ) and more interesting.

    #1364396

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ZD
    “This would never occur in any other language. ”

    Incorrect. At Harvard’s graduation a speech in LAtin is given there are likely fewer Latin speakers than Yiddish speakers today.

    I didnt read through the entire thread, SO this may have been mentioned but I a m glad I speak/understand Yiddish it was the language of the Gedolim of a generation ago. We still have numerous recordings of Yiddish speeches by R’ Moshe R’ Yoshe Ber (available on YUtorah) among others. I think being able to hear thier Torah firsthand is worthwhile

    #1364397

    Who is Tsar yarum hodo? A czar ? Pls explain…
    Gh have a convo with any lubav u ll see the yiddishs real
    U can start lol

    #1364398

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yiddish is like another English when it comes to learning German.

    #1364401

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    RedLEg
    “English has, by far, the largest and most nuanced vocabulary of any language, enabling precise translation of the most complicated concepts.”

    what makes you say that? I have some familiarity with French and it is far more nuanced than English. Admittedly that is subjective.

    On wikipedia yo uwill find that French, Italian, German. dutch, Swedish among others have more twords than English. Im curious what led you to make your assertion :

    #1364467

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Latin was the Language of the Romans, not sure why Chazal would say they didnt have a language

    While I dont know where the Latin Alphabet comes from, I can tell you from my travells Its alot easier going to a country with a Latin Alphabet than going to one without it. Even if I cant pronounce any of the words, I can read the street signs easily. Having an Alphabet that nobody else uses is a problem in todays global world.

    The exact number of words in any language is impossible to count, as some languages allow compond words with grammar and english allows alot of latin scientific words

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