The Faces of Poverty in the Holy Land

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  • #611326
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m starting this thread because I wanted to hear what Daas Yochid thought of this video.

    My first thoughts are (1) to quote three Gemaros, one in Kesubos (49b) and the other two in Bava Basra (91b & 110a).

    My other thought is (2) that the Atime org. has many people who would be happy to adopt and support Yiddishe children whose parents are unable to support their own. Perhaps something can be worked out so that parents in Israel who are overwhelmed and can’t feed their own children have fewer mouths to feed, while potential parents in the US can raise that child al pi halacha and without malnourishment.

    Your thoughts?

    #988020
    WIY
    Member

    gavra_at_work

    You cant be serious.

    #988021
    golfer
    Participant

    The introduction to the video states that Israel has a higher poverty rate than any of the European countries, such as Greece, facing a severe recession.

    Can anyone think of a reason why this is so?

    #988022
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Google A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift, he addresses Gavra At Work’s suggestion.

    #988023
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I haven’t seen it (never heard of it until now).

    I assume the adoption idea is tongue-in-cheek.

    #988024
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Parents giving up their kids is no solution. The Haredim need to go to work.

    #988025
    scroller
    Member

    gavra_at_work: What about the gemara in Eruvin 21b-22a?

    ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????

    ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?????

    #988026
    takahmamash
    Participant

    I love how the film manages to blame government cutbacks for Chareidi poverty, as if it’s the government’s function to support the Chareidim. It’s not. Nor is it mine. The system is imploding; there are simply too many learners and not enough earners.

    #988027
    interjection
    Participant

    Do you really think that parents who live in Israel and refuse to work because they are so concerned with their ruchniyus, would send their kids to the states to live?

    The Israelis in my husband’s kollel are starving. They have no money to eat anything at all and they live with the utmost bitachon. They are the happiest people alive. It was only by accident that my husband only found out how poor they are because they definitely don’t show it. Happy or not, if they’re not even paying the grocery bill it baffles me why they don’t get jobs.

    #988028
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I haven’t seen it (never heard of it until now).

    I assume the adoption idea is tongue-in-cheek.

    Only semi-serious. If I had suggested they cook and eat their children (as I saw others on this thread suggest), no one would have even considered it. This way it makes you think.

    Did you view the video?

    What about the gemara in Eruvin 21b-22a?

    Exactly. Should have included it on the list as well. Thanks.

    #988029
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Happy or not, if they’re not even paying the grocery bill it baffles me why they don’t get jobs.

    I believe they seriously believe it is Assur to do so (as told to them by their Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva), just like they would never consider getting paid for doing Melacha on Shabbos.

    #988030
    scroller
    Member

    “Exactly. Should have included it on the list as well. Thanks.”

    You are welcome, but it seems to me that the gemara I quoted in eiruvin is contradictory in spirit to the one you quoted in kesuvos. Perhaps the point is that one should (or is certainly allowed to) treat his family like raven….but not worse than a raven. I can quote it in english if that helps.

    “Black as a raven With whom do you find these? With him who for their sake rises early [to go] to, and remains late in the evening [before returning home

    from] the schoolhouse. Rabbah explained: [You find these only] with him who for their sake

    You see, while the gemara you quoted in kesuvos in pro-family-support at expense of everything else the one I quoted is certainly not. It is saying that the highest levels of Torah scholarship can only be found in someone who acts harsh towards his family by limiting his support of them and focusing instead on Torah scholarship.

    #988031
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You see, while the gemara you quoted in kesuvos in pro-family-support at expense of everything else the one I quoted is certainly not. It is saying that the highest levels of Torah scholarship can only be found in someone who acts harsh towards his family by limiting his support of them and focusing instead on Torah scholarship.

    And Rav Adda does not suggest that others support his children, rather that his children find their own means of support (by working in the fields, for example. A modern day equivalent would be dumpster-diving, which is a way of life for many here in the USA). That is also a possibility to solve the problem, which is why I could have included it originally (but didn’t think of it. I’m glad you did).

    From Wikipedia:

    The karung guni, Zabbaleen, the rag and bone man, waste picker, junk man or bin hoker are people who make their living by sorting and trading trash. A similar process known as gleaning was practiced in rural areas and some ancient agricultural societies, where the residue from farmers’ fields was collected.

    The use of child labor was a significant source of family income during the 19th and early 20th century, and certainly their work in the fields (for those who were rural). Chazal also suggest that children work to support the family in many places (such as the Maase Yadayim of the Bas Ketana, or those who are “Somech Al Shulchan Aviv). If there is not enough, then more workers are needed.

    (TIC)

    #988032
    scroller
    Member

    Im not sure if you are being sarcastic but the gemara would certainly not condone child dumpster-diving. In fact, Rav Adda was telling his wife to go find cheap food for his children to eat as the conversation was between him and her- no child labor. He was not telling his children to do so. Also, according to Rashi’s second interpretation as well the food mentioned had to be processed and baked.

    I think the point of this specific gemara is that for some families (not all) it is ok to “rough it out” and live at the poverty line for the sake of Torah scholarship. Though it is true that he never said to go take tzedaka. I do wonder if that would also apply in a prosperous secular society with the advent of advanced machinery and technology.

    I suppose also this would only apply to people who learn as sincerely as Rav Adda. Most people who do not have that aptitude should work several hours instead even according to that gemara.

    #988033
    scroller
    Member

    BTW: the gemara in kiddushin 73a does say that one reason one can wed someone who was adopted and does not know who their parents are even though such a person might be a mamzer is because parents do indeed give their children away to other families if they cannot afford to feed them. Thus there is a strong possibility the child was given away for that reason apposed to being a mamzer.

    #988034
    akuperma
    Participant

    “Poverty” is hard to define. If you accept the standard of “middle class” from 50 years ago, there is virtually no poverty (either in Israel, or America). Even among frum Israelis, diseases related to affluence (e.g. diabetes, caused by having too much to eat) are common. Comparing a poor Israeli to, as an example, the first Baron Rothschild (late 18th century), there is much that Rothschild would view with envy when looking at a poor kollel family (better selection of foods and especially of fruits and vegetables, low infant and maternal mortality, antibiotics and vaccines, drinkable water, indoor plumbing, air conditiong, electric lights, transportation faster and more comfortable than horseback). The truth, is that 21st century people are living as well as kings were a few centuries ago – and that’s true even those who are mesiras nefesh with their parnassah to do mitsvos. Note how “schnorrers” come to America to ask money for luxuries (as they were defined a century ago) such as large apartments, fancy weddings, etc.

    The real poverty is in places like north Tel Aviv or the secular neighborhoods and temples of America, where the people are totally impoverished of mitsvos and lead meaningless lives with no hope for the future (which explains why they don’t want children – to them the future is meaningless). We in the truely affluent neighborhoods such as Bnei Brak and Boro Park should pity them, but there isn’t much we can do to help. Their poverty is self-inflicted and the only solution is in their hands but they choose not to realize it.

    #988035
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I don’t want to start another of those threads about kollelim. People have their positions on this. I do want,however, to point out that the gemoro that “scroller” points to is one aggadata and not even the last word on this matter. The gemoro in Kiddushin (29A) on the other hand, is halacha and obligates a father to teach his son a trade.And the gemoro in brachos (35B) clearly tells us that that way of living is just not possible for normal human beings.

    #988037
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    akuperma: I like your post, but disagree with the conclusion. We CAN help, by being an example and showing how wonderful it is to be a Yid who follows the Ribbono Shel Olam. But we can only do so if we believe it ourselves, and act in a way that others will want to follow.

    #988038
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Hi,

    I watching this video and I am very confused. Can someone please explain to me the idea behind living a Torah lifestyle but not being able to afford food to feed themselves and their kids. IM EIN KEMACH EIN TORAH and vice versa. What is wrong with working a few days a week and learning at nights. Does Hashem really want us to live like this, in starvation? Can someone please help me I’m wuite troubled by this!!!

    #988039
    scroller
    Member

    rabbiofberlin: Actually, if you want to talk about strict halacha apposed to the spirit of the law, the gemara in kesuvos 49b is very clear on the matter. It clearly says that we CANNOT force a poor father to support his children and we CAN force rich people to support children who are not their own! Very interesting.

    ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????

    Rashi: ??? ????. ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????’ ???? ????

    #988042
    scroller
    Member

    rabbiofberlin: Also an interesting take is the gemara in kiddushin 82a: Rav Nehorai says a father is not obligated to teach a son who is a sincere talmid chacham a trade and only teach him Torah. I am not saying that people today should do this, but it is not a simple matter.

    ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???

    #988043
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    scroller: I believe we pasken like the Gemara which says a father must teach his son a trade, not like R’ Nehorai.

    #988044
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    scroller: you are being disingenious about the sugya in Kessubos. It is a long gemoro where clearly virtually all amoriom believe you must feed your kids. As a matter of fact, they say that it became a “takkanta” made in Usho. Rovoh’s words are only his and actually, tosfos says that one can force someone to feed other kids with verbal pressure and/or a specific set of payments.

    But all this is irrelevant. The Rambam (and Tur and Shulchan Aruch)paskens clearly (hilchos Ishus 12-14) that it is an obligation to feed one’s children until they are six and, if you have any money, till they grow up.

    AS far as Rav nehoroi- this is a ‘daas yochid” and the gemoro in berachos (35B) is the definite word on this- saying clearly that only a very few people can live without working.

    #988045
    scroller
    Member

    I dont think I am being disingenuous but I do love to see sources. I am showing sources in the gemara, not poskening halacha. You can also look at the source below: ??. ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???”? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????:

    Also in the gemara in brachos you mentioned the maharsha says that a tzadik gamur can only learn Torah. Anyway, it’s an interesting conversation.

    #988046
    scroller
    Member

    I looked but was not able to find that takana made in usho you are referring to. Can you copy and past it as a source so I can read it? Thanks

    #988047
    scroller
    Member

    I found it, its actually on daf 65b. That is only for children under age 6 though. The rambam you mentioned actually brings down this very gemara saying they cannot be forced if they are not wealthy.

    I still don’t see any sources that in anyway negate the gemara in eiruvin.

    #988048
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    scroller: interestingly, the Amorah who takes a cacalier attitude to feeding one’s children is “ROVOH+ and this is the samew “ROVOH” who is the only Amoiro in Kessubos who takes the attitude that you can allow a father to let his kids be reliant uopn tzedakah. He is consistent but all other Amoroim have different views on that.. However, as you noted, that is aggadata and we are bound by “halacha pesukkhoh”. Rambam, Tur , Shulchan Aruch, all say that there is a full obligation for fathers to feed their small children-till six- and the “takkono’ is for children until they grow up.

    I am not sure whether I want to repeat the arguments pro and con kollel on this thread. The gemoros that you mention and the Rambam are for very special and unique people,not for the klal.

    #988049
    scroller
    Member

    Well it’s really more a chiuv of the father to support his wife who in turn practically supports the child until 6. And it’s not until they grow up its until they mature (have pubic hairs- Rashi).

    I said from the beginning that the sources I quoted were only for very dedicated people. Do such people exists today? Is so and so one of them? That is not for me to say.

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