PBA: I don't think he thinks they're evil. He just thinks they're wrong and by going about being wrong in an improper way are making a Chillul Hashem, which I guess you could call evil.
But as you see from the post above yours, he does think so.
Well, luckily, I don't really care what he thinks.
Writer soul -"So Health, sure, go ahead and ask the non-frum lady next to you if she'd mind moving. But it's quite within her right to refuse without it being called charedi discrimination."
They have that right, but you didn't read my examples. The guy coughing also has the right not to move. The guy eating his ham sandwich next to a Muslim has the same right. But noone would be defending the guy/gal for not moving. They all would be attacking that person for lack of human decency. But when it comes to Charedim -there is a blatant Double Standard!
I'll defend the guy eating the ham sandwich.
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard."
En Garde!
+1 health
but they have No respect for Torah
You are a sinner if you dont respect a Chumra that is not in Halacha anywhere
zdad- your bonkers. I dont mean retarded, like the insulting way. I just mean that you continue to lie to yourself abee not to admit that people who dont live like you arent fanatics and that youre at the pinnacle of service to Hashem. hein hein hadvarim:Get a grip.
when did this "chumra" begin?
I visited Israel years ago and yes, I rode the #1 bus and the #2 bus through Geulah and Meah Shearim. Chareidi men & women generally arranged themselves so that they did not sit next to each other, but no one made a fuss about who sat where.
Health:
I've been on the B11 bus in Brooklyn which runs through Boro Park & is utilized by many frum men and women & I have never seen anyone insist that the seating had to be arranged to keep women and men apart.
What's next? I'm not allowed to eat food on the bus if it doesn't meet your particular standards for kashrus?
Your personal chumrah is YOUR issue. No one else is required to sacrifice for it.
zahavasdad -"You are a sinner if you dont respect a Chumra that is not in Halacha anywhere"
I don't get you -who said it's just a Chumra? Name the Poisek/Rav? In my S'A it says you can't touch women. Some Poiskim Matir where it's unavoidable. On an Israeli bus -why is it unavoidable esp. when they could move to the back of the bus?
Health: In my Tzitz Eliezer it says it's perfectly Muttar to sit next to a woman on a bus.
Health, even their proponents call these buses "mehadrin". This means more than what the Halacha requires.
Shrek -"Health:
I've been on the B11 bus in Brooklyn which runs through Boro Park & is utilized by many frum men and women & I have never seen anyone insist that the seating had to be arranged to keep women and men apart."
That's because these busses are too crowded and it's not feasible!
Sam2 -"Health: In my Tzitz Eliezer it says it's perfectly Muttar to sit next to a woman on a bus"
And he Matirs even when it's easily avoidable????
Health
Tell us where it says Back of the Bus is the Halacha. Give some poskim, give some sources
And no I am not bonkers, I am not allowed to MUTTAR things that are assur and likewise one cannot ASSUR things that are MUTTAR
"I visited Israel years ago and yes, I rode the #1 bus and the #2 bus through Geulah and Meah Shearim. Chareidi men & women generally arranged themselves so that they did not sit next to each other, but no one made a fuss about who sat where."
Shrek, that's how it is now, too. There are just a few 'separate seating' buses but no-one makes any fuss about where to sit on those either (besides for the handful of high-profile incidents).
In fact, after riding the [Jerusalem] buses for over 10 years I have never seen anyone even comment to a passenger who sat in the 'wrong' part of the bus - which often happens. There are no signs up about any seating arrangements and no coercion.
zahavasdad - "Health -
Tell us where it says Back of the Bus is the Halacha. Give some poskim, give some sources"
Stop twisting my & others words - just to be right! Noone ever said that the Halacha is for women to sit in the back of the bus.
You aren't allowed to sit next to a women if it can be avoided. For them to sit in the back is just the most practical way to avoid touching them. You and all the MO's and Non-Frum have to stop making this about discrimination on women. It's just about keeping Halacha. Some people just want to live a Torah life because they believe in the after-life. This isn't such a difficult concept, is it?
Avi K - "Health, even their proponents call these buses "mehadrin". This means more than what the Halacha requires."
A Kaska Oif Ah Meisah!
The Halacha is - It depends on the situation -if it's easily avoidable -you can't sit next to a woman. If it's unavoidable -then you can. Don't make blanket Heterim!
I remember taking Sherutim from Geula to Bnei Brak, it was interesting, the Charidishe man would ask the non frum men,to switch places so the Charidi didn't have to sit next to a woman. I never saw any non-compliance. I took this Shreut often as I lived near BB. I think that the darchi noam approach is still best. I think most of the objections is to the violence employed. which is much more than it used to ever be.
Health Said
<em > Stop twisting my & others words - just to be right! Noone ever said that the Halacha is for women to sit in the back of the bus.
It's just about keeping Halacha. Some people just want to live a Torah life because they believe in the after-life. This isn't such a difficult concept, is it?
So in the first statment you said its Not the Halacha and in the second paragraph you said it WAS the Halacha
You cant have it both ways. Either its not the halacha or it is the Halacha.
zahavasdad -"So in the first statment you said its Not the Halacha and in the second paragraph you said it WAS the Halacha
You cant have it both ways. Either its not the halacha or it is the Halacha."
I thought I was pretty clear. The Halacha is you can't sit next to women on a bus, unless it's unavoidable. You can avoid sitting next to them if they move and sit in the back of the bus.
Do you really don't understand this or you just feel to pick and choose what Halacha to listen to & what not to?
Rav Moshe said you can sit next to a woman on a Bus or Subway, if you dont want to sit next to a woman, you are free to move somewhere else on the bus without forcing your beliefs on anyone else.
If a Smelly Bum sits near me on the Subway instead of telling him to move, I move (Hopefully to the next car)
"You can avoid sitting next to them if they move and sit in the back of the bus."
The reality is that you cannot force someone else to move to the back of the bus, but:
You can avoid sitting next to them if you move and sit in the back of the bus.
Health: I don't recall seeing any mention of a Sha'as Had'chak, but I will admit that I haven't looked at it in years. It could be he thinks it's Muttar even when easily avoidable. In fact, that makes the most sense. Negiyah Derech Chibah is Yeihareg V'al Ya'avor. We wouldn't be Mattir it just for convenience. This is a case where it's either Muttar Lechatchilah or Assur B'dieved and there can't be a middle ground.
And some of us follow the Torah because it's what HKBH wants from us, not to get a reward in an afterlife.
Josh31 -"The reality is that you cannot force someone else to move to the back of the bus,"
Noone is forcing anybody -they are asking!
"but:
You can avoid sitting next to them if you move and sit in the back of the bus."
They can do this, but it brings up other Halacha problems. So it's easier if the women move to the back.
Sam2 -"Health: I don't recall seeing any mention of a Sha'as Had'chak, but I will admit that I haven't looked at it in years. It could be he thinks it's Muttar even when easily avoidable. In fact, that makes the most sense. Negiyah Derech Chibah is Yeihareg V'al Ya'avor. We wouldn't be Mattir it just for convenience. This is a case where it's either Muttar Lechatchilah or Assur B'dieved and there can't be a middle ground."
I'm pretty sure R. Moshe only Matirs B'shas Hadchak. I don't think anyone holds it's Mutter L'chatchilla!
"And some of us follow the Torah because it's what HKBH wants from us, not to get a reward in an afterlife."
Most don't! You have to be on a very high Madreiga to do it totally L'shishma.
Sam2- i think he means that if there could be issues with negi'ah like mayvee liday hrhur etc., it would make sense to avoid those circumstances even if they are at the moment muttar, for fear of the possiblities. And, i think the truth is, this is whats behind all the arguements here. one camp seems to want to assur anyhting that could maybe someday efshar bring about some form of kilkul, and the other camp wont assur a thing till you can bring 10 rayyos and teshuvos that its vadai ossur vi'unsho karres.This arguent will not disappear and it stems from basic hashkafic differences, so its entirely unproductive. One is letter of the law and one is spirit of the law. thats all there is to it.
Toi: I sort of agreed with you until your last sentence. One is the letter of the law while the other distorts the spirit of the law. There is really no "spirit of the law" concept in Judaism. We aren't Doresh Ta'amah Dikrah. If Halachah tells us something is Muttar or Assur then we listen to that, regardless of whatever feeling someone has as to what the Torah thinks is right or wrong. I'll give you a perfect example. A growing Baalas Tshuvah once asked me what Hashem wants, that she should fast and lay in bed all day on Yom Kippur or eat a bit and go to Shul? She said that since the point of fasting is only to help us focus on our Tefillos and the day, why should she fast?
I'm only talking M'ikar Hadin though. Granted, if a man sees that he is attracted to a woman sitting in a seat on a bus he should not sit next to her. It very quickly goes from Muttar Lechatchilah to Yeihareh V'al Ya'avor with no middle ground. A person has to have Seichel about it. I don't think mandating men and women to sit apart is called Seichel. I do think that people realizing their own issues and avoiding them is called Seichel.
I don't think mandating men and women to sit apart is called Seichel. I do think that people realizing their own issues and avoiding them is called Seichel.
What happened to Gedarim?
GAW: This is obviously a "Geder" that the application of has caused serious problems.
Shulchan Aruch paskens l'halacha a man must stay "very very far" from women. L'halacha.
Sam2-See, this is where the disagreement arises. The other side would hold that since there is a rather large tzad that a man can manage to find a woman attractive, its kidei to try and make gedarim that will hold that back. cuz once he's holding at yaharog vi'al ya'avor its kinda late. Therefore, they advocate that separate seating on a bus is called seichel.
Toi: In theory I don't disagree with that. In practice I see that more problems than good have come of it.
GAW: This is obviously a "Geder" that the application of has caused serious problems.
Who says? Those who created them? Has Gur, Satmer etc. come out against it? Perhaps they feel that none the less the geder is worthwhile.
Sam2- its not the geder. its when people adopt a rosa parks men-are-better-then-women and we'll show you so by putting them in the back type of attitude, which is entirely not in the spirit of the geder. why dont you shry at people who sit separately at weddings? Why do the men get to sit near the bar?! Why dont women get to play in the nfl?! ridiculous.
Why dont women get to play in the nfl?!
They are allowed to do so. I Guess no one is good enough yet, but it probably will happen sooner or later.
Sam2:
You are on the wrong side of this one.
Firstly, no problems have come of this. The problems have come when rosa parks wannabe's try to get in the news.
Second, that is not what this battle is about. Nobody but you is talking about precisely how it works or doesn't in practice. The non frum and the MO are calling us bigots for thinking it is ok or proper to sit separately- everything else is peirush.
adams: agree totally. talking nicely goes a lot further in the short-run and long-run. if you want to get people to go along with halacha, chumra, whatever, acting like a mentsch is always the way to go.
BTW, I think "sheirutim" means bathroom.
Toi: I have been to very few weddings and almost none of them were separate seating (dancing obviously always is). I guess part of the issue is that I don't feel we need to make our own Gezeiros. If the Poskim don't decide it's necessary, who are we to think that we know better than them?
I thought to respond to this thread, but I see that a lot of the issues I wanted to mention have already been discussed. I did want to bring up a point about having a personal car if we don't like taking the buses. Please keep in mind that, per a recent article in YWN, the price of gasoline here costs $7.95 per gallon. It's no joke. Even if you can afford to buy a car, which the purchase has a tax rate of more than 100% on top of the value of the car, so you figure out how a regular chareidi family, EVEN IF the father (and mother) works, could afford to drive the car??? It's not an option, I promise.
The issue of studying history is so ridiculous. Don't we have enough history of our own to study, like just Jewish history for the last 5000 or so years can be studied by Jews more importantly than American history and civil rights. I don't think many people here associate sitting in the back of the bus with Rosa Parks, but it has come from the outside - media and other people who have no connection to the issues.
Sam2 - I have heard that in times when the pull by the YH is very strong then we have a right (and maybe a chiyuv) to put more gedarim in place. Eizeh hu chochom, haroeh es hanolad - it wouldn't take such a stupid person to figure out that a man sitting next to a woman decked out in her skin tight, skin-revealing clothes, with loads of make-up and perfume on top of that, would feel some form of attraction to her, and by then it's too late. Most of the buses that come from the chareidi areas do obvious go to more mixed parts of town, but the chiloni has no big need to get on these buses but for a few stops, since he doesn't need to go to the end of where those buses go.
And as far as buses going into Meah Shearim, I'm not sure that it's not bad to put a stop to that. The street is so narrow that you could feel like you're going to be run over by a bus at any minute, so let the buses go around that stretch of town. They go by the start and end of those neighborhoods and you can walk in on your own from there.
Toi and PBA - you really said it the best.
You've been at very few weddings. Sofo mochi'ach al tchiloso.
Riding public transport has been around for over 100 years
The New York City Subway was built in 1905, the London Underground is older than that.
Warsaw had a tram (Trolley) from around the year 1900
So its clear this is not a new issue, Its clear The Chofetz Chaim, Rav Chaim Ozer etc all knew about riding on a vehicle with members of the opposite gender. Did any of them ban it?
zdad: I have no problem with travelling crammed in a London underground train. But when it's a bus packed to double-capacity with frum men and women squashed together nose to nose, bus twisting and turning and everyone falling over each other, then it is not very comfortable. Separate seating is a good solution.
In any case, you cannot take absence of action as proof.
zdad- you really could sell yourself the brooklyn bridge. And I hate cliches- but sometimes...
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