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1. uneeq
   Ironically, redundant subtitles can be redundantly ironic.

   I have a little story that has come to it's unfortunate end just today, which I think is worthy to share with the CR chevra.

   In the past year, I had the z'chus to visit the great R' Chaim Kanievsky to get a brocho. My chavrusa requested that I take a paper with a couple of names to request a refua shelema. I was with a couple people and we all went in separately with our requests. When it got to my turn, I handed him a paper with my requests, and was wished Hatzlocho. I then handed over the second paper that my chavrusa requested I bring for him.

   What happened next is startling:
   The Rov takes the paper, looks for a second, and suddenly screams out "Hashem Yirachem!!". He said it so loud that people heard from outside the room when the door was closed.I was taken aback and couldn't say anything. It was as if the Rov was predicting horrible news.

   I made sure not to relate to my chavrusa what happened at the Rov's house, as on the names he sent with me were one of his relatives, and one of his Mashiach from a previous yeshiva. I wasn't sure which one the Rov made the comment about, so I stayed quiet.

   Today, my friend passed around a paper to learn le'ilui nishmas the Mashgiach that passed away yesterday. The unfortunate prediction came true.

   I kept the paper until today, and I will keep the paper for a long time, as I feel it signifies the Power of a Gadol.

   Posted 6 months ago #

2. Syag Lchochma
   Tell it to me, and I will tell you if it's Loshon Hara :)

   Thank you for that story. I had a similar thing happen when my sister was critically ill. A friend went to the Stiepler Zt''l to ask for a brocho for her. My friend told another friend that instead of giving her a brocha, the Gadol said something else that my friend understood to mean that she would not recover (I never found out exactly what the words were). She died two days later. B''H there is still a Gadol alive who can see as he saw.

   Posted 6 months ago #

3. crisisoftheweek
   Wanna know how I got this subtitle?

   So you think the "power of a gadol" is that he can look at a list of names and see whose time has run out?

   Nope, they are human just like you or I. They have ammassed insane amounts of Torah knowledge and can apply it to their halachic rulings but there is no crystal ball that allows them to see the future.

   Could just be that the Gadol was familiar with the situation vis a vi the persons family coming to him and sharing details which might not have been know to your friend who gave you the request.

   #rationalistsmackdown

   Posted 6 months ago #

4. MDG
   Member

   "Nope, they are human just like you or I. They have ammassed insane amounts of Torah knowledge and can apply it to their halachic rulings but there is no crystal ball that allows them to see the future."

   Their vast Torah knowledge and deep Yirat Hashem brings them to spiritual heights we cannot understand.

   Posted 6 months ago #

5. jewish source
   Member

   crisis of the week is an understatement. you are crisis of you life. you need a little emunas chachomim. bh there are those that still have it. look at yesterdays daf. kol hayodea lechasheiv tekufos umazolos look ay Rashi hakodosh. that it means seeing the future.

   Posted 6 months ago #

6. zahavasdad
   Member

   I dont mean to doubt anyone's faith, but the Steipler would never meet with a woman, He only took Kvitels in writing because he was hard of hearing and he would not take Kvitels from women.

   Posted 6 months ago #

7. crisisoftheweek
   Wanna know how I got this subtitle?

   If "Emunas Chachomim" means believing ordinary human beings have super powers then no thank you.

   Posted 6 months ago #

8. cantgetit
   Joseph

   What DOES Emunas Chachomim mean to you?

   Posted 6 months ago #

9. Syag Lchochma
   Tell it to me, and I will tell you if it's Loshon Hara :)

   zdad - right. my friend is male. Was it harder to believe that my friend was male than to believe I was telling the truth? interesting.

   Posted 6 months ago #

10. zahavasdad
    Member

    Emunas Chachanim IMO refers to DAYAN. That if you go to the Dayan that you have faith in him being able to judge fairly without bias.

    Emunas Chachamin IMO does not mean i would trust a Gadol to perform brain surgery on me.

    Posted 6 months ago #

11. ready now
    Blocked

    ZD wrote "does not mean i would trust a Gadol to perform brain surgery on me."

    Does that mean that you ZD, are going to stop writing anti-Torah posts? I hope so. And I hope some others will also stop posting anti -Torah posts.

    Physical “brain-surgery”, or spiritual “brain surgery” we don’t want it from you and the others as you have often dished it out.

    Posted 6 months ago #

12. interjection
    Member

    "So you think the "power of a gadol" is that he can look at a list of names and see whose time has run out? Nope, they are human just like you or I."

    That my friend, is kefira.

    Posted 6 months ago #

13. Matan1
    Member

    interjection-"That my friend, is kefira."
    How is that kefira exactly? Does that violate one of the principles of the Rambam?

    Posted 6 months ago #

14. zahavasdad
    Member

    RN

    If you would trust a gadol to perform brain surgery on you, especially one who was not a doctor and never performed actual surgery before, Gezundahay

    Posted 6 months ago #

15. uneeq
    Ironically, redundant subtitles can be redundantly ironic.

    Crisis: All that is written on the paper is refua shelema, the name eliyahu Ben leah and one other name. Now, I'm not sure that the power is that he can see right away the fate of every name that he sees.

    I do not know if he has ruach hakodesh, whatever that term means nowadays. What I do know is that he sees thousands of names of people every day that have non-terminal illnesses, with maybe a percent of them that won't survive.

    For me, it is the power of a gadol to have a much greater clarity of the future than regular people.

    Posted 6 months ago #

16. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Emunas Chachamin IMO does not mean i would trust a Gadol to perform brain surgery on me.

    That's straw man argument, because a gadol who is unqualified would not perform brain surgery. In fact, I have never heard of a gadol who performed brain surgery (although the Chazon Ish famously mapped out a plan for surgery which a skilled, practiced surgeon carried out successfully).

    Part of emunas chachomim is trusting them that they won't overestimate their abilities.

    Posted 6 months ago #

17. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    Interjection: That is not at all K'fira. What makes it K'fira?

    Posted 6 months ago #

18. Ben Levi
    Member

    You can sya what you want however a close member of my family was told by Doctors that he would never walk again.

    Several Gedolei Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel were approached.

    They all said that the erson would recover and everything would be fine.

    Less then two weeks later the person started to walk.

    The irreligous Doctors stated it was a miracle.

    Posted 6 months ago #

19. ready now
    Blocked

    ZD The point is YOU should not perform your brain surgery on everyone else, with your constant anti - Jewish posts.

    Get a job. You are living off the blood of Jewish people.

    Posted 6 months ago #

20. WIY
    Member

    crisisoftheweek
    There is a spiritual koach that Hashem gives to certain Tzaddikim who are basically totally absorbed in Torah and Avodah that they can see or sense certain things that we cannot. There are many stories with the Steipler, the Baba Sali and others zatzal. These stories happened recently enough and they were told over by eye witnesses and the people it happened to. So you basically want to say that all these people are lying and that the brachos and havtachos that various Tzaddikim gave that came true is all made up or coincidence. YOU CALL YOURSELF RATIONAL?!

    Yes gedolim are human they aren't aliens but what makes them great is their determination and success in overcoming their natural human inclinations and limitations and physical drives to become masters of their free will.

    Posted 6 months ago #

21. Shraga18
    Member

    "So you think the "power of a gadol" is that he can look at a list of names and see whose time has run out? Nope, they are human just like you or I."

    "That my friend, is kefira."

    It's not kefira, it's close-mindedness. There are plenty of eyewitnesses, including myself, who have seen gedolim do and say things which can't be explained naturally. Unfortunately when it goes counter to crisis' (and others) beliefs and world view, they would prefer to believe that me, uneeq, and all the other witnesses are blatant liars rather than entertain the notion they may be wrong.

    So they're either close-minded, or they feel so threatened (not sure why) that they prefer to put their fingers in their ears and shout "NANANA -I CAN'T HEAR YOU".

    Posted 6 months ago #

22. zahavasdad
    Member

    DY

    Its actually not a straw man argument. There is definatly different views about asking Shalias about not Halachic issues and if you must listen to a tshuva if given one.

    Would you trust the Gadol in answering medical or financial questions unrelated to Halacha (Should I go to that Doctor, Should I leave my job)

    Many asked Shalias before WWII and were told to stay and everything will be fine. The Hungarian especially told them to stay put and the leadership knew what was happening to Polish Jewery

    Posted 6 months ago #

23. BaalHabooze
    On the rocks

    WIY +1

    Well said! I really hope crisisoftheweek and zahavasdad reads and rereads that post.

    Posted 6 months ago #

24. WIY
    Member

    Zdad
    The Holocaust is very clearly an exception. Its not something that ever happened before and nobody imagined that someone would take over entire continents and kill all the Jews. This never happened before in history. In the past we got bounced from country to country within a close radius give or take. It never was an issue of switching continents and travelling so far away.

    My next point is slightly controversial but I will say it anyways because its the emes. At least the concept is. There were many people advised not to go to the US due to the spiritual nisyonos. It is better to die al kiddush Hashem as a frum kosher yerei shomayim than live a long life as a Jew who threw it all away. I have relatives who came before the war. They are all totally not frum totally. And they came from strictly chassidish families. No Yiddishkiet left by them they all threw it all away. So maybe min Hashomayim Hashem knew that many of these people were not strong enough and therefore put it into the Rabbonims minds to advise them to stay.

    I have an additional possible scenario and that is that at the time the shayla was asked maybe it was possible that there was no gezeirah yet on Hungary and for whatever reason Hashem decided to add Hungary into the mix at a later point.

    However throughout our history it has always been the practice of those who want to do dvar Hashem to seek counsel by Tzaddikim. Baruch Hashem this still goes on today. I'm not saying every Rabbi is qualified in this respect but certainly the Gedolei Hador the ziknei hador are qualified in being asked advice in all matters. If they really don't know they will say I don't know. That's also Gadlus.

    Posted 6 months ago #

25. crisisoftheweek
    Wanna know how I got this subtitle?

    These stories of "miracles" happen on a bell curve. WE tend to only pay heed to the ones where the results are "spooky" and indicative of some super natural ability.

    I will admit that the dedication it takes to study Torah that in depth will give the person better control of some cognative process I do not believe that all of the sudden their brain gains the ability to see anything via the supernatural.

    Oh and to label me a "kofer" because I dont believe that the Baba Sali could shoot lasers out of his eyes or that Rav Elyashiv could predict this that and the next thing tells me that papal infallibility is alive and well in our community.

    Posted 6 months ago #

26. zahavasdad
    Member

    There was a famous case about 20 years ago of a Chassidic woman in Brooklyn with issues, The issues were known to the community . The Rebbe told the parents to have more children and she eventually killed one of her kids.

    When she was being arrested she was pregnant too.

    Posted 6 months ago #

27. zahavasdad
    Member

    Just for the record I am not saying you shouldnt ask a Gadol for advice or a Bracha. Of course you should, but in non-Halachic areas you are not required to follow and you should seek as many people you can for proper guidence who might have relavent information.

    If C'V you need Brain Surgery seek several opinions from experts in the field then seek the Rav for a Bracha.

    Posted 6 months ago #

28. TheBearIsBack
    (Otis)zviller Rebbe

    Zdad, please stop your LH and MSR. I remember the case, and I know exactly what the issues were. It was not even clear who killed the kid. Suffice it to say the mother was not physically strong enough to have done what she was accused of, and the father would not have been fit to stand trial.

    The story about any Rebbe and any brochos was not even publicized in the worst trash paper, and at the time I read Ponim Chalashois as well as the Village Voice (the first for a good laugh and the latter for professional reasons, in my office beis kisse) so I knew what was in the worst trash paper.

    I guess you subscribed to Der Stuermer back then, because that is the only paper that would carry such lies.

    Posted 6 months ago #

29. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    It is a sad indictment of our generation that we ascribe papal infallibilty to our gedolim. It was never like that. Emunas chachomim has nothing to do with believing blindly in every saying of a godol. Can they give berochos? Absolutely. Can you tell us about very unusual stories of gedolim? certainly. but this does not mean that every word, every utterance should be followed. That is idolatry.

    Posted 6 months ago #

30. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    crisisoftheweek: I definitely do believe in the power of a gadol. There is a lot we don't understand. They are on a much higher level than any of us could imagine. I have heard so many stories (yes-true stories) that show this.

    MDG: "Their vast Torah knowledge and deep Yirat Hashem brings them to spiritual heights we cannot understand." +100000000

    Posted 6 months ago #

31. gavra_at_work
    ^caution

    There was a famous case about 20 years ago of a Chassidic woman in Brooklyn with issues, The issues were known to the community . The Rebbe told the parents to have more children and she eventually killed one of her kids.

    Rebbes are hereditary, and have no additional anything because of who their great-great grandfather was. A "Rebbe" can easily be a Hedyot.

    Posted 6 months ago #

32. gavra_at_work
    ^caution

    That's straw man argument, because a gadol who is unqualified would not perform brain surgery. In fact, I have never heard of a gadol who performed brain surgery (although the Chazon Ish famously mapped out a plan for surgery which a skilled, practiced surgeon carried out successfully).

    Part of emunas chachomim is trusting them that they won't overestimate their abilities.

    Well said.

    I'll also add my own theory. Nistakel B'Oraysah U'Bara Alma. Someone who is so engrossed in Torah that he only takes what the Torah thinks into account will naturally have a deep understanding of the physical world as well.

    Posted 6 months ago #

33. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    ZD,

    Thanks for your reply. However, it was and still is not a valid argument, because, as WIY said, a true gadol will not offer advice about something which he is not equipped to.

    There are two aspects to attributing expertise to a gadol. One works on a very practical level. Through the intensive learning of Torah, Hashem's wisdom, he becomes sharper, wiser, and his character refined to the point that his advice is unbiased, without personal motivation.

    Also, because of the responsibility of his leadership position, he researches the issues that come up frequently, and often does become an expert.

    There is another aspect, the supernatural. Call it ruach hakodesh, call it siyata dishmaya, but throughout history, and there's evidence that it still exists today, Hashem has allowed gedolim to see beyond what we would expect through natural means. Chasidim tend to stress this aspect, "litvaks" tend to stress the first aspect, but there's truth to both.

    This does not mean that gedolim are infallible. It does mean, though, that you've got a good chance of getting a wise, informed, caring answer from a gadol, with some siyata dishmaya.

    Examples of times that gedolim were "proven wrong" do not negate this fact, just as a doctor occasionally missing a diagnosis does not mean he's a horrible doctor, or that a patient is better off self diagnosing.

    Posted 6 months ago #

34. uneeq
    Ironically, redundant subtitles can be redundantly ironic.

    crisisoftheweek: These stories of "miracles" happen on a bell curve. WE tend to only pay heed to the ones where the results are "spooky" and indicative of some super natural ability.

    Speak for yourself. I never personally heard a Gadol say anything spooky in my life before, and I never heard stories of R' Chaim ever yelling out Hashem Yeracheim. That's the reason I kept the paper with the names. While I do believe in the power of gedolim, honestly I was kinda testing to see if something bad would end up happening. It happened, and my belief has been strengthened- not only in their powers, but also in Hashem.

    Posted 6 months ago #

35. ZeesKite
    Aquilone Dolce

    rabbiofberlin: "but this does not mean that every word, every utterance should be followed. That is idolatry."

    I may not be the most popular figure here these days (until some brave entity declares so), but we that the holy Tana, Rabban Gamliel, even when ousted, still joined in.

    I beg to disagree. Every statement of a Talmid Chacham must be weighed, analysed, considered. אפילו שיחת חולין של ת"ח צריכין לימוד. And the concept of אפילו אומר על ימין שהוא שמאל.

    Posted 6 months ago #

36. MDG
    Member

    crisis said "I do not believe that all of the sudden their brain gains the ability to see anything via the supernatural."

    See Parashat Vayera, where Hagar could not see a well until Hashem let her see it. It's a big, fat hole in the ground. How could anyone miss that? Well, anyone could miss it (or see it) if that's Hashem's will. The same is true for other insights into the world.

    Posted 6 months ago #

37. MDG
    Member

    GAW said "Rebbes are hereditary, and have no additional anything because of who their great-great grandfather was. A "Rebbe" can easily be a Hedyot."

    I heard that Rebbes are usually groomed for their position. It gives me the impression that any of us can achieve our own gadlus if we really tried. I feel that I'm a gadol in mediocrity.

    Posted 6 months ago #

38. zahavasdad
    Member

    A wise decision is not nessasarily right.

    Regading the Holocaust, Based on previous experience staying where you were was good advice and wise. However the rules changed. There was always Anti-Semitism and maybe some people were killed in a pogram, but never before were entire commuinities wiped out (The Crusades and Chemneski came nowhere near to the Nazis)

    Posted 6 months ago #

39. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    I will IY"H explain the super-rationalist position on the "power of Gedolim". Many things in Judaism are reactionary. We see throughout history that Minhagim and G'zeiros came around as reactions to issues affecting Judaism. Most recently, the Kollel lifestyle was a reaction necessary to save Torah learning post-WWII and before that the Mussar and Chassidic movements were reactions to the Haskala.

    A lot of the super-rationalists see places where Chassidus influenced or changed standard Jewish thought and are attempting to go even more rational than Jewish thought was in the first place to counter that. The concepts of "Daas Torah" and "Emunas Chachamim", which are now spoken of as Ikkarei Emunah by some here, just didn't exist in even close to the same manner (if at all) 500 years ago. People always went to a Rav or Rosh Yeshivah for advice, but they never treated their words (nor did the Rav himself treat his words) as Halachos L'moshe Misinai. It is very clear that Jewish thought in this area has been influenced by Chassidism (I wonder if a Bar Ilan search would even show up the phrases "Daas Torah" and "Emunas Chachamim" if you went Rishonim and earlier) and some are reacting to the extreme to that to try and say that that is not part of what they feel is authentic Judaism.

    Posted 6 months ago #

40. longarekel
    Member

    Sam2: Emunas chachamim is mentioned in avos perek 6 as one of the 48 things required in order to aquire torah.
    The fact that a human being can reach the level of ruach hakodesh is part of torah sheba'al pe. The written sources are many. (See braisa of Rabi Pinchas Ben Yair which forms the basis of the sefer Mesillas Yeshorim, for example.) One who denies this reality is a kofer in an area of torah sheba'al pe and is therefore an apikorus. See Rambam Hilchos Rotzeach 4:10 uncensored version for what should be done to kofrim and apikorsim.

    Posted 6 months ago #

41. zahavasdad
    Member

    The Vilna Gaon considered Chassidus Kefira

    Posted 5 months ago #

42. gavra_at_work
    ^caution

    I heard that Rebbes are usually groomed for their position. It gives me the impression that any of us can achieve our own gadlus if we really tried. I feel that I'm a gadol in mediocrity.

    And? Genes still don't make someone qualified.

    Posted 5 months ago #

43. Shraga18
    Member

    "I will IY"H explain the super-rationalist position"

    Sam, very interesting post. If what you write is correct, the ironic outcome is that the super-rationalists are actually abandoning logic and common sense in order to further their rationalist agenda.

    Posted 5 months ago #

44. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    Shraga: Correct. It is exactly the same way that every area of Judiasm over the centuries has been "Mafriz Al Hamidah" in some regards to save Judaism from what they perceive is a grave threat. We still all eat Cholent (or Hamin) to show we're not Karaites!

    Longarekel: I am far from the expert, but do the Rishonim n Pirkei Avos explain Emunas Chachamim in the way that everyone here seems to assume it means?

    Posted 5 months ago #

45. TheBearIsBack
    (Otis)zviller Rebbe

    Learn a bit of history. There was nowhere to go during or prior to the war. A handful of visas were available here and there, some due to the work of heroes like Sugihara and Wallenberg (HY"D). The US did not even raise its quotas during the war and those quotas went unfulfilled. The whole argument is moot; the Shoah was a gezera and part of that gezera is that no one wanted to stop it by providing a refuge for Jews.

    (And no, our lesson is not that we need a medine. There is only ONE place in the world where a maniac can kill millions of Jews again - and a regime of maniacs in Teheran is developing a way to do just that in one fell swoop. I suspect that before such a thing happens, the US will turn its back on the medine to save itself and save its access to Gulf oil, and that will bring about Reb Yoilish's prediction of a peaceful end to the failed experiment that has cost so many lives, physically and spiritually.)

    As for the calumny about the leadership saving itself - just think what Yiddishkeit would look like had a handful of leaders, some of whom were actually in the concentration camps, not made it to the free world. It was only one rov who could be accused of saving himself or being saved by reshoim in any event, and the accusation is not true at all. His escape was paid for with funds from the Torah-true community and not by those who ran the train.

    Hashem has His ways. The churban is something we will never understand.

    Posted 5 months ago #

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