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Generally, people like to say that Eretz Yisroel is a holier place than America. However, I don’t understand something. Why do Ashkenzaim and Sephardim get along so much better in America? Maybe in Lakewood there are some problems, but mostly in Israel- do you see that Sephardi children are ridiculed and not allowed in Ashkenazi school in Israel.
Why do people care so much about whether someone is ashkenzi or Sephardi in Israel? Over there, it seems to be SUPER important. In fact, sometimes it seems that the two factions hate each other. I don’t get it. Between the arabs and secular Jews, do the frum Jews feel that they need to have more hatred in their lives?
There seems to be a lot less hatred for each other in America. Who knows what Hashem wants. But I would guess that he likes that in America- there is a lot more friendliness between the groups as opposed to the hatred displayed in Eretz Yisroel.
Israel inherited a English School System
Rather than A Country has Schools
it’s almost
Schools have a Country
Plus, In smaller countries where people live near/on top of each other , unless you’re righteous, you’re bound to incessantly search for things to put you [ plural] above the hoi polloi
For this ,In America it’s more similar then we would admit ,they just find other many other things
To Be Candid
Above all,
The Earlier Zionists desired assiduously a european state placed unfortunately [ as the arabs have contended] in the mid east
Anyone who happened to be in the way…
The secular/chiloni Israelis, especially the elite, hold Sephardim in contempt. Just like they hold the Torah in contempt r’l. Baruch Hashem the frum Sephardim and frum Ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel get along splendidly together with each other, just as the frum American Sephardim and Ashkenazim in New York, Lakewood, Deal, New Jersey, etc. get along spectacularly with each other. Both in Eretz Yisroel and in America you will find Sephardim in most Ashkenazi yeshivos, especially the top Ashkenazi yeshivos.
Unfortunately the secular/chilonim in Israel, in a feeble attempt to justify and cover up their discriminatory anti-Sephardic policies in the State of Israel, its universities as well as private industry, falsely accuse the frum of Eretz Yisroel of also having some sort of bias against Sephardim. It is laughably false. But they, especially the anti-religious media in Israel, never cease making their false allegations.
Wow I can’t wait to see where this is gonna go.
Anyway, I just want to be Moiche on this sentence: ” Between the arabs and secular Jews, do the frum Jews feel that they need to have more hatred in their lives?” Even if there was sweeping hatred from secular jews – which there is not – this hatred is so not comparable by any means to that of Arabs.
reuventree555 besides that a good post.
It’s not just the divide between Sephardim and Ashkenazim in Israel that is more antagonistic.
The relationship between Orthodox and unobservant Jews is also much more hostile and combative than it is in chu”l.
Even the Chassidim and Misnagdim in E”Y can’t seem to get along, and factions within factions are always coming up with excuses to hang up pashkvillim denouncing each other.
And of course in E”Y, totally separate from any discord between Ashkenazim and Sephardim, we have the unknown-in-Chu”l phenomenon of hafganot (hafgonnehss in popular parlance) and dumpster burning (feh).
I’m not sure what causes it, but this is the one thing about being in E”Y that makes me very uncomfortable.
Could it be the lack of politeness and civil behavior that is just socially accepted as normal there?
Do the hot summers and rainy winters bring out the worst in people?
Do the constant unrest and existential threats from neighbors fray tempers? Or on the contrary do people feel more empowered and secure in their own homeland so they don’t feel a need to behave themselves and act graciously to their fellow citizens?
Do the Yeshivos and Bais Yaakov’s there not feel the need to impress on their young charges the need to behave like B’nei and B’nos Melochim, to speak gently and remember the “Hatznei’a leches” aspect in their behavior to others and among themselves?
Whatever the reason, the average Israeli, regardless of level of observance, is not likely to win the Mr or Miss Congeniality prize.
There are many notable exceptions to the rule, but the general atmosphere doesn’t seem to be one of harmony and good will.
Hypothesis 1: In the US, we’re a minority. Plus we may be more and just grateful to be in Jewish company regardless of who what where.
For the most part, both Sepharadic and Ashkenazic Jewry passes as “Caucasian.” Why blow our cover with details of origin?
Furthermore, the US is broad. If one doesn’t enjoy going to shul with so-and-so, for whatever reason, then depending on the location one may be able to resolve conflicts by opting out, by exploring one’s options.
Said options include but are not limited to, finding another shul, davening at a different time, going anyway and avoiding unnecessary contact, and coping by strengthening relationships with others in the community.
In America, the world is an oyster.
In Israel, there is less geographic and interpersonal distance between Jews.
There is competition for resources in Israel.
In America, this Jewish business-person may have to compete with nonJews and whomever else. Even if it is a Jewish business catering to Jews, having competition may add a buffer to the business as there is enough of a demand for companies to coincide and perhaps support each other.
In Israel, someone who is Jewish can be working for a Jew, working with a Jew, feeling threatened by another more productive Jew, feeling insecure about the practices of another Jew in the workplace or shul or shoochnah.
In Israel there is a culture clash. Absorption adds competition. Or the fear of competition. Xenophobia even though we are all Jewish.
Researched:
In the mid twentieth-century, a wave of wealthy Kurdish Jews flooded the borders. Men who were outstanding businessmen suddenly were faced with the only viable options thanks to culture and language barriers, hard labor, construction. It was depressing for many prestigious men to take such a status hit. Ashkenazim and the earlier settlers looked at their fine cloths with ridicule. Their wives had an easier time assimilating.
Anyway… point is that resentment festered. Intergenerationally. This happens. Unfortunately.
When Israelis Moshe and Ovadia don’t get along with each other, then maybe their children feel the rift. It may only be implicit. They may only just prefer to hang out with Ashkenazim or Sepharadim accordingly, reinforced by limited positive exposure to the other.
Instead of having space to step back and get over or cope with differences, close proximity may escalate tensions.
In order to feel safe and secure, Ashkenazim and Sepharadim created mental barriers to confirm their group’s rightful belonging and affirm their group’s beliefs.
Also… both lived under oppression:
Ashkenazim most recently under prodominently Christian rulers and nobility.
Sepharadim (including Mizrachim, which are separate but often lumped into the Sepharadim group), lived under Islamic control and rulers.
They had to battle in unique ways to earn the privilege to live Jewishly.
Whether it was being close to the nobility like Court Jews, and relying on that political connection under Christian nobles, or by being invaluable merchants and confidents to Islamic rulers (so much so that even Muslims with pull looked the other way when seeing such a wealthy Jew riding a donkey), each group earned its place by working up in context with its culture.
Now comes Israel where being Jewish is no longer the most identifying factor. Maybe the OP is referring to the friction. Adaptations to the forces of nature. Human. And more than human at play. Tectonic plates.
For the record, I’m a mutt, both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi.
You go by your father (and his father), until you go by your husband, so you’re always only one or the other.
Joseph,
until it comes to shidduchim
Of course Ashkenaz and Sephard are not the only groups. Some fall into neither category. Teimanim are not Sephardim. Italkim are not Ashkenazim. etc.
Was Dovid haMelech a Sephardic or Ashkenaz?
In theory yes.
However we went to the shul where my parents felt most comfortable and accepted.
That’s also assuming that there was an available shul in the vicinity that followed in my father’s lineage.
When it comes to shidduchim, I hope whoever he is is okay with me keeping my kitniyot.
We can thank the printing press for dividing us up by Ashkenazi and Sephardi.
Before that there was great variation in siddurim and prayers. In fact, each shul often had common prayers painted directly on the walls for men and women to read from their sections.
Pages of prayers and siddurim otherwise had to be handwritten copies that only the most wealthy could afford.
When Jews started using the printing press, lyrics and styles were consolidated with a generalized order and format. Consequently, community nuances were lost.
A paradigm shift…
Jewish liturgy and ritual practice shifted towards standardization.
lb: An Ashkenazi is forbidden to allow his wife to eat kitniyos.
Joseph: In that case giving up kitniyos during Pesach would be an honor.
Joseph: “The secular/chiloni Israelis, especially the elite, hold Sephardim in contempt. Just like they hold the Torah in contempt r’l. Baruch Hashem the frum Sephardim and frum Ashkenazim in Eretz Yisroel get along splendidly together with each other, just as the frum American Sephardim and Ashkenazim in New York, Lakewood, Deal, New Jersey, etc. get along spectacularly with each other. Both in Eretz Yisroel and in America you will find Sephardim in most Ashkenazi yeshivos, especially the top Ashkenazi yeshivos.
Unfortunately the secular/chilonim in Israel, in a feeble attempt to justify and cover up their discriminatory anti-Sephardic policies in the State of Israel, its universities as well as private industry, falsely accuse the frum of Eretz Yisroel of also having some sort of bias against Sephardim. It is laughably false. But they, especially the anti-religious media in Israel, never cease making their false allegations.”
Shameless lies and ridiculus delusiuons. I could refute every word of this cheap propaganda in two seconds with facts nobody in E”Y would deny. I leave it to the readers to check out the facts (not opinions) and I promise it won’t be hard.
Until today Joseph I had a lot of criticism for you, but I didn’t hold you for a lier. From now on I won’t believe a word that comes out of your mouth.
The frightening part is that you believe you’re obligated by the torah to distort reality so it fits what you think the world is supposed to look like (I.E. everything chareidi is perfect) Just goes to show you the amount of stupidity that can be done “Leshem Shomaim”.
Joseph, I wish your Polyyanna view of the sefardim/ashkanazim relationship among the frum in EY would be true. In American, I think discrimination is less an issue because the sefardi population is smaller, so it melts into the majority without being threatening. In EY, it is very much present, unfortunately. I can’t understand why an otherwise wonderful community full of chesed still feels the need to categorize. but it happens. There is very little intermarriage between frum sefardim and ashkenazim, unlike among the chilonim. Yeshivos, and some neighborhoods as well, take in sefardim only to fill a quota. there are some sefardim who change their last names so they will have less discrimination (ie get their kids into ashkenazi yeshivos). To be dan l’kaf zechus, it may be because it is important to preserve individual communities’ mesora, so that to some degree there will always be differences, in a positive way. But we need a way to preserve people’s uniqueness and still respect each other for being different.
With the chilonim, the army and then university act as an equalizer, and everyone comes out the same in the end, which is why I believe there is actually less discrimination. Yes, the State and the ruling European elite showed great disdain for the immigrants from N Africa and Mid-Eastern countries, and they were treated very poorly, to put it mildly. But once they integrated, gave up their “antiquated” customs and behaviors, and became “Israeli”, a lot of that discrimination disappeared. For example, at my workplace, there are highly educated chiloni sefardim and ashkenazim getting along just fine, plenty of mixed marriages as well, generating no raised eyebrows. I don’t know if it is representative of all of Israel, but things have improved a lot since the early days of statehood in the secular population.
Let me preface this by saying I am chareidi, ashkenazi, and live in israel. We have friends who are sephardi of all types and nationalities. My kids go to school with many lovely sephardi children from beautiful sefardi families.
However, there is a type of person who can be ashkenazi or sephardi, that exhibits a type of negative behavior which is referred to as being ‘sefardi’ (or worse). That type of behavior is not limited to sephardim. Americans will have a hard time understanding this if they haven’t experienced it themselves.
“then university act as an equalizer”
Who controls who gets accepted?
Have the stats?
‘ But once they integrated, gave up their “antiquated” customs and behaviors, and became “Israeli”, ‘
In a word, they would have to give give away their culture ,conform to whatever yours’ is for this decade
Talk about a pot calling a kettle black
Do you only accept african americans who wear slacks and vests,and say”yes m’am” and “sir”?
The early Zionists changed their names, changed their pronunciation, purposely killed Yiddish, and tried to establish Israel is an un-Western culture in a lot of ways; ever notice how most of the restaurants in Israel are serving Middle Eastern food when the country was founded by Europeans? The myth of Ashkenazi elitism among the early Zionists needs to stop. They didn’t just hate traditional Sphardi culture, they hated their own culture too. Just like all socialists, self loathers.
As to the OP’s question, America is like 95% Ashkenaz, so it’s not really a fair comparison.
Winnie, sounds like you really love the chilonim, don’t you?
Neville, not sure if that was a sarcastic comment. I work with chilonim and have a glimpse at their lives that chareidim don’t normally have. They may be far from Torah, some are even anti-Torah, but they also have their good points. They are yidden too, with yiddishe neshamos, and the spark comes out even if it is buried. They have strong family values- most are in their late twenties/early thirties and married with 2-3 kids, (you would not find this in an American secular work place). And they are much more accepting of other people, probably a little too accepting actually (ok, except maybe chareidim..) I really do not see the anti-sefardi attitude among them that I see among Israeli chareidim.
Time for truth-
I don’t have stats on university acceptance, I assume it is merit based. It is possible that certain sefardim come from under-privileged homes/schools and are less qualified and don’t get into university. Don’t know. The sefardim at my work place, are, like the ashkenazim, all bright and highly educated. But even if university acceptance is skewed, you still have the other equalizing factor- the army -which takes sefardim and ashkenazim alike.
I am not sure I understand you comments, it seems that you did not understood mine. I was giving my interpretation of the chiloni attitude past and present, not my opinions about what is the right thing to do. I was discussing how early European Zionists forced the sefardim to give up their culture/religion (not something that I was promoting or applauding, obviously (note my use of “”) just stating that it happened). And how racism is less of an issue now among chilonim because that policy more or less worked- unlike in the chareidi world, the differences between ashkenazim and sefardim of the current generation are minimal, and so there is no problem getting along with people who are more like you.
81 Percent Of Israelis Living In Poverty Believe They Will Always Be Poor
Person1,
while joseph is prone to exaggeration ,you ought to spend some days in a row in Kiryat Malachi or Afula
While it is getting gradually better,
Are you in a lala land of your own?
It was mostly sarcastic. But, I do object to you talking like more intermarriage between Sphards and Ashkenazim is a strong point. If people want unity of minhagim when they’re raising children, I see no problem. And, almost everyone agrees that it’s not a problem when Sphardim do it do preserve their customs; it’s only when Ashkenazim have the same opinion that people get up in arms. Double standard.
Neville, I personally agree that it is important to preserve mesora, which is harder when there are mixed marriages and everyone goes to the same schools and learns the same things in the same way.
But there is an attitude that bothers me: when a frum ashkenazi gets engaged to a sefardi, even in the US, everyone has to comment about it and it’s not because they are worried about how the mesora might get messed up. I know of people who will avoid shidduchim with someone whose last names sounds sefardi, even if they are not. And there is a certain derogatory word for sefardim that is unfortunately bandied about a bit too much.
You are right that there is a double standard though. It is considered discriminatory when an Ashkenazi yeshiva does not accept a sefardi student, yet no one seems to notice that the sefardi who is begging to get into the ashkenazi yeshiva is actually discriminating against the sefardi yeshivos, implying that they are not good enough.
WinnieThePooh absolutely +1 for everything you wrote on this thread.
One comment: “It is considered discriminatory when an Ashkenazi yeshiva does not accept a sefardi student, yet no one seems to notice that the sefardi who is begging to get into the ashkenazi yeshiva is actually discriminating against the sefardi yeshivos, implying that they are not good enough.”
Both are problamatic and both are much talked about.
It is Time for Truth I don’t understand. What does being poor have to do with the subject?
person1- thanks for the vote of confidence.
“sefardi who is begging to get into the ashkenazi yeshiva is actually discriminating against the sefardi yeshivos, implying that they are not good enough.” (WTP)
That is a projection.
Maybe the child is fatherless cv”s and his mother is Ashkenazi.
Maybe the Sephardic school is too far and Ashkenazi is better than public school. Home schooling is not an option here.
Even if the Sephardic schools are not up to par, that doesn’t mean that the student who is Sephardic is discriminating against Sephardim by applying to an Ashkenazi school.
Is that not like saying that sending an inner city child who happens to be African American to a suburban school that is predominantly Caucasian is discriminating against African Americans?
How does that even make sense? Perhaps the parents are sending their children to schools based on the reality of what the school offers compared to the other options.
Depending on their options and availability of resources, parents evaluate schools based on numerous criterions.
Factors that affect why someone chooses a particular school for their child:
*Tuition, including costs for additional children after the first tuition
*Distance, location, transportation options.
*Religious values, hashkafah, Zionist stance
*Socioeconomic standing of population and alumni
*Reputation, includes educators and how the school disciplines and responds to complants
*Substance use policies
*Quality of educators, their educational backgrounds, degrees, experience
*Facilities, condition of classrooms, technology
*After school and before school care, options for parents who work longer hours.
*Nurses and medical assistance on staff for acute illnesses, and/or to assist students with chronic health issues
*Proportion of students who go on to complete higher education, university, and/or yeshiva
*Handicap accessibility
*Disability accommodations
*Special needs education services
*ESOL programs
*Inclusion of secular subjects
*Diversity of student body
*Inclusion of parental input and involvement in classroom affairs
*Multimedia technology, including computer permissions and typing homework assignments
*Judgment of parents, protocols, which includes whether or not parents are allowed to have smartphones, Internet access at home, and standards of Yiddishkeit
*Parental biases
*Community biases
*Single sex classrooms vs. Coed
*Emotional feeling when they visit or gut reactions
*Who they want their child to marry and what school will set their child up best based on what they can afford
*Hashem’s Will, and their prayers to be guided accordingly
Who lives in a bubble? Sephardi and Adhkenazi parents still love their children and want to give them the best. Choosing one school over another does not necessarily mean they are rejecting the other. Sometimes one is a better fit for the moment and their needs.
You have to understand there’s a big difference between sfardim in Israel and in the US. I’m not gonna go into details but ashkenazim in Israel know that and usually have no problem accepting american sfardim into their schools
Neville,
1. Good riddance to Yiddish! It is no more than an a dialect of Alemannic German. In fact, I have a friend whose wife is from Switzerland. She said that she can understand Yiddish if the person speaks slowly.
2. Not all Ashkenazic names are worth keeping. If someone could not pay a high enough bribe he received a derogatory name. For example, “Krumbein” means “Cramp”. Some names were nice in their original places but not in new places. For example, “Fink” is often a name of levi’im because it means “finch”. As the finch is a songbird it came to mean I squealer in English.
3. Actually, the Jewish settlement was found by Sephardim. Observant Ashkenazim who came here also adopted many of their customs, especially beingthat in many cases the Gra and Chassidic leaders agreed with the Bet Yosef against the Rema. For example, not wearing tefillin during Chol HaMoed and ducahaning every day (at least outside the Galil – there for some reason they only duchan on Shabbat Musaf).
4. I try to love all of Hashem’s creations and especially Jews.
Hock, please go into details. I’m unaware of your point.
What is Litvish? Or Lithuanian Jewry? Or Litvak?
I thought that they were Chareidi Jews that came from Lithuania (dunno if Litvish is from another place or also Lithuania).
Just read something that says that they are different from Chassidic Jews. The opposite approach to Torah (controversial to word as such… how else do I say it?).
So are there Chassidic Sephardim, and Litvish Sepharadim too?
There are Sephardic Chareidim.
Oh Latvia
Ummm hello to self… I guess I am talking about Yeshivish. Vs. Chassidish.
There must be Yeshivish Sepharadim and Chassidish Sepharadim.
Thanks
Oh Yeshivish or Chassidish aren’t sll or nothing, right?
There is a spectrum.
LB, to break up your conversation with yourself, here’s some terminology:
In general, when someone says Chareidi, they include both Litvish Yeshivish and Chasidish, and of course Sefardim can also be chareidi.
Litvak means someone coming from Lithuania, Litvish is the adjective. It is used to refer to someone who is not chasidish, even if he doesn’t hail from Lithuania. When chasidus started, mainstream Judaism was very much opposed to the movement, and those who fought against the early Chasidim were called Misnagdim (opposers). But now since chasidus in its current form has been accepted as a halachically valid approach to Torah, the term misnagdim no longer has any meaning, so non-chasidim are called litvaks. The Litvish approach is different from the chasidic one in many ways- too long to go into now.
Chasidus was prominent in Eastern Europe- Poland, Galicia, Russia, Hungary but not where Sefardim lived (Mediterranean, Mid-Eastern, North African countries)- so historically sefardim are not chasidim. Those who are (e.g. there are a lot of Sefardi Breslover Na-Nachs) have adopted a culture and minhagim that are not originally their own. Litvish Sefardim is a contradiction in terms, since they both refer to geographic areas. Sefardim can be chareidi, yeshivish, modern, traditional (mesorati) or anything else.
LB- about school choice. From your post, I don’t think you understand the chareidi yeshiva system in Israel.
I am talking about sefardim trying to get into ashkenazi Yeshivos anad chadarim. This is not one or two individuals with extenuating circumstances (such as special needs, handicap accessibility, remedial education etc), but a widespread phenomenon. To the point where the sefardi leaders send there kids to these yeshivos (and have no problem getting in).
Most of the factors that you mentioned do not apply to the chareidi cheder and yeshiva system (boys only, minimal or no secular subjects, expected to stay within the yeshiva system, no internet use policies), so they are not a part of the consideration of where to send the kid. I am talking about when there are decent sefardi yeshiva options within the neighborhood, and still they prefer the ashkenazi schools. Tuition is minimal in all chadarim compared to the US, should be similar whether sefardi or ashkenazi, similar schedules/hours and will have similar hashkafos except for the obvious difference that one will stress sefardi halacha/minhagim/style of learning and davening and the other ashkenazi. Factors that will differ from cheder to cheder would be quality of educators, discipline policies, facilities, but again being sefardi or ashkenazi should not affect these factors. So it boils down to parental bias, community bias and who they want their kid to marry.
(WinnieThePooh +1) x 2!
oh, LB, thanks, I’m blushing…
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