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From the Agudah’s statement:
We join with the hundreds of thousands of Jews who gathered in the streets of Yerushalayim last week to pour out their hearts in tefillah, and to express their anguish and protest regarding this proposed new law.
I demand that YWN send an apology letter to the Jewish Press.
V’Nohapoch Hu.
GAW – Why apologize to the Jewish Press, why not send a scathing letter to the Aguda!?
Not following…
Do you care to clarify, gav-a-w, what/where was the shocking headline?
And why is anyone apologizing?
Agudah is right. The only thing is maybe they admit they goofed for the last few generations in accept zionist money and building up the state (considering Agudah could probably have derailed the zionists in 1948 if they insisted on an American trusteeship for Palestine – they agreed to support the zionists in return for promises that have now been broken).
The Jewish Press should be seen as having engaged in Avodah Zarah by making worship of the Medinah into its new Torah.
For the first time I AM TOTALLY WITH AGUDAH ON THIS ONE!
As far as Jewish Press is concerned. The paper is underground! No one buys it, and now they’ll lose the couple readers they had!
For what?
Golfer, I’m not following either, but he’s referring to this:
I think GAW refers to a certain Jewish Press headline that was pretty outrageous. I saw it today, but don’t remember the wording.
As a result, I’m pretty much writing off the Jewish Press. I don’t plan to ever buy it again.
Meh. No names or political parties were mentioned. A private person wrote a heartfelt op-ed, with a slight inaccuracy, against a disgusting, hate filled one in the JP. No need for an apology from YWN to that rag.
There’s not much I can do though; I can’t double not-buy it.
I see.
That was really a shocking headline.
The only question I have now is-
The story about a Gadol being asked about bringing the Jewish Press into the restroom, did that happen with Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky ZT”L or with the previous Gerrer Rebbe ZT”L ??
Please the JP has long ago sold out to Yesh Atid.
I remember when they had on of Lipman’s foolish articles, where he wrote how he thinks the Yeshivos should change the way to learn. It was stupid thought then, and indicative as to his stance now. Which is undeniably to decrease limud hatorah.
He is an evil snake and the JP is one of his forked tongues.
The JP is pretty much in no mans land back in the day they were it there were no other weekly newspapers in english, when the frum weeklys came out they lost chareidi’s in droves now they are too left for chareidi’s and too right for those who read the Jewish Week leaving them again in no mans land their future is not bright.
AT the risk of being censored, can I ask any of those who wax so indignant about the headline: pray tell me, if the headline is not true, when was the last time the chareidim ever thanked the soldiers for protecting them? let’s assume that the headline is a blatant lie, where is the minuscule hakoras hatov to those who shed their blood on the chareidim’s behalf? Where was there a modicum a respect at any of the asifas for the Israeli soldiers?
mi sheberach ,anyone?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/editorial/218981/analysis-on-the-atzeres-tefillah-in-manhattan.html (first paragraph)
These tefilla gatherings/rallies were not the place for it.
That was the Jewish Press headline.
They are as bad as the NY Post when they did a front page photo of Menachem Stark and asked “who DIDN’T want him dead?”
Reshoyim.
DaasYochid: I have too much respect for your lomdus to call you out, but you cannot be serious,can you??? Apart from the fact that the blogs you directed us to was an editorial by an individual and posters in the coffee room (for heaven’s sake!)that are not exactly the opinion of the chareidi leadership, but, pray tell ,why ISN’T IT the place for such demonstrations? Can’t you see how different the asifas would have sounded and looked to the neutral observer if there would have been recognition to the soldiers and some sign of thanks given? It would have brought many of the moderate chareidim (such as me) to realize that the asifas are not just israel-bashing and army-bashing but a force for good. sorry, but I totally disagree with you.
“The shocking headline”?
first off – im not at all surprised.
second – their intention was to arouse Hatred, and it seems by the looks of things, it was a HUGE success!
mybrother: Would you have the same reaction to the Yated’s infamous articles or is your indignation selective and only directed against the peopel that you support?
I could say the same thing about YWN’s “most modern orthodox don’t daven with a minyan” headline.
Both of them are just pretty idiotic. (The Jewish Press’s is also not well written and quite puerile. I’d guess that an intern or somebody probably wrote it- not professional at all.)
@rabbiofberlin – I’m not sure what infamous articles you are referring to. But i feel that any article, no matter the agenda its trying to push, if its sole purpose is to instill hatred it should be disregarded.
For example if a couple is arguing and if one of them says something hurtful out of their uncontrolled emotion, do u think it makes sense to create a whole new argument off the hurtful statement?
personally i think it would be better to disregard it and stick to the issues at hand.
and if you believe that “they” have no heart and no interest in resolving the issue, then all the more so it should be ignored.
i see your previous post now, u make a very good point. it would’ve made a world of difference if there would’ve been some appreciation for the soldiers by the Asifa.
It would’ve been intelligent, classy, respectful and possibly even “calm the storm down” by showing some common ground.
oh well..
the level of rhetoric and the they’re wrong so therefore we must be right attitudes are getting on my nerves (not referring to specific posters here). why aren’t people discussing how we have to have a cheshbon hanefesh to figure out why this is happening as opposed to expending all of their energy fighting about it especially when it is so obvious that they are just making things worse?
why aren’t people discussing how we have to have a cheshbon hanefesh to figure out why this is happening
I think people are, but on this forum, there are different opinions as to whether what is happening is good or bad. I don’t think it’s as common to make a cheshbon hanefesh when good things are happening as when bad things are happening.
The gedolim in EY have said that we need to be mechazek ourselves in limud haTorah. I think we all have an imperative to make a cheshbon hanefesh, and we can certainly use improvement in our dedication to keeping and learning the Torah.
mybrother:
The atzeres tefillah was not about the individual soldiers who are in the IDF. It was about the Zionists forcing the observant Jews there to allow the Zionists to either shmad them in the IDF or else face crimminal sanctions.
The financial sanctions that the Zionists have imposed on the Chareidim, in the form of cruelly denying them permission to work, is one level of outrage. Making them criminals is far worse.
This is why everyone davened to Hashem: please help our brethren in E”Y keep their true faith and do not let the Zionists shmad them, too. Zionism is shmad, and a simple survey of history shows how the Zionists have shmaded many Jews in the past since even before 1948.
writersoul: I don’t think you could have said the same thing about the “most modern orthodox don’t daven with a minyan” headline. That headline merely presented a synopsis of the study, which was true.
Someone at the Jewish Press got fired over publishing that, apparently.
HaKatan:
i understand that the Asifa wasn’t about the soldiers but rather about the “state” that is seemingly trying to corrupt & destroy the chareidi lifestyle.
But i feel if were going to resolve the argument, making protests and demonstrations how wrong they are is NOT going to do it. In human relations, CRITICISM is NOT how you solve arguments, in fact, it has the OPPOSITE effect, it just makes people more determined to stick to their guns.
There are MANY techniques to resolve arguments, there are many books in the subject. 1a the many tips to resolve n argument is to find and focus on common ground. it eases your opponents intensity to think more logically because they dont feel like your out to prove them wrong.
the technique works in marriage too. ITS VERY HARD TO DO in a argument but if your able to thank the your spouse SINCERELY for what they do, and then present your side, and come from a place of love instead of criticism. ohhhh it can work wonders !!
pba: and what of the JP article? If you’re just going by what is the absolute truth, was it so bad?
The fact is that the atzeres was about the draft bill. The chareidim don’t want to serve in the army – so is it a lie to say “so only other Jews die in war”?
The truth is that some things are better off unsaid, or said very delicately – even if they’re 100% true. If the JP wanted to write about the atzeres, it should have been phrased very differently. The same thing with the YWN article about the study.
pba: and what of the JP article? If you’re just going by what is the absolute truth, was it so bad?
The fact is that the atzeres was about the draft bill. The chareidim don’t want to serve in the army – so is it a lie to say “so only other Jews die in war”?
Yes, that was a lie. It imputed the intention as “so only other Jews die in war”.
Do you not see a difference there?
The equivalent would have been if YWN’s headline had read:
“Most Modern Orthodox Jews don’t daven with a minyan because they don’t care about Hashem or the mitzvos.”
With a story reading:
“In a recent study released, it was proven again that Modern Orthodox Jews are not really Orthodox, and could care less about keeping the Torah. While it is fact that more than half of them live within 18 minutes of a shul, a majority declared that they do not attend shachris on a regular basis. They wake up and eat a leisurely breakfast with one message: Torah and Mitzvos are for old fashioned chareidim. What was even more astonishing was their complete honesty regarding the bankruptcy of their entire school of faith and study.”
Yeah, that’s how the YWN article would have read if Yori Yanover had written it.
GAW: everyone becomes frum.
Of course he would agree. He’d just define the term differently. The devil is in the details.
But, I’d imagine he wouldn’t use the term chareidi, even if he thinks that the only way to be shomer torah umitzvos is to be chareidi. For the same reason I didn’t say I’d hope them to all become dati or chareidi.
Because not every person who identifies as chareidi and is identifiable thereas is a shomer torah umitzvos, and the same is true of dati. (But this much I know, the people who aren’t identifiable as either, and don’t identify as either, are definitely not shomer torah umitzvos.)
When I read the JP article, I was so upset that a person could write such a thing, that I couldn’t even think of an articulate way to rebut it. Until Popa’s satire, which is quite well done:
The equivalent would have been if YWN’s headline had read:
“Most Modern Orthodox Jews don’t daven with a minyan because they don’t care about Hashem or the mitzvos.”
With a story reading:
“In a recent study released, it was proven again that Modern Orthodox Jews are not really Orthodox, and could care less about keeping the Torah. While it is fact that more than half of them live within 18 minutes of a shul, a majority declared that they do not attend shachris on a regular basis. They wake up and eat a leisurely breakfast with one message: Torah and Mitzvos are for old fashioned chareidim. What was even more astonishing was their complete honesty regarding the bankruptcy of their entire school of faith and study.”
mybrother:
Again, this was not an attempt to criticize. This was an atzeres tefillah, to daven to Hashem to save our brethren from Zionist shmad.
pba: writersoul: I don’t think you could have said the same thing
about the “most modern orthodox don’t daven with a minyan”
headline. That headline merely presented a synopsis of the
study, which was true.
Sorry, I just don’t think it is.
The data was ambiguous, the categories were undefined, and, in general, the whole thing was a mess.
Assuming that this is about Israel (or there would be nothing about “dati le’umi”), either every category is dati le’umi or none is- since no category is called dati le’umi, either the title is just incorrect in that regard or everyone is dati le’umi in the sense that it means religious and Zionist.
The only possible way that this is about all dati le’umi is if you total all the responses together, which absolutely reaches over 50% (most). If you only count “dati lite,” that’s a disservice to many dati le’umi people.
Either way, technically, both are based on fact in some form (the Jewish Press article is about the whole draft crisis, even if the motives were basically misrepresented, and the YWN was based on some form of statistics gathered). While the Jewish Press article was definitely much more overtly nasty, both articles displayed an element of sinas chinam; the Jewish Press could have reported on such a major news story in a more tasteful way and YWN didn’t need to report that article at all- there is no tachlis whatsoever.
GAW:
End result is Mashiach. If your question is what interim solution would be preferable to the State of Israel then I would say a non-Jewish government that respects our religion and keeps our brethren there safe.
Of course, as PBA wrote, I would certainly hope that all the Jews there (including the many Jews and their children who were and are shmaded by Zionism and the State of Israel) return to Hashem and His Torah(without grafting it to Zionism of course).
I read the article. It was horrible, disgusting, infuriating, insulting. But to say it was a lie is a lie. His word choice may have exaggerated the reality but nothing he said was false. A large part of his complaint could be rectified if leaders would speak out against the individuals who make a chillul Hashem time and again. When individuals continuously do the same thing and no one condemns it, to an outsider it seems as if it is promoted in that community.
At the end of the day, everyone hates everyone. The Jewish Press hates chareidim, ywn hates the modern orthodox and everyone hates breslav. I wait for mashiach everyday but if what I learned in kindergarten is true, that mashiach can only come when there’s achdus, maybe I should stop holding my breath.
lovely brocha HaKatan. do you wish the same for the Jews and their children who were and are shmaded by their rabbeim, school systems, molesters and hypocrisy the same beautiful brocha? and your brocha to the adults responsible? Or do they not exist?
writer: Maybe you have a good tayna against that article, and maybe you don’t. And we can discuss it; but it doesn’t belong juxtaposed with this. You can’t equate every wrong article.
I am very disappointed in the posts by DaMoshe and interjection.
For two posters, who are usually the strongest opponents of sinas chinom, to agree that the motivation for those who refuse to serve in the military is “so only other Jews die in war” and because “everyone else is welcome to get themselves killed”, is disgusting, and hopefully out of character.
Can’t we agree that thinking and espousing that charedim couldn’t care less about other Jewish lives is itself a horrible sheker and based on nothing but sinas chinom?
I’m curious what your reactions would be if someone would suggest that the reason the D’L want charedim to be drafted is so that they’ll die in war. Would you say it’s true (with a disclaimer that it should have been said a bit nicer)?)
I’m curious what your reactions would be if someone would suggest that the reason the D’L want charedim to be drafted is so that they’ll die in war. Would you say it’s true (with a disclaimer that it should have been said a bit nicer)?)
that’s plain ridiculous. The chereidim are being asked to JOIN them at the front, not go out there themselves.
that’s plain ridiculous. The chereidim are being asked to JOIN them at the front, not go out there themselves.
So they should all die? Does that make you happier?
Or what if I told you that if charedim would go to the front they would replace non charedim, and this is all a devious plan to kill them off that way? Does that make any more sense to you, and would that be true?
DaasYochid: I never said that was their motivation. I just recognize that it is a byproduct of the chareidim refusing to serve. It’s also the biggest sore point to non-frum Jews in Israel – why should my son put his life in danger for you, but your son refuses to do the same for me? But I don’t think that’s the motivation for the chareidim.
Excuse me ..but as shocking as the headline was..the truth is you want to sit in a safe environment [yeshiva, kollel] while my 2 grandsons and thousand of other people’s sons and grandsons meet the enemy with their body on the battlefield.
My grandson’s are both Torah students but they are feel the obligation to serve our country with their body.
My family and I live in the south, and right now rockets are raining on our head…. we have 15 seconds to go for safety when the siren wails… I pray that Hashem protects each and every chayal who is out there fighting for my safety and your safety.
Don’t you think you should lend a hand also…
Shabbat Shalom
Purim Sameach
DaMoshe,
The fact is that the atzeres was about the draft bill. The chareidim don’t want to serve in the army – so is it a lie to say “so only other Jews die in war”?
It’s a fallacious, libelous and speculative conclusion. Suppose somebody offered me a piece of cheese and I said, “no, thanks.” Given no additional data, is it reasonable for that person to assume that I don’t like cheese, or don’t trust their kashrus, or kill kittens? Perhaps I love cheese, but I just finished off a steak sandwich 20 minutes ago!
Chareidim have provided numerous cogent reasons for not wanting to join the Israeli army. You can perhaps debate whether the reasons are reasonable, but to ignore their reasons and accuse them of considering their blood redder than others is simply slander.
@ROB – you wrote, “…when was the last time the chareidim ever thanked the soldiers for protecting them?”
I invite you to buy the book “The Mountain Family” and turn to page 260. (BTW – excellent book! You will not regret buying it!)
No outside links
BTW – while we are at it, when is the last time you went to a Yeshivah and thanked the Avreichim there for protecting Ganz Klal Yisrael with their Limud HaTorah… in either EY or Shmutz L’Aretz (like blood stained Germany)? You do believe that Limud HaTorah protects Klal Yisrael, correct?
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