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Economics – that just the way insurance works: by spreading costs among more people. If only sick people buy insurance then the insurance plan will have to pay a lot, so each participant will have to pay a lot. If many people, including young, healthy people, buy a plan, the plan won’t have to pay as much per participant but all participants still get something of value. The people who get sick get their bills paid, while the people who don’t get sick have the peace of mind of knowing that in case they get sick, they will have their bills paid. Because the overall costs are borne by a larger group, the cost per participant is lower so people who are less likely to need health care are still likely to buy insurance.
Ubitiquin,
1. The point is that socialism destroys medical care just as it destroys everything else. In every country (including Israel) that junked it the economy soared. Just to give one example here, when the phone company was part of the Ministry of Communications it literally took years to get a line. Privatization knocked it down to a couple of weeks and in the main cities even less.
2. The Torah definitely does support capitalism, that is to say, private ownership of the means of production (thus workers’ cooperatives are also a form of capitalism). The ideal of the messianic age is
…וְכִתְּתוּ חַרְבֹתֵיהֶם לְאִתִּים וַחֲנִיתֹתֵיהֶם לְמַזְמֵרוֹת לֹא יִשְׂאוּ גּוֹי אֶל גּוֹי חֶרֶב וְלֹא יִלְמְדוּן עוֹד מִלְחָמָה. וְיָשְׁבוּ אִישׁ תַּחַת גַּפְנוֹ וְתַחַת תְּאֵנָתוֹ וְאֵין מַחֲרִיד כִּי פִי ה’ צְבָאוֹת דִּבֵּר (Micha 4,3-4).
In fact, according to Halacha (unlike, lehavdil, secular law) an employee may waive rights that accrue to him by force of custom. The government in enjoined not to overtax (Nehemia 5:15, Midrash HaGadol Shemot 21 Introduction to parasha, Ple Yoetz “tikkun”, Rav S.R. Hirsch “Horev” 95:604). Some poskim have even ruled that rent control is not binding as dina d’malchuta as it is robbery of property owners enacted by people influenced by communism and socialism (Responsa Havetzelet HaSharon 2 CM 8 d”h v’nira d’harav miTarana and Responsa Maharshag 3, 125). Even those halachot that protect employees can be seen as property protections – the employee has a proprietary interest in his job.There are two separate issues here: how much we should provide for the poor, and how people should obtain healthcare in general.
Avi
“The point is that socialism destroys medical care just as it destroys everything else. ”
I understand your point. however it is incorrect.
you provided 2 examples of socialism destroying healthcare. Your first (ER being used for routine ailments) was exactly backwards as it is an example where “socialism” saves medical care. An important example at that.
your second (wait times for elective procedures) was more valid though not absolute. The reason Canada has longer wait times is an effort to cut cost. If long wait times is a “destruction of health care” (a notion that is debatable) we can spend more than Canada does to cut wait times.
Im not sure how you define “destroys medical care” Life expectancy is lower in the US than all Western countries. In spite of spending more than any of them.
So in summary your point isnt true and you’ve provided one example to counter it and one weak not absolute, example to support it2.
“The Torah definitely does support capitalism…”I provided several examples IF you define capitalism as not allowing for lending with interest, selling real property, competition, making as much profit as the market allows then sure the Torah supports capitalism
One thing’s for sure: We shouldn’t be imitating Singapore.
ubiquitin: Regarding Torah support of Capitalism, true, the Torah does impose limits on Capitalism. Limitations, however, support my position. Those very examples you cite *only* occur under Capitalism.
For examkple, in a true Socialist society there can be no violation of ribbis since there are no private funds available for lending. There is also no need to protect one’s gvul from encroachment by another because there are no private or competing gvulim (enterprises).
In response to my statement “Taxes imposed by a king are paid by the individual” you noted that US taxes are paid by the individual. But, that’s precisely my point; the US economy is based on Capitalism not Socialism.
Finally, I suggested no controversy with regard to essential services (police, fire, sanitation, etc.). I was merely listing services we expect the government to provide (meaning, pay for via taxes). The debate here is what other services belong on that extensive – and expensive – list and to what extent.
Providing food, shelter and healthcare to the indigent are examples of charitable services. My point is that charity is a burden to be borne by each individual, not a government, unless the government is acting as an agent on behalf of its citizens. Otherwise, one could argue that taxpayers have automatically fulfilled their annual maaser obligation. I do not recall any halachic authority making such a claim.
Avi, that statement is simply not true. Any respectable university hires adjunct professors who at minimum have a Master’s degree, and they will only give tenure to professors who have obtained a PhD that are actively publishing their work
Avi, that statement is simply not true.
ColumbiaGrad17, I’ve looked through everything Avi K has said in this thread and I have no idea what statement you’re responding to.
Some people aren’t cut out for college. Those people shouldn’t be pressured to go to college. There are other options.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/fedex-bucherim
bluhbluh
“the Torah does impose limits on Capitalism. Limitations, however, support my position. Those very examples you cite *only* occur under Capitalism.”
I love it! Marx was pro Capitalsim too just he believed that means of production should be owned collectively by the workers.
“in a true Socialist society …”
I never said the Torah was socialist. Just that it opposes (pure) Capitalism.“Finally, I suggested no controversy with regard to essential services…”
I apologize. from the tone of Your paragraph “Sure, one can provide … jails, armies, mail, street lights, paved roads, etc. without regard to ability to pay, age and citizenship. But, someone (or a lot of someones) has to pay for it all.” It sounded to me like you didnt support that. Apologies if I misunderstood. (although In which case I dont understand the point of that paragraph,)“unless the government is acting as an agent on behalf of its citizens”
that is exactly my argumentMeno, I was referring to his statements regarding a degree not being a necessity to become a professor. As it pertains to your comment, of course not everyone is capable of handling the rigors and pressure of college. However, my issue stems from the yeshivos completely disregarding college as an option for their students, and pushing their students towards learning regardless of the student’s specific skill set.
I was referring to his statements regarding a degree not being a necessity to become a professor
He didn’t say that. He said:
Many professions do not require college degrees
DY: The larger the pool of insureds one (usually government/employer) pays for, the lower the price they can negotiate. When insurers have too many “cheap” customers, they try to make more money on the rest.
Insurers also consider private purchasers more of a risk, as working people are generally healthier. So they charge individuals/families higher rates than those in a group.
(Just realized DY’s post was earlier in this thread – so I’m talking about his question to Meno there.)
ChanieE:Economics – that just the way insurance works: by spreading costs among more people. If only sick people buy insurance then the insurance plan will have to pay a lot, so each participant will have to pay a lot. If many people, including young, healthy people, buy a plan, the plan won’t have to pay as much per participant but all participants still get something of value. The people who get sick get their bills paid, while the people who don’t get sick have the peace of mind of knowing that in case they get sick, they will have their bills paid. Because the overall costs are borne by a larger group, the cost per participant is lower so people who are less likely to need health care are still likely to buy insurance.
But it would not be more people. If anything, if the employer is paying the premiums, every employee is being paid for, including the young healthy ones, whereas if it we’re people buying as individuals, many would opt out.
Frum families would also be at risk for much higher insurance rates
Larges families mean more hospital stays for women and kids are always getting sick
Mammele: DY: The larger the pool of insureds one (usually government/employer) pays for, the lower the price they can negotiate. When insurers have too many “cheap” customers, they try to make more money on the rest.
Okay, but she (ChanieE) said there are fewer people, which isn’t the case. As I mentioned, more people are actually insured due to employer benefits, which probably compensates for the lower per person premium.
(Just realized DY’s post was earlier in this thread – so I’m talking about his question to Meno there.)
I hope ChanieE is not too insulted that you mistook her for Meno. (HT GH)
Sorry ChanieE and Meno for my mistake.
Thanks DY for the correction. And GH (Gadol Hadorah?) for the tip.
Ubiquitin,
1. There is a limit to how much one can squeeze from the taxpayers, as Rehavam ben Shlomo discovered. I would first cut costs by putting severe limits on the malpractice suits and awards. According Halacha if someone is certified (מומחה לרבים) he is only liable for gross violation of professional standards.
2. Group insurance is not limited to working people. It can be sold to members of a fraternal organization, for example (and originally, as De Tocqueville notes in Democracy in America this was the norm before the New Deal.
3. As “pure capitalism” simply means that there is only private ownership (except for certain public goods like police) limitations do not make a society non-capitalist.
4. Marx actually wanted a dictatorship of the proletariat and eventual withering away of the state. Capitalism implies a free society. In Marx’s society no one would be allowed to compete with the socialized businesses.
On the other hand if we imitate Singapore we will have cleaner streets.
Avi
1. Im not sure where IVe said otherwise.
And I’m all for tort reform2.. I dont beelive this is related to anything I said
3. not quite. The purest form of Capitalism is “free market Capitalism” Which the Torah strongly opposes.
As mentioned I did not mean the Torah opposes all forms of capitalism Im sorry if It came off that way. (though in my very first comment on thsi subject I said “I am not saying the Torah supports socialism”)4. “In Marx’s society no one would be allowed to compete” Oh you mean like hasagas gevul?
DY – When people are covered through their employers they aren’t buying insurance on the open market. For example, my company offers a couple of different plans through one insurance company. These may or may not be the plans or company I would choose if everything else was equal, but the fact that my employer subsidizes these plans is a big incentive for me to choose one of them over paying full price on the open market.
If instead of paying me with insurance my compensation included “health care money” that I could use to buy insurance of my choosing or put into an HSA (health savings account), I would be shopping on the open market. This would put more people into the general pool because people who are currently covered through their employers would (a) be in the pool (b) with money to pay for insurance.
Obviously there are A LOT of details that need to be addressed and this isn’t the place for a full policy paper, but at a high level, I believe getting people out of employer plans and into the general market is the key to making health insurance work for all Americans.
Ubiquitin,
1. I did not say that you said otherwise. If you agree with me yasher koach.
2. You said that insurance companies prefer group insurance because workers are more likely to be healthy.
3. How does the Torah oppose free market capitalism? It is true that there is the POSSIBILITY of restrictions but they are not mandatory and usually need the approval of an “important person”. For example, rent-seeking is becoming particularly odious in the US. For example (it is being challenged in the courts), LA requires licensing of flower arrangers after they pass a test in which they demonstrate their floral arrangement prowess. Actually, even doctors need not be licensed in Halacha although non-licensed doctors have complete liability in tort.
4. Hasagat gevul is a property protection. Free-market capitalism does not allow theft.
2. “You said that insurance companies prefer group insurance because workers are more likely to be healthy.”
I did not. You have to stop lumping all posts together
3. “How does the Torah oppose free market capitalism? ”
In many ways., ive listed them earlier. The biggest one is forbidding lending with interest. The very “CAPITAL” that is the word capitalism usage is limieted since a big advantage of capital is being allowed to do with it what yo uwant. Which we cannot do. another one is limit on the profit yo ucan make (ona’as maamon)4. “Hasagat gevul is a property protection. Free-market capitalism does not allow theft. ”
Hassagos gevul is alos a restriction on competition see shulchan aruch
Ubiquitin,
3. It only forbids it to/from another Jew in the context of tzedaka (see the SA that this is considered the second highest level). The heter iska was developed because it was never intended to allow someone to do business by freeloading on someone else.
4. In Halacha a person has a proprietary interest in his livelihood.
3. Yes I know that there is a halachic “workaround” that doesn’t change that in opposition to free market capitalism the Torah limits what I can do with my money.
4. Stop hocking ah chainek.
You own a pizza store I decide hey this seems like a good spot to own a pizza store I’m going to open one up next door.
What does free market capitalism say about that?
What does the Torah day about that (generally speaking)?3. Not at all. The halacha differentiates between charity and business loans.
4. You keep trying to put the chainek back up. if the new guy lives in the city or at least pays taxes and does not block the way to the existing store, and certainly if he sells specialty pizzas, it is muttar. While there are some restrictions are simply protections of proprietary rights. See Hasagat Gevul: Economic Competition in Jewish Law by Rabbi Chaim Jachter (on-line).
3. I’m not sure if you are being serious. In case you are let me cclarify.
If I want to borrow money from you so I can start my pizza sstore. It is an issur deoraysa for you to charge me interest. Period.
Yes the rishonim came up with a “workaround” where instead of terming the loan as a loan we call it an investment. But that doesn’t change my point.4. That is quite a lot of “ifs” none of which are present in free market capitalism, where competition is valued for its own sake.
Yes IF I am selling specialty pizzas (in other words I am not actually competing !!!!) Then there are cases where it is not an issur of hasagas devil.5. I’m super curious to hear how you get onaas mamon to fit with free market capitalism
3. Actually it was Hillel and he did not “come up” with anything. That is a Conservative contention. He only activated a possibility that always existed.
4. Once again, capitalism is the system of private ownership of the means of production. Regarding the definition of a free market, see the Wikipedia article, which gives two opinions. An example of socialism would be a government pizza authority – which would probably make lousy pizzas (when they are available) except, of course, for party members. As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm everyone is equal but some are more equal (In Hebrew it is even better:
כולם שווים אבל יש ששווים יותר),5. Onaat mammon is fraud. However, if the seller says that the market price (if there is a market price) is such and such but he charges more (or vice versa) there is no onaah.
3. Are you confusing heter iska with pruzbal (another anti-capitalist idea not pruzbal but the idea that without a pruzbal loans dissolve) ?
4. I lost you. I’m sorry.
I’ll walk you through it slowly please let me know where you get stuck.
A. Hasagas gevul is a restriction on competition (Though yes it doesn’t always apply)
B. Free market capitalism supports unfettered competition
C. The Torah opposes pure free market capitalism.5. Who sets the market price? Hint it isn’t free market
And why do you label it fraud? If I own the only pizza store in town (Thanks to the issur of hasagas gevul and of course my interest free loan I got from you) and a slice of pizza “costs” 1 dollar why can’t I charge you $10 if you want it great if not don’t eat pizzaחַיָּבִים בֵּית דִּין לְהַעֲמִיד מְמֻנִּים עַל הַשְּׁעָרִים שֶׁלֹּא יַרְוִיחַ כָּל אֶחָד מַה שֶּׁיִּרְצֶה, שֶׁאֵין לוֹ לָאָדָם לְהַרְוִיחַ בַּדְּבָרִים שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם חַיֵּי נֶפֶשׁ
Choshen mishpat 231:20
Pure free market capitalism murders the sick and disabled.
There are a number of problems with the opening post, but I will focus on just one.
Whether or not healthcare is a right under US law, under the Torah, healthcare for each person in a coumunity is a responsibility of the whole community. This is the opinion of the Rambam, and I am sorry that I do not have a specific citation for this view. The Torah speaks more of responsibilities and obligations than of rights, and so maybe Obamacare should be recast as the federalization and secularization of the mitzvah of providing healthcare for all. Repeal without replacement would mean death or severe illness for many people. Perhaps the opening poster owes us an explanation for what he would do for all the people whose health would be severely jeopardized by a repeal, or a faulty repeal-and-replace, of Obamacare.
Simple. What Jews have always done until the self-hating Jew Marx created his system. Every Jew gives charity. Do you give? Does the government force you to give? There’s your answer. Pure free market capitalism means you give charity and get schar. Socialism means you give way more than a fifth that is usually assur to give it is spent terribly inefficiently you get no (or little) schar because you gave it as tax. Besides for the terrible injustices when businesses are forced to close due to regulation.
Actually, there is a central authority forcing you to give.
Ubiquitin,
That was said regarding small, closed communities living under hostile regimes that had no concept of the rule of law and extremely restrictive tariffs . In such a society there was no choice. Today we live in a global village with free trade agreements (BTW,Sefer Chassidim says about restrictions of trade “the land was filled with hamas”) and substitutes for everything. I, in fact, know people (including myself), who do not eat bread at all (almost) on weekdays.
I would like to suggest that hey way to carry out this halacha in our time is to deregulate the economy and allow the Invisible Hand (of Hashem) to do its work.
Avi
Interesting do you have a source for that?
Though Im curious. Which halcahos only applied then?
Issur to lend with ribis (without a heter iska which isnt lending)?
Issur hasagas gevul?
Issur of onaas maamon?
The inability ot sell land long term?
KAshrus?
Tefilin?what other halachos only apply in small closed communities?
huju -“Repeal without replacement would mean death or severe illness for many people. Perhaps the opening poster owes us an explanation for what he would do for all the people whose health would be severely jeopardized by a repeal, or a faulty repeal-and-replace, of Obamacare.”
You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process. Repealing right away would push e/o to come up with a solution. Obamacare is a failure, and it needs to be replaced ASAP!
I doubt Trump has a thought process.
Ubitquin,
You truncated the halacha in the SA. It says “necessary for life” (שאין לו לאדם להרויח בדברים שיש בהם חיי נפש). Today as is well known that nothing is in that category as everything has substitutes. I personally have a friend whose wife never eats bread or matza except at the seder. I also do not eat bread on weekdays except for seudot mitzva (e.g. a siyum). I also know a bit about Jewish and general history and economics. Free enterprise results in lower prices. When I was in college forty-five years ago my father z”l bought me a simple four-function calculator for $85. Today, that same calculator costs $8.99 (I just checked) – despite the CPI is about 5.8 times higher. On the other hand, price controls always cause shortages and black markets – even where the latter was punishable by death. In Israel there was rational just after the State was established – and almost everyone was involved in the black market. Finally it had to be repealed.
The issur of ribbit is also mostly as inapplicable today as carrying on Shabbat. Every financial institution in Israel has a heter iska (and really it is not certain that a corporation needs one) just as every community (except for one moshav that has a large Karaite population) has an eruv. The issur of ribbit is in YOreh Deah and not Choshen Mishpat for a reason.
“You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process”
Lol!
Please help me understand Trump’s thought process. He has described the House’s plan as both a “great plan” that would provide “fantastic healthcare” and “mean”
(or is it both)He has repeatedly stated he believes in universl healthcare
for example in his book in 2002 “We must have universal health care. Just imagine the improved quality of life for our society as a whole,” he wrote, adding: “The Canadian-style, single-payer system in which all payments for medical care are made to a single agency (as opposed to the large number of HMOs and insurance companies with their diverse rules, claim forms and deductibles) … helps Canadians live longer and healthier than Americans.””He has praised Australia’s healthcare as recently as May of this year
Is this part of his thought process as well?thanks
Of course I truncated he shulchan aruch. IT is a long book
(though i did mention seyesh bahem chayei nefesh)the discussion isnt about today vs yesterday.
The discussion is whether the Torah supports Free market capitalism.
Of severla examples I gave one of them is athe above mentioned halacha that beis din makes sure people dont overcharge (this is but one specific din in onaas maamon the very existence of which is diametricly opposed to free market capitalism).
So even if you make the bizzare argument that today everything has substitutes (I’ll tell that to the next meshulach who says he cant put bread on his table, “so what just find a substitute” maybe cake?)
my point STILL stands, as in a world with no substitutes or an item that is vital say I control all the water in town,I am limited how much profit I can make.
Halachicly this limit isnt determined by the free market but by halacha/the torah yes or no?“Free enterprise results in lower prices.”
could be. Sadly the Torah doesnt feel that way.“The issur of ribbit is also mostly as inapplicable today as carrying on Shabbat. ”
I’m sorry bt that sounds like kefira. There is an issur deoraysa to lend with ribis and to carry on Shabbos in a reshus harabim. IT is important to me that you know that.
If you want to thin out your shulchan aruch and get rid of these halachos so you have less to learn, ok but they apply 100% completely and always will. This is one of the ikarei emuna.Again, yes in modern societies it isnt practical to not lend with interest, . So the Rishonim (not Hile as mentionedl) came up with heter iska where it is viewed as an investment and not a loan.
however lending with ribbis is 100% assur and always will be. It is important to me that you understand that.
In other words the Torah put a limit on how I can profit from my own money,
This too is in diametric opposition to capitalism.Avi
BTW your impressive knwoledge of “Jewish and general history and economics,” aside which system works better is not at all relevent to what the Torah supports and opposes.
Also I dont understand your calculator example. ddi your father the calcuator in a non-free enterprise society, or one that followed the Torah and now your are comparing it ot a cheaper price in a pure-free market scoiety? otherwise what does it have to do with anything?On the other hand I’l give you an example that while not relevant to our discussion (of hwo the Torah opposes pure free market capitalism), is relevant to the original discussion about health care
Augmentin is an antibiotic. one pill in the US costs 19 cents. In Belgium the very same pill costs about half a cent (you read that correctly)
Care to guess why?Ubiq -“He has repeatedly stated he believes in universl healthcare
for example in his book in 2002 “We must have universal health care. Just imagine the improved quality of life for our society as a whole,” he wrote, adding: “The Canadian-style, single-payer system in which all payments for medical care are made to a single agency (as opposed to the large number of HMOs and insurance companies with their diverse rules, claim forms and deductibles) … helps Canadians live longer and healthier than Americans”He’s right in the way socialist medicine works. It’s better for the economy.
But he’s wrong why they live longer!
It’s because of nutrition & exercise. The US has the best medical care, in spite of the DemonCrats trying to destroy it.“He’s right in the way socialist medicine works.”
Except that wasnt my question.
Here it is again:You indicated that Trump has a “thought process” on health care (exact quote: “You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process.”) My question is what is his view? Does he view the house’s AHCA (now dead) or does he view it as mean? Or both? (ie thinks it s”fantastic” although “mean”
does he believe a universal health care system with a single payer is a good form of health care like he has stated repeatedly over the years (and as recently as MAy 17′) ?
Thanks
As an aside you said:””The US has the best medical care,”
In what way?
Ubiq -““You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process.”) My question is what is his view? Does he view the house’s AHCA (now dead) or does he view it as mean? Or both? (ie thinks it s”fantastic” although “mean””
At this point he‘ll sign anything that will replace Obamacare.
“does he believe a universal health care system with a single payer is a good form of health care like he has stated repeatedly over the years (and as recently as MAy 17′) ?”
I think he does!
“As an aside you said:””The US has the best medical care,”
In what way?”
In treatment.“At this point he‘ll sign anything that will replace Obamacare.”
Got it! So you were using the term “thought process” veeeeeeeeeeery loosely, fair enough.
“The US has the best medical care,…In treatment.”
My sincerest apologies. for some reason I thought you had a real reason I’m not sure what I was thinking.
I know, I know for 75 zillion dollars you will elaborate what “treatment” you are referring to.
Its fine, Moichel toives.Ubiquitin
1. My father z”l bought the calculator in NYC. My point is that free enterprise is the most efficient way to keep prices down. The lot of the poor has increased tremendously under it. In fact, the poor today live much better than medieval kings. Price controls, on the other hand, cause shortages and black markets. Yes, the Halacha recognizes reality. The Gemara has many examples where takkanot were not instituted or repealed because of negative consequences.
2. Pills cost much more in the US because of crony capitalism. This is not free enterprise. If the price police the SA mentions would be engage in anti-coercive monopoly activities which promote competition they would serve the purpose of the halacha (see the Wikipedia article on antitrust laws in the US in the section on Theory).
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