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The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff (this brought tears to my eyes)

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  • Started 1 year ago by chalilavchas
  • Latest reply from eliezer

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  1. chalilavchas
    Member

    The Weberman Trial By 5TJT Staff
    The horrifying saga of the Nechemya Weberman trial and the guilty verdict on 59 or 60 of the consolidated counts has caught the attention of the world.
    If the allegations are true, as guilty verdicts tend to indicate, and as the existence of 11 other victims too fearful to step forward indicates, then what we have here is truly sickening.
    We have a 12-year-old girl that did not quite meet the standards of the community around her. The school officials refused to admit her back into the school unless her parents pre-paid for therapy—to the tune of $12,900.
    And then she suffers three years of horrifying abuse at the hands of the very “therapist” that the school had required her to meet with regularly. Imagine the pain of such a girl who must endure the sickest of acts—with the knowledge that no one would believe her if she told of what was being done to her.
    The Navi cries out, “Bagda Yehuda v’soaivah ne’esasa b’Yisrael!” Our schools are named after our heilege imahos and avos. And the matriarch, Mama Rachel, is crying now. Of that there is no doubt.
    Our schools have handed over these precious souls to monsters for abuse. And then, when they ultimately come forward, we vilify them and their families. We exclude them from our camps and our schools.
    Hakezona ya’aseh es achoseini?
    And this was aided and abetted by the kehilah leadership, rachmana litzlan! The kehilah leadership! Not even a brush full of the blackest of paint could put such horrors on a canvas!
    Has there ever been such a parallel in our entire history?
    During the reign of Nicholas the First, y’s, in Tsarist Russia, we had something close, when he initiated the heartless conscription of precious Jewish children for 25 years in the Russian army. The kehillah leadership selected the recruits. They were from the weakest of the weak, the young boys of defenseless widows. The kehillah had hired vicious people called, “khappers” who would do the vile deeds.
    It was the Bubby of Yehuda Leib Katzenelson, who best related the dark history of this time, a history that finds parallel in our very own times now too:
    “First I thought that the khappers could only be Plishtim or mizera Amalek. But no, my child, to my horror, to our great shame and horror, the khappers, all of the khappers were, in fact, Yidden. Yidden mit beard un payos! And that is our greatest problem. We Jews are accustomed to attacks, lies, libels, and evil decrees from anti-Semites, yes. This has happened from the dawn of time, and such is our lot in the galus. In the past, our enemies held a cross in one hand and a knife in the other and said, “Jew! Kiss the cross or feel the blade of the knife!” and Jews preferred death rather than conversion. But now there comes Yidden, fruma Yidden, who capture children and send them off to oblivion. Such a punishment was not even listed in the most horrible curses of the toychacha. Yidden spilling the blood of their brothers! And, rachmana litzlan, the rabbanim are silent!”
    Her words, so poignant and so painful, describe the fate of this dear daughter of Williamsburg as well, who suffered not once but twice! Once at the hand of her tormentor and again at the hands of our community who so abandoned her.
    The horrifying reality is that all this was brought about by the existence of a so-called “Vaad HaTzniyus!” Clearly, we need to do teshuvah. We need a teshuvah so profound and deep that it should shake the very mountains that surround us.
    This op-ed does not mean to question the notion of an institution that watches over tzniyus within Torah communities. The need for an oversight committee to ensure that matters between the genders do not get out of hand is established both in the Talmud, the Shulchan Aruch, as well as in the codes and laws of numerous societies and nations throughout history.
    What we are questioning, however, is how this particular Vaad HaTzniyus is staffed and operated. The revelations made in this trial and by various people who have been in touch with rabbanim as to their experiences are appalling.
    It seems, unfortunately, that we have allowed this institution to run amok, staffed by corrupt individuals, who have lost all sense of propriety in what types of behaviors the Torah demands of us. The Weberman case reveals the tip of the iceberg in how low we have sunk in terms of corruption, extortion, and yes, violations of arayos.
    If we look into the halachic sources, the officers of these organizations must be an extension of a beis din. It is sad to say that in this Vaad HaTzniyus, there is no affiliation whatsoever with the community beis din—they are gangs of self-appointed ruffians with little or no Torah training whatsoever, who use threats and intimidations to line their own pockets or to fulfill some psychological need to exert power over others. In short, the Williamsburg community must face up to what we have allowed to develop within our midst.
    We have our own home-brewed mafia.
    This mafia is not represented by poskim, rabbanim, or by batei dinim. Indeed, our Torah leaders are frightened to take a stand against their excesses. We need to take steps to remedy this situation, and we need to do so now.
    Firstly, we must abolish the current organizations now and disenfranchise them from any power base that we can. The Vaad HaTzniyus organizations and everyone involved in them must be directly run by batei dinim and poskim. The beis din must have oversight over every individual involved in these activities and anything said and done must have the approval of qualified poskim.
    Secondly, like in other areas of halacha, the beis din should have the ability to consult with trained experts in the medical, psychological, social work, and legal fields to assist and advise in their decision as to what is proper and appropriate. Violations of hilchos yichud with a 12-year-old girl is never appropriate, notwithstanding Mr. Weberman’s horrible and incorrect misrepresentation that hilchos yichud is not a Torah violation.
    Thirdly, we cannot have the chillul Hashem of forcing clients, students, or others who may have stumbled to attend “therapy sessions” with non-professionals who happen to be our own family members. Therapists should only be of the same gender as the client, and must be unrelated to the one pushing the recommendation. As Torah Jews we must make every effort to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Here we have what appears to be gross and wholesale “scams.” The chilul Hashem that we have all witnessed here in the past two years is of a dimension never seen in our history.
    And finally, we must end the culture of punishing those who come forward. The menahelim of the schools that refused admittance to family of those who came forward must be either removed from their positions or severely warned. They must be identified and told not to do so again. We must learn the lesson of this toeivah that happened in Klal Yisrael and make sure that it never happen again.
    In the early 1850’s when the great gaon and tzaddik Rav Eliyahu Shik of Grodno found out about the kehillah’s involvement in the horrible reality of khapping yiddisher kinder, he called upon everyone to “revolt and rebel against the heads of the kehilah, to tear the kahal building to shreds.” He himself ran with an axe in his hand in front of the crowd that had gathered, each man armed with an axe. Before they were stopped they had broken the iron bolts on the door of the kahal building and freed the three young men that were held there.
    Our reaction must be to immediately dissolve this Vaad HaTzniyus which forced Yiddishe girls into the hands of a monster. Their names should be recorded and never again must such people be put in charge of such grave matters of responsibility. A vaad of tzniyus must only be direct representatives of choshuvah and leading poskim well respected throughout the Torah world. And no matter who it may be, which meyuchasdika person, we must never forget the holy words of Chazal, “Ein apitropus l’arayos—no one, absolutely no one can be trusted alone in matters of arayos.”

    http://5tjt.com/?p=17443

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    Sadly, we are often our worst enemies, and the results of this are tragic. This is what led to the destruction of Bayis Sheni- sinas chinam, Jew-on-Jew hatred and violence, and it sadly continues to this day. And it goes on on this forum. Jews in black hats attack Jews who wear kippot serugot. Ashkenazim attack Sefardim. The Reform aren't Jewish enough for other Jews; this one isn't a real Jew because the rabbi who converted them is Modern. We need to stop the politics, unite around the banner of halakha, and love our neighbors, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    rebdoniel, the majority of posters on this forum might not be "modern" enough for you. But you are being motzi shem ra on many, if not all, in this forum, of all stripes when you make your spurious claims.

    Ironically, you call on everyone to "unite around the banner of halakha" when the movement you identify with does not maintain 100% fidelity to halacha, even though they might try to fool themselves that they do.

    It was the militant and kineged-daas-Torah baryonim, who were the final cause of the destruction of one Beis HaMikdash. Their closest modern-day equivalent are the Zionists whose faith MO hold so dear, strangely above almost all else, sadly.

    Yet in the same paragraph you seem to question how a reform Jew is "not Jewish enough". Halacha has clear parameters as to what a Jew is and what is an apostate Jew. Denying the Oral law, not to mention ignoring much of the written law, does not a good Jew make.

    What surprised me most in the allegations above is the yichud issue. If that's true, this is very surprising. That there are sick people is, unfortunately, not surprising. That people are blinded by the allure of money, too, is also not surprising. That people are corrupt and unchecked, is also not shocking. But, besides for the improprieties, that an institution would not only permit but require a vulnerable teen to be misyacheid with any man, much less her "therapist", which is very much against the Torah and common sense, not to mention the extortion tactics and tremendously high hourly fee, is very depressing to read, because, IMHO, that seems to indicates a larger rot than a few bad apples.

    But, as we read this past week, your beloved bastion of MO also had better things to do (money) than to deal with allegations of impropriety.

    And there is actually a recent high-profile conversion that was done by respected MO rabbanim, which was and is a chilul Hashem. Speaking about halacha, "Ain cholkim kavod laRav" where Chilul Hashem is involved, as in that case. But, in the interest of shalom, I will not name any of the parties involved.

    So many people are hurting, across many sectors of yahadus.
    May Hashem redeem us all, BB"A.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    rebdoniel
    "The Reform aren't Jewish enough for other Jews"
    "We need to stop the politics, unite around the banner of halakha"
    Correction: The Reform aren't Jewish and they have zero interest in keeping halacha or having anything to do with Torah life.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Correction: The Reform aren't Jewish and they have zero interest in keeping halacha or having anything to do with Torah life. "

    With all due respect to you, you are the one in need of correction. Reform Jews are no less Jews than the most Chareidi of Yidden. They may,as you say, have zero interest in keeping halacha, but they do not lose their Jewish status for committing that aveira. It is sad that they, who are fully Jewish, may be causing others to be nichshal by allowing them to THINK they have converted to Judaism. Those "converts" are the ones who are not Jewish, not the ones who are born as Jews but live like Goyim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. zahavasdad
    Member

    If a reform Jew has a Jewish Mother, He is a Jew.

    If a "reform Jew" has a Jewish father, but not a jewish mother he is not jewish

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. akuperma
    Member

    Some things not mentioned in the article: 1) the names and accounts of the testimony of anyone who saw them together - remember doing yichud in a frum community sets off all sorts of alarms; 2) discussion of any evidence that the defendant's lawyers claimed to have that wasn't admitted (probably the girls sexual history, which might have provided a motive to lie); 3) the medical records and physical evidence to support the accusations; 4) the ethnicity and religion of the jury pool and what steps were taken to exclude anyone who didn't approve of Satmar's policy of keeping separate, or who didn't approve of Satmar's policy of opposition to the State of Israel; 5) discussion of the role played by "victim advocacy" groups who crated a witch hunt atmosphere (where the prosecutors announce in advance of the trial that child molesting is common among orthodox Jews and we are proud to have arrested one).

    I don't know if he was guilty. I haven't been to Brooklyn in years. But if I heard the same evidence except that it was about a Black man raping a White woman and everyone knows such crimes are common (cf. Scottsboro), or about a Jew accused of killing a Christian to use the blood in religious rites (cf. Beilis) -- I would be very skeptical. All the cases accusing the Orthodox community of sexual misconduct have a similar lack of physical evidence, lock of independent corroboration, and are brough by people who serious object to our religion, lifestyle and politics. At a certain point, they start to smell like a "witch hunt", and while perhaps there really were witches, one should be skeptical.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    If someone has a Jewish father, they still are zera yisrael and have kedushas yisrael. Rav Haim Amsalem just wrote a 2 volume sefer on that inyan.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. rebdoniel
    Modern/Open Orthodox

    I would like examples of how Modern Orthodox Jews somehow fail to meet the standards of halakhic observance.

    You can't name any, so quit while you're ahead.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. chalilavchas
    Member

    Yes, lets all work on lessening the Sinas Chinam, BUT,

    How can we best prevent another Weberman case from happening?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Loyal Jew
    Blocked

    Again we're falling for the "verdict" of a goyish court reported by goyish media. I agree that the acts alleged shouldn't be done but the answer is to get back to our proper standards of tznius, yichud etc., not to put a yid in jail because the goyim say so.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Ben Levi
    Member

    Is the 5TJT serious?
    First off they happen to be leaving apart of History out.

    The "gezeira" was for a specific qouta of Jewish children to be ponied up to the military.
    The rich people paid for poor peoples children to be kidnapped and used to fill the qouta so that theirs would not.

    I am in no way justifying what they did, it is horrible to say the least.
    But do not make it out as if they just set about doing evil to other peoples kids.
    That was not the case.
    They were faced with a horrible nisoyon (test), one that we can thankfully not imagine and many of them failed.
    They failed horribly.

    As for the part of the 5TJT that presumes to tell the Williamsburg community how they must "act" and what they must do.
    I hope they realize that is patently ridiculous.
    The community they refer to is by and large Chassidish and the particular one in focus is Satmar.
    I do not think that the Satmar Rabbonim are going to turn to the Five Towns community for advice on how to run their schools anytime soon.
    And if the authors of the article were smart they wouldn't try to give it.
    How's about the FTJT do a drop of research as to which community is actually more successful in passing down their chinuch to the next generation?
    As for the "culture" of punishing those that come foraward.
    Lets be clear about this.
    Never ever has a single Satmar Chossid or member of the community justified anything that this man is alleged to have done.
    They have not and would not justify it. As the very thought of it is repulsive.
    Heres the catch.
    They say he did not do it.
    Other women who let their names out and stood up on the witness stand. Said we attended therepy with him.
    He did not do it.
    The secular press has admitted there this is a "He said, She said" case. There is no evidence he did it.
    Two people now say that others have come forward.
    For years he practiced.
    He was sent this girls older sisters.
    No word, no rumours, nothing.
    All of a sudden out of the wood work comes two people saying others all of a sudden found out they could come forward anonmously.
    Can the 5TJT staff please write an editorial explaining what the halachic sources are that allow them to believe this girl over him are?
    And to beleive her so firmly that they are able to write an editorial slandering an entire community?
    If they should chose to write such an editorial it will probably take them awhile cause tit does not exist.
    BTW it actually is a machlokes whether Yichud is a Drabonon or not and the Tzitz Eliezer says according to the Mechaber it's a Drabunan.
    According to everyone Kabbolas Motzi Shem Rah is an Issur Doiraisa.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. 147
    -105

    Thank you so much weberman for having reinforced my conviction, that this coming Iyor, just 4 months away, I shall IY'H definitely be observing Yom ha'Atzma'ut, and I shall also IY'H definitely be observing Yom Yerusholayim, and I shall always fly to Israel with EL AL, to patronize this Jewish Airline.

    These are my 3 oaths, and every Satmar must undertake these 3 oaths which would just be the very beginning of a Kapporo for the terrible Chilul haShem that has evolved over this past week.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    rebdoniel, it's all discussed elsewhere, including on these boards. But the idolatry of Zionism alone is a show-stopper. Publishing reviews of bars/pubs in MO publications (reviewed, in person, by a Jew, of course), going mixed swimmming, et al. would all qualify as "failing to meet the standard", too. The recent high-profile chilul Hashem of a conversion is also not halachicly acceptable.

    With all due respect, rebdoniel, before you read random sefarim on random topics, you might want to look at one called Pirkei Avos. Therein, one is commanded "asei licha rav..." If you haven't done so, that's definitely the way to start before reading sefarim and changing your world view based on a sefer, no matter how legitimate and clear that other sefer may be.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    chalilavchas: I don't usually read long posts, but I read yours. It's an amazing post. I agree with everything you said.

    This is so so sad!!! Not just sad - it's so so SICK!!!
    When will this all end? What will become of this girl and all the others he molested? It's just horrible!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Avi K
    Member

    HaKatan, how is Zionism idolatry? On the contrary, it is carrying out the mitzvot of yishuv and conquering EY. Your other contentions are just as ludicrous. MO publications do not review bars/pubs and mixed swimming is certainly not promoted.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Health
    Member

    chalilavchas - Mr. Rabble Rouser from Willi - Maybe the same guy who got bleach thrown on him - maybe not?

    "The Weberman case reveals the tip of the iceberg in how low we have sunk in terms of corruption, extortion, and yes, violations of arayos.
    If we look into the halachic sources, the officers of these organizations must be an extension of a beis din. It is sad to say that in this Vaad HaTzniyus, there is no affiliation whatsoever with the community beis din—they are gangs of self-appointed ruffians with little or no Torah training whatsoever, who use threats and intimidations to line their own pockets or to fulfill some psychological need to exert power over others. In short, the Williamsburg community must face up to what we have allowed to develop within our midst.
    We have our own home-brewed mafia.
    This mafia is not represented by poskim, rabbanim, or by batei dinim. Indeed, our Torah leaders are frightened to take a stand against their excesses. We need to take steps to remedy this situation, and we need to do so now.
    Firstly, we must abolish the current organizations now and disenfranchise them from any power base that we can. The Vaad HaTzniyus organizations and everyone involved in them must be directly run by batei dinim and poskim. The beis din must have oversight over every individual involved in these activities and anything said and done must have the approval of qualified poskim."

    Now the first question you'll ask me is why copy & paste so much? The answer is because I agree about Vaad Hatzinuses. Let them go back to wherever they crawled out from.
    Now here's comes the rant: I see no proof from the case that this guy is guilty. If anybody here learned any Torah you know we need two Eidim, even in a Goyishe court you need at least one. Nothing even close to that here. And even where Bais Din would do things in circumstantial evidence - it was where it was clear about the perp's guilt -here it's not clear at all.

    But the biggest joke of your post is that you said the only ones that should have power are the Bottey Dinim, noone else. This would be correct if they were all honest. I know two different principals in two different towns that are molesters. The evidence by one I know first hand (And No - not personally involved) - the other I read evidence against him by more than one person. But what did these two separate Bottey Dinim do? They said it's all lies - so these people are still in their positions. So what's up with the Willi bashing -you think it's better elsewhere - LOL?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Ben Levi
    Member

    What do you mean Health.
    The Willi bashing is quite understandable.
    Don't you see any standard Shabbos in Williamsburg you can see how much less concerned they are with men and women acting friendly with each other then in the Five Towns.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. chalilavchas
    Member

    Health,

    So what's up with the Willi bashing -you think it's better elsewhere - LOL?

    My point exactly. We all have our imperfections that have to be worked on.

    Imho, Willis are less likely to admit that they have ANY imperfections. Prove me wrong. What issue/crisis have the Satmar Rebbes or "Klal tee-ers" EVER admitted that they need to improve on? And calling a girl a Zonah publicly, while not reacting at all to the stone-age barbaric spitters and bleach thrower? Why? Beecause they dont approve of his tactics theyre allowed to remain quiet about this behavior in their midst? They would stop this barbaric activity the second the Rebbe would tell them to.

    Btw, if you suspect Im Rosenberg, do you also think I write for the 5TJT? Boy, Im a busy man...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Ben Levi
    Member

    Chalilvchas,

    Satmars are unwilling to admit they have any imperfections.

    Are you really really serious?

    Lets take just one example.

    Lavish spending at weddings putting parents in debt.

    What has been Satmar's response and what has been other communities responses?

    Who has been more effective?

    Or is it that you just do not like the Satmar community's way of dealing with things.

    Meaning that they do not see a need to broadcast their problems on the front page of every newspaper and have endless "commitees' and "professionals" that deal with it endlessly and are very satisfied that they can point to one success here and another there.

    Rather their Rabbonim and askonim meet behind close doors and come out with a community wide solution to address said crisis.

    But then we must feel left out when so many "crisis" that are in other communities that now wish to give Satmar advice just don't exist in Satmar.

    Lets see.
    The see the "tuition crisis"

    Doesn't exist in Satmar.

    The "Chasunah Spending Crisis".

    Does not exist in Satmar.

    No fun at all, is it?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. chalilavchas
    Member

    Ben Levi,

    "tuition crisis" doesn't exist in Satmar.(because they dont hire highly educated teachers for their secular department, lowering their costs tremendously, They dont need degrees, remember?)

    "Chasunah Spending Crisis" does not exist in Satmar.(because most cant afford expensive weddings, so its a non-issue. The majority are just eeking by)

    Can you please address how the Satmar Machers are dealing with the bleach thrower and the many spitters, other than saying that it's all in self-defense.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. zahavasdad
    Member

    The see the "tuition crisis"

    Doesn't exist in Satmar.

    You get what you pay for

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Ben Levi
    Member

    Chalilchase.
    I am happy to be able to eduacate you since you seemingly are unaware of how things work in Satmar.

    Those who are part of the chassidus are quaranteed a place in school.
    If they cannot afford it the tab is picked up by others.
    Hence no tuition crisis.

    As for Chasunah Crisis.
    Are you unaware of the Chasunah Takanos in Stamar.
    They were made and enforce period.

    To detail them is pretty hard since it would take pages and pages as they literally cover everything.

    As for the Bleach Thrower.

    Considering it was in self-defense of the person why would they have to deal with it.

    As for the spitters.

    I don't know of any, but if someone uses foul language to abuse the Rabbonim and Askonim that lead a community then in a public forum and seeks to publicly disparage the community that said spitters are very grateful to, then I would think he should be happy that spitting is all that happens to him.

    If he does not like his community feels that he knows better then them and feels his "children" are at risk.

    Why does he continue to live there?

    I actually think that it is a pretty remarkable display of restraint on the part of Satmar that he can live in the heart of a community that he publicly embaresses, curses and mocks in the most disgusting manner and all he can complain about is being "spat" at.

    Oh and I would think those that he alleges spit at him don't exactly feel he is "protecting" their children, do they?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Yiddishe Kup
    Member

    To those who say there is no evidence of weberman's crime, look at Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz's site. He states that 4 married women approached him regarding weberman's ations and someone who claims to be one of his vicitims posted a comment on Howowitz's site. So you may decide they are all lying, or Howowitz is lying but it isn't only one person's testimony.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Zdad,

    So only goyishe costs?

    Their lemudei kodesh is exponentially better than in any of the expensive schools. SO somehow, the schools you champion are ripping you off. And apparently foster inappropriate relationships that are not dealt with because of financial issues. (With tuition at 25,000 a year with out dorms)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. akuperma
    Member

    Note the many anti-Satmar comments above. And this is among orthodox Jews. What does this tell you about the jury pool? Why wasn't the case moved to a more neutral location?
    Doesn't this immediately suggest a breach of the basic rules of due process and fair trials? And that's without entering is discussion of lack of corraborating evidence or possible denial of the defense to present evidence that would contradict the state's case.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. chalilavchas
    Member

    Yiddishe Kup,

    To those who say there is no evidence of weberman's crime, look at Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz's site. He states that 4 married women approached him regarding weberman's ations and someone who claims to be one of his vicitims posted a comment on Howowitz's site. So you may decide they are all lying, or Howowitz is lying but it isn't only one person's testimony.

    How right you are!

    If role models are seeing it one way, its impossible to survive in the community if you have a differing opinion. Once it's been decided, new findings and facts dont matter! Whoever disagrees is lying. Its all one big game of strategy and alliances.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    Avi K: no, it's not.

    There were many yishuvim before Zionism. One does not need a State in order to settle there. It is also an aveira to conquer E"Y before Hashem has redeemed us. Further, it is insanely stupid to even attempt to do so, because the punishment described there in the gemara for doing so is unimaginably terrible. Yes, I suppose the rest of my contentions were just as (non-)ludicrous.

    Zionism is worshipped in two ways. By non-religious people, it is their God to whom they sacrifice everything: their lives, children, religion of their fathers, et al. By "religious Zionists", it ranks in importance right after (I hope it's after) Shema Yisrael.

    As has been amply demonstrated before in other threads and is clear to anyone not drunk on Zionist Kool-Aid, the goal of Zionism was and is to shmad Jews. By elevating this same Zionism to a tenet of faith, the MO and "Religious Zionists" are lessening the chashivus of other mitzvos.

    And by denying any part of Toras Moshe Rabbeinu, like the part about the gimmel shevuos, and replacing that with this abomination of Zionism, sounds like idolatry to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Syag Lchochma
    Talmidah of Rebbe Akiva

    Ben Levi, I have been very impressed with your respectful tone but I am floored.

    As for the Bleach Thrower.

    Considering it was in self-defense of the person why would they have to deal with it.

    As for the spitters.

    I don't know of any, but if someone uses foul language to abuse the Rabbonim and Askonim that lead a community then in a public forum and seeks to publicly disparage the community that said spitters are very grateful to, then I would think he should be happy that spitting is all that happens to him.

    Those are some frightening words. If it is self defense you can throw bleach in someones face? Maybe if you are defending yourself from someone with a gun while you are in a laundromat. Self defense from "verbal harassment" warrants BLEACH in someone's face?

    And the spitting is okay because he is lucky he is only being spat at? So your community really DOES advocate for these types of behaviors?

    I'd rather have a tuition crisis, chasunah crisis, and a bad case of acne than live among people who actually excuse treating Jews like that. As much as I disagree with everything the Satmar community has done regarding this trial I refuse to speak out against the satmar community. But if you will hold your head high and speak proudly about these types of behaviors, and will call a girl a zonah because you don't want her to be telling the truth (there is no more proof that she WASN'T telling the truth than that she was), then I need to rethink my position.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. Josh31
    Member

    "gimmel shevuos"
    A big part of that is having respect for laws of the land, such as requirements that psychologists be licensed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Ben Levi
    Member

    Sorry,forget about a Al Pi Din, there is no court of law in which someone stating that four other anonyomous people approached me,
    I can't tell you their names but trust me their their, would be admitted as evidence.

    Even in Webermans trial someone had to take the stand even the Non-Jewish court system recognizes the utter stupidity of even allowing such eveidence to be admissible.

    Especially considering this.

    Someone comes out says that someone else is guilty of a heinous crime.

    You'll see the evidence will come out in trial.

    Well there was a trial.

    There was no evidence.

    One girls word against one mans word (and a whole bunch of others that vouch for him).

    Including women who do not exactly "toe the party line" to put it nicely.

    Then all of a sudden said person who was shouting from the roof tops the other persons guilt starts talking about "others" who have now come forward.

    Others who are anonymous (if they exist, which I doubt).

    Others who for years could not come forward even anonymously!

    Who only found our Rabbi Yackov Horowitz's number now.

    Years after the actions they claim took place.

    These others who live in a community notorious for its rumour mill where reputations are broken with the snap of finger based on rumours, and yet the person in question was considered a man of upstanding charachter with not even a hint of impropriety mentioned about him.

    But now there are others.

    An entire investigative team could turn up absolutley zero evidence.

    Zero.

    The girls boyfriend was willing to take the stand and testify that she told him she would make up such a story.

    The girls 2 older sisters were "clients" of Weberman, they did stand back and allow their parents to send their sister to this "monster" without breathing a word?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. chalilavchas
    Member

    HaKatan, you seem to think you have clarity on the who why what and whens of life.

    Six million Jews were murdered before the popularity of Zionism.

    If Zionism is the cause of many Jews' problems and G-d is frowning upon us because of it, why, did Jews get the punishment of punishments, when Six miliion Jews were murdered before Zionism became popular?

    And then after Zionism became popular, after WW2, why has Frumkeit seen a major rebirth in the world, against all odds, when Frum immigrants started anew in new lands, throughout the world, with no education, no money, and became highly successful in all areas? Frum Jews certainly didnt suffer as a result of Zionist leanings.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. Health
    Member

    Yiddishe Kup -"So you may decide they are all lying, or Howowitz is lying but it isn't only one person's testimony."

    How about a Torah Kup? I never said this guy was innocent. I said the evidence that was presented in no way made him guilty even circumstantially. If the DA would have brought other victims -then I'd be comfortable that it was a just verdict.
    I posted this before -So why didn't he? Because he knew the biased Jury wouldn't believe a white middle-aged man over a young girl. The young girl couldn't possibly be lying -she must be a victim. They based their verdict on their emotions, not on the facts only.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. a mirrer
    Member

    rebdoniel
    next time dont bring up in a halacha discussion the words of a apikores like amsalem

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. mommamia22
    Member

    Ben Levi
    You're really defending spitting and throwing bleach?!?!?!?!!!?!?!!?!??!!
    I think we have cherem for that.
    Besides, his "so called" crimes were to try to expose abusive behavior. Whether you agree with the assessment as abusive is irrelevant. Throwing bleach and spitting is animal-like behavior and shouldn't be tolerated in any community.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. zahavasdad
    Member

    So only goyishe costs?

    Their lemudei kodesh is exponentially better than in any of the expensive schools. SO somehow, the schools you champion are ripping you off. And apparently foster inappropriate relationships that are not dealt with because of financial issues. (With tuition at 25,000 a year with out dorms)

    Exactly how many Talmedei Chachamin have been produced by these schools

    Health...

    There are other victims they were afraid to come out, Some have now said they will come out after the verdict, but after the way the victims family is being treated they are also having second thought

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. In which schools? The " expensive schools"? I don't know, but I have never met one from there, I have met am hoaratzim gemurim though.

    From the ones that went to yeshivis that you say you get what you pay for, I have met many very serious dedicated talmedei chachomim. Many. And very knowledgable. I went to a shiur from one of them who did not speak English as his first language, yet when it came to medical related issues he knew and understood all the terms and the intact cues related to them. And based on what I read here way more and better than you.

    As far as your claim about other "allegations" I have no reason to believe you or your source. I have seen a letter from the girl's father in support of weberman.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. Syag Lchochma
    Talmidah of Rebbe Akiva

    I have seen a letter from the girl's father in support of weberman.

    Not true AT ALL - His letter ONLY stated he tried to keep it out of the courts. If he thought Weberman was innocent, WHY DID HE NOT SAY SO in this letter???? To me this is more proof of weberman's guilt than a non Jewish court could ever give.

    Ben Levi - there was evidence. Children who aren't abused cannot make up stories and keep them straight under such cross examination. I have no doubt you have believed people who have told you things without actually seeing it yourself. Anyone who works with abused kids, including mashgichim and Rebbes, can tell when a person is speaking truth about this.

    Can I please ask you a question straight up? Not argumentatively. I am REALLY just trying to understand. Since you weren't there in those rooms, how are you able to profess SO strongly that it didn't happen, to the point of calling a girl horrific names? What makes you choose insisting she is lying, instead of acknowledging that you yourself have no evidence of anything, and just deciding to not be mekabel? I hope you will answer this sincerely.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. Avi K
    Member

    HaKatan, on the contrary, conquering EY is a Tora mitzva (Ramban Sefer Hamitzvot). As for the Gimmel Shevuot, they are not paskened in any of the codes. They are not Halacha but Aggadata. Moreover, even if they once were in place they no longer are either because they were only for 1,000 years (Rav Chaim Vital - BTW, the end of the 1,000 years more or less coincides with the beginning of the Crusades. Perhaps the "terrible punishment" is for not coming back) or because the nations gave permission at the San Remo Conference (Rav Meir Simcha) or because Hashem has called (Rav Soloveichik).
    However, you are correct that for us Zionism is right up there with Shema Yisrael. Both are commanded by the Tora and are basic to Judaism. As Rav Tzvi Yehuda said, we are not Religious Zionists - we are Zionist because we are religious and religious because we are Zionist. The two are inseparable.
    As for lessening the imporatance of other mitzvot, does it lessen the importance of my Shema that I put on tefillin?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. MorahRach
    Member

    It surprises me that people are so gung-ho here I'm their support for webberman. Unless there is specific physical evidence..in most molestation cases all you need to do is find that he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Others have come out but thy refused to testify because their families fear what will happen to them if they do. How sad is this? A good friend who is a psychiatrist and works primarily in Willaimsburg says that we will never fully be aware of how many sick people with this kind of mental illness are living there. They come to him for help which is definitely a good thing, but the communities keep it so tight lipped and do nothing to protect the children , they just cover it up. You can sit here and pretend that it's impossible for satmar to produce anything less than a huge Talmud chacham ball chessed etc but you are so wrong and it is so unfortunate.

    My husband works with a satmar fellow and they had a big argument about this case. So my husband said ok fine so you think he is innocent? Would you let him be alone in a room with your 2 young daughters everyday? The guy said absolutely. So now I have lost complete respect for the man my husband works with and I said I do not want his name mentioned in my home again.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. Ben Levi
    Member

    MM22,
    No the reason people are opposed to him is not because he is simply trying to "out" abusive behaviour.

    It is because of what he does (accuse people with no proof of anything) and use foul lanquage to embarrass an entire community in a public manner.

    Syog Lchochma

    B"h it seems you are extremly innocent, however please look up the "pre-scool exual abuse scandals" of the 1980's.

    To state, basically, because his "victims" (who btw claimed to be a young teenager, not a child of 5 or 6, when the actions took place) he must be guiloty shows a pretty high level of ignorance.

    As for why I chose to believe he is innocent.

    Last I checked the Torah says "Dan L'Kaf Zchus.

    If a single person shows up in BEis Din to accuse someone of something and can not produce any evidence to show they are actually making a valid claim such as "Kula d'lo posuk" that person recieves malkus for being Motzi Shem Rah.

    I have been told of no evidence what so ever that this girl is doiing anything but setting about to destroy some ones life in an act of revenge and an attempt to get rich.

    And I admit, the court case and all those on her side have further covinced me since in article after article, post after post I have read people twisting every which way to "prove" his guilt but no one can produce a stitch of evidence.

    If so many people trying to find anything on him could find absolutley nothing thats a pretty good indicator to me of his innocence.

    Now as Health has written,should any real evidence be presented against him I would of course have to rethink my position. However I don't see any of that.

    And BTW I am fully cognizant of the fact that there is real abuse cases out there.

    IMO it is real abuse victims that suffer the most here.
    There is a theory that the reason the "abuse" claim became so discredited for decades in the non-jewish world is becuase of what happened over the abuse scandals when the accusation was believed no matter what, a standard of proof was not required, a witch hunt atmosphere developed, and people went to jail even though they were innocent.

    Those people were eventually proven innocent and the "abuse" claim was discredited.

    That is what is scary.

    How many people now will no longer even listen when someone screams abuse precisley because of this trial?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. Syag-

    I will preface this with saying that I do not know what happened. However you say

    "there was evidence. Children who aren't abused cannot make up stories and keep them straight under such cross examination"

    1) Kids make up stories all the time and if it is a fantasy, they can see it in front of them. Think of kids who have imaginary friends.

    2) The point is moot, because the girl is now 18, hardly a child.

    3) Your point might have some basis if the story was about something the child would normally have no idea about. This girl apparently was sexually active with a boy friend of whicch there apparently was indisputable evidence. Accordingly this is not stuff that she would have difficulty transferring to someone else.

    Just because she said a story is not proof. I do not know if it is true, but proof it is not.

    And your argument about what is in the letter being proof about Weberman's guilt is about the most convoluted attempt at reason I have seen here, and that includes quite a few lulus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. eliezer
    Member

    Don't you all see the pattern?

    It seems we have such an outbreak every few years, there's a big cry and Tumult about openness, protecting the accusers, etc., and then we go right back to "sweeping it under the rug."

    It happened with the Kolko monster, and Yeshiva Torah Temimah covering it all up. Open instances of threats against students who were abused by this "rebbi", threats of suspension, Cheirum, etc. Heavy-handedness and pressure brought to bear by Margolis and his henchmen. And when this piece of garbage was convicted there was a cryout, "Oy, how can we just ignore or poor Yidesha Neshamas? Why are we not protcting them better?"

    And then - silence, nothing is done, the Gedolim - for the most part - continue to insist on silence and "deal with it quietly, in-house", or they simply refuse to believe it happens, siting Lashon Haroah Halachos...

    It's a pattern that won't end until the Gedolim and Rabbonim openly condemn and punish the monsters. Torah Temima should have been shut down.

    The real issue here is one of "The silence of the Gedolim and Rabbohim is deafening."

    Posted 1 year ago #

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