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What things should the chosson be doing for the kallah? There’s a yichud room gift, flowers for shabbos kallah, the leichter… Does he also give a siddur? What else is done?
Whatever you want
What you mentioned is basically it
Some give machzorim for yom tov when they’re engaged
There are no rules. Everything mentioned is optional. Some give some of those, some give all of those and some give none of those.
The chosson or the chosson’s parents?
Is the kallah having a shabbos kallah? if not, then flowers may or may not be needed. As for the leichters, it is normally purchased by the chosson’s side but I know where the kallahs grandmother wanted to but the leichters.
OP: Engagement ring?
A leichter isn’t a standard engagement gift.
Joseph: the Leichters are generally purchased by the chossons side sometime between the engagement and the chasunah. It is almost the equivalent of the kallah a side buying the Tallis and kittel
What are the “musts” for each, in your view; or at least the musts presents for the average frum couple? Is the following the musts:
Choson:
Diamond ring
Leichter
SheitelKallah:
Shas
Tallis
KittelAm I missing any “musts” or have I overstated it?
My shver did not buy me a shas or a watch and somehow I still married his daughter.
And just as you didn’t get a Shas or a gold watch, if a Kallah doesn’t get a leichter or diamond the kedushin is still valid and she is as happily married as you are without the Shas and gold watch.
What are her expectations? I bought machzorim and a matching siddur with her name on it.
Joseph: Leichters are different from a shas and watch. While it is true that the kiddushin is valid without it, it is considered one of the “musts” for the young couple. Generally bought by the chossons side unless a relative on the kallahs side wants to buy it. My grandmother bought the leichters for all of her grandchildren….grandsons and granddaughters alike.
@Joseph
Every family has different traditions
My wife took our daughters to have their sheitels made and paid for them, not the chassan
My eldest brother’s wife made a gift of the lechter for each of our children who has married
Each of our sons gave their kallah a diamond ring, granted the diamonds were family pieces that came out of our vault, but the boys paid for the setting and any additional side stones.
The boys purchased the kallah’s wedding rings. In fact, the mesader kedushin specifically asked the boys if they had paid for the wedding ring with their own money.My sons already each had a shas long before they were engaged
Opa (my mother’s father A”H) bought each of my sons a talis when they became Bar Mitzvah. Because they followed my paternal Litvak tradition, they were packed away for use after marriage.
The kallah or her parents purchased Kittels for the boys.
Our daughters presented the chassan with a gold watch after receiving an engagement ring. These were watches that were family heirlooms.
It is our family’s tradition for the mother of the Chassan to present the kallah with a gold bangle bracelet for the engagement, and a long string of Pearls for the wedding.B”H we are blessed with a treasure trove of inherited jewelry, crystal and sterling and it has been our pleasure to give each of the five couples a nice share of the yerusha.
This coming Sunday, our youngest I”H will wed.
Her chassan has purchased the engagement ring. He was presented with the gold watch that belonged to my wife’s late father. My daughter went with him and bought him a kittel, but he paid for his own Tallis. He had a Shas before they met. His parents gave my daughter diamond earrings as an engagement gift. They are moving into my MIL’s house, as it sits empty since she moved in with us this winter. I don’t know if they’ll end up there permanently, that will be their decision.Going back to my great grandparents at the turn of the 20th Century in Brooklyn, it has been the custom of our family for the Kallah’s father to buy a set of furniture for the first apartment and to set the new SIL up in business. In my case, the Chassan and daughter will come work for the CTL firm. I hope that in 5-10 years when I retire the firm will be run capably by our children and spouses and eventually by our grandchildren.
Leather bound siddur.
To have her name engraved on cover before wedding was a bibig debate by me. I had it done, but many thought it should only be done post weddingiac: A leichter is no more a must than a Shas. Indeed, many couples will give a Shas to the Choson but no leichter to the Kallah.
In fact, the mesader kedushin specifically asked the boys if they had paid for the wedding ring with their own money.
Why? He can acquire it as a gift; as long as it’s his, it makes no difference how or whether he paid fo it.
Joseph: Maybe in your seviva of friends and acquaintances. I my seviva of friends and acquaintances it is one of the “musts”.
DY: True. Each of my sons had to make a “kinyan” on the ring before the chasunah. There are some dayos that you need both kesef and hagbaah which is why some mesadrei kiddushin want the chosson to pay for the ring.
It is common to bash the customary gift slinging from Chosson to Kallah and vice versas, and to reassure friends and families that these things are not musts, they are unnecessary, and that you are doing society a favour by not conforming.
This is not true.
Of course, there is no obligation to conform to societies standards. But your kallah/chosson is expecting to be treated at worst no less than the norm. Failing to live up to expected standards displays a lack of sensitivity or care. If you have an open enough relationship, or are the type to recompesate in your own way so that she knows you do care, then fine, do what you like. But if she is going to feel unloved and devalued, you may want to re-weigh the gains versus the losses.
DY……………..
I’m afraid I can’t ask the mesader kedushin why he asked the question as he is no longer alive.
But he did ask it of all three of my sons.yekke: The argument here is *what are* the norms.
@yekke2,
I’ll probably be bashed for this or called elitist or wealthy or out of touch with most members of the CR, BUTI have found when people bash the gift ‘slinging’ it is because they do not have the means to do so.
When eldest brother got engaged, my future sister in law was vociferous about not liking sterling silver, a sentiment echoed over and over again by her mother. They were from simpler beginnings than us, as the parents were survivors with little formal education. When the kallah made the announcement, my mother told her: ‘in that case CTL and his future bride will get paternal grandparents’ sterling which is engraved with the family initial.’ SIL has seethed every yuntif at our home when she sees this on the dining table. For her 10th anniversary, My wife and AI bought her a set of sterling, trying to make peace. SIL also told my brother that she couldn’t have a diamond bigger than her married sister or mother. So she received a half carat stone while other brothers’ wives and Mrs. CTL got much larger stones (from the family yerusha). SIL never wears her ring, says rings bother her. Her daughters all got 2-3 carat stones when they were engaged, SIL had learned to enjoy better things during marriage.What are the norms?
That’s a strange thing to argue without a lot of sociological description…
CTL: Do you think SIL would have been less happy had she not learnt to enjoy “better things” in life?
yekke: Nu, fill in the missing sociological information, at least for what you know or your circles, to make this conversation complete.
@Joseph
I don’t think this SIL learned to be happy and enjoy finer things until her mother stopped interfering in SIL’s life. Her mother denigrated all the material things she could not afford and did not have.My OMA told all her grandsons that if they wanted to know if they would be happy with a prospective bride over the years of marriage the boys should take a good look at the girl’s mother and maternal grandmother to see what they’d be living with over the years. We do become our parents in many ways
Joseph, DY, CTL: I am not trying to argue nor “bash the gift slinging”. To be honest, we do not have the means to totally conform to what others get and our children know that.I did not buy my SIL a shas. We did not buy the shaitels for our DIL’s but did for our daughter.
@lowermytuition11210
You did not argue or bash ‘gift slinging’ you simply stated what you did not receive and did not give.
People must understand that NO gift can be a must. There are traditions, period. I have constantly advocated on the CR that people should live within their means and not go into debt.
I have worked hard for what we have amassed. We have also been fortunate to inherit things, not money. I never would have gone out and bought Mrs. CTL a 5 carat diamond ring. However she wears a stone of that size that my grandfather received in settlement of a debt in the 1930s. Some day, I expect it will adorn a grandson’s or great grandson’s wife’s finger.
We’re making our last daughter’s chasunah Sunday. No wedding palace and $200 per plate meal. It will be in our gardens by her choice. The cooking and baking has been done in our kitchens.
We are not and have never been in competition with our friends and neighbors. I remember many decades ago an old camp friend of Mrs. CTL making a snide remark because our eldest baby didn’t have a Perego carriage, but a no name carriage. About 6 years later, they called asking for the name of a good bankruptcy attorney.
CTL: First, Mazel tov on the chasunah and may the chupah be bshah tova umitzlachos and that the chosson and kallah should be zocheh to build a Bayis ne’eman b’yisorel lsheim lishilah u’lisifares.
Second, yes I agree we have to live within our means. I had long discussions with my rav as to what he thought we should agree to buy based on our financial situation. We did not go for the $100/plate that you sited above. We also don’t have a place as you do to make our own but we thought about it. This is why many are opting to hold weddings in Lakewood to hold down costs or to accept reasonable packages from the New York based catering halls.
I agree with your statement “People must understand that NO gift can be a must. There are traditions, period.” In my family, leichters are bought for the kallah, usually paid for by the chosson’s side unless someone on the kallah’s side insists on paying for it.
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