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This weeks Yated- teaching Savlanus (and other Midos) in

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  1. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    In this weeks Yated- teaching Savlanus (and other Midos) in the Yeshiva of Kelm, sparked serious discussion at my Shabbos table.

    R' Lipshutz's remembers his Zaidy R' Levin... R' Lipshutz quotes his Zaidy: "Every boy who came to Kelm was examined by the Alter and the people who came after him and given a middah, a trait,which he was to work on during his period in the Kelmer Yeshiva. Mein Middah iz geven Savlanus. To me, they gave the trait of Savlanus,remaining calm. Ziben yahr hob ich ge'arbet oif der middah...I worked on this middah for seven years..." (page 50, January 21, 2011)

    This paragraph lead to a very emotional discussion at our Shabbos table.
    __________________________________________________________________

    Question:

    If Savlanus, an extremely worthwhile Midah, can be taught, why cant we teach it today?

    Was some form of negative reinforcement used, that would never be allowed today?

    Have our methods of teaching and our treatment of kids, helped our kids? Are kids today better off with less serious emphasis on Midos?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. eclipse
    The Human

    I started learning the sefer Haser Kaas Mileebcha.It answers all of the above questions!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    Maybe the way to teach savlanus is to have savlanus and show it. If you give it some thought do WE as parents, mechanchim, etc. show the salvanus needed to teach it? Do we show other midos and are the best role models we can be in order to teach the midos WE need to teach?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    aries2756, Lav Davka. Often parents are too accepting, giving and patient and that spoils the kids. Thats the atmosphere today. The parent/child relationship these days is unrecognizable from years ago. Its a Dor Hafuch.

    But Id like to hear what Mechanchim in Kelm might have done to encourage/teach Savlanus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    re my question: "But Id like to hear what Mechanchim in Kelm might have done to encourage/teach Savlanus"

    No one has any thoughts on what their approach was? Have I stumped everyone?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. eclipse
    The Human

    I think they emphasized HUMILITY which eliminates a lot of triggers!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. truth be told
    AKA tbt

    Ofcourse: It may be worthwhile to read up about Kelm. Once you get more of a picture of Kelm and its exactness, please present it to us.

    Don’t think we can compare or relate well to Kelm and their superb methods. Reb Elya Lopian was practically blind in one eye in his older years eye due to a complication during eye surgery. When he was in his eighties he had another surgery scheduled to be performed on his other eye, the one that he could still see with. Went to wait for the bus, and waited an whole hour, making him late for the surgery. When the time of the surgery arrived, while he was still waiting he turned to look to see if the bus was coming. Until then he hadn’t looked. He remarked that in Kelm he would have received sharp rebuke for this. Looking to see if the bus is coming would have no bearing on its arrival. Thus, what permitted him to turn and look? (I believe that in order to give that sharp rebuke we must really live that way. I know I'm far far from it.)

    Reb Yaakov Kamenetzky also learnt in Kelm. During his first week, at Krias HaTorah the gabbai called up a Yisroel for the Cohen's aliya, assuming no Cohanim were present. Reb Yaakov pointed out that there was indeed a Cohen present. He wasn't thanked, he was punished. Was not allowed into the Bais Medrash for a day. His crime: Looking around durring davening.

    Two more stories: A person came for a relatives bris in Kelm. Left his cane there. When he returned for the baby's Bar Mitzva thirteen years later, the cane was still in the same place he left it. The man remarked that he wasn’t impressed that the cane wasn’t taken, for no-one would steal in Kelm. What impressed him was the cane was dusted every Friday and returned to its place. By the way, the cleaning was done on a rotation by everyone, including the most distinguished Talmidai Chachomim and Talmidim who came from very affluent households. They were responsible to clean everything, including the outhouses (old fashioned rest rooms).

    I believe there’s a story about a bet the Mayer of Kelm made with an army commander who was passing through. The marching band then came running into the Bais Medrash beating their drums. Not a single person turned from what he was doing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    If/when desiring to emphasize humility, how did they attempt to bring it about? What was their means?

    Im thinking- just by Shiurim and learning Halachos? I doubt it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    truth be told, thanks for offering these instances! I've now gained insight into life in Kelm.

    Although, if certain Talmidim were singled out for improvement in Savlanus and other specific Midos, I doubt they were left to pick things up on their own from observation of others, and nothing else. I think it would probably have been more individually tailored.

    What do others think about whether it was individually tailored and how it might have been individually tailored?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. truth be told
    AKA tbt

    Ofcourse: You're welcome. I don't think I even scratched the surface of Kelm

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. gavra_at_work
    Member

    Another taste of Kelm:

    (I have heard of, but have not seen for myself) A well know Gadol who is still alive today (AMUSH) who says in the middle of a Shmuz "This is what has to be done if you find out your pants are Shatnez" and goes ahead and takes them off (in front of all those present).

    Sheviras Hamiddos!

    May we be so strong.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. truth be told
    AKA tbt

    gavra_at_work: This "gadol" could not have learnt in th Kelmer talmud Torah. Its not a taste of Kelm at all.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    truth be told, yes, I think the picture in my mind of that scene would NOT contribute to Kvod HaTorah/Rabbonim. Quite the contrary.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. gavra_at_work
    Member

    TBT:

    Of course he didn't, he would be well over 120 at this point (for real Kelm).

    The idea is Mussar vs. a non Mussar approach.

    OC: That assumes the Gadol cares one Iota for his own Kavod, and doesn't feel the lesson taught to his talmidim is more critical.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Moderator-80
    Member

    Gedolim may not care for their own covod but they care a great deal about Covod Ha Torah, which they represent

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    I just learned something:

    Someone who discovers they are wearing shatnez is required to remove the garment immediately.

    http://www.aish.com/jl/m/48948976.html

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. gavra_at_work
    Member

    Mr. 80:

    That is why I said the second point. Limud goes before Kavod.

    Besides, if it did actually happen, do you have a Hava Amina that Kavod HaTorah would be Doche the Issur of Shatnez?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Moderator-80
    Member

    i wouldnt poskin based on an article from the aish website.
    im sure it depends on which garment and who is present and the weather conditions
    there are factors of sakana and covod ha briah which need to be considerd.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. truth be told
    AKA tbt

    gavra_at_work: here are some of the people who learnt in Kelm (amongst many others..)

    Reb Nosson Vachtfogel of Lakewood

    Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky

    Reb Elya Lopian

    Reb Chazkel Levenstein Zecher tzadikim L'vrocho.

    The OP also mentions the article about Reb Layzer Levin

    If these are the Talmidim, they're approach is the one I would believe is closer to the Kelmer approach. And there are honest books out there about them.

    One more Kelmer story: A person (don't remember his name, mentioned in Tenuas Hamusser) visited the Kelmer Talmud for the first time. In the hallway he was greeted by a talmud with such warmth, with sincere a inquiry about his trip, lodging etc. The guest felt bad that he didn’t remember this friend. After it happened with the next three people he met, he understood that this was simply the way the Kelmer talmidim behaved.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Moderator-80
    Member

    i thought that was Slobodka

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. truth be told
    AKA tbt

    Mod 80: the story? I read it about Kelm. Writers do occasionally interchange stories.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Moderator-80
    Member

    i didnt get the impession from the story that he was wearing shaatnez, only that he was illustrating with action what would need to be done in the event he was.

    limud comes before covod cannot be applied so broadly, certainly not to a Godol removing his pants before a rabbim. do you think a Godol would teach while sitting on a Sefer Torah to make some point of limud?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. gavra_at_work
    Member

    I just learned something:

    Someone who discovers they are wearing shatnez is required to remove the garment immediately.

    Of Course. That is the point.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Moderator-80
    Member

    could be Kelm, my memory has a leak.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. gavra_at_work
    Member

    limud comes before covod cannot be applied so broadly, certainly not to a Godol removing his pants before a rabbim. do you think a Godol would teach while sitting on a Sefer Torah to make some point of limud?

    If needed, Yes. No less than Avraham Avinu told Eliezer to place his hand on his Makom Milah, since it was needed. (Just thought of that off hand as an example, don't ask me specific questions)

    I don't feel you need to follow his Mehalech (I'm not of that camp), so don't feel it is required. I imagine many Roshei Yeshiva would never think to do such a thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Moderator-80
    Member

    okay

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. eclipse
    The Human

    Re:the Shatnez inyan,keep in mind that once upon a time even undergarments were fairly modest.D'rache'ha darchei no'am.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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