Tzahal Sweatshirts

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  • #607859

    Tznius or not?

    Harmless or not?

    I see lots of frum girls wearing them at home.

  • #946592

    achosid
    Participant

    What about a US army sweatshirt?

    Same answer.

  • #946593

    I think they are one of those “status symbols” that frum girls like to have that indicate that they have been to E”Y. I think they are completely harmless, if you are wearing it at home- even in public, there is nothing wrong with it. I mean, I would not go into a Bais yaakov wearing one, but when you go to malcha, or are in other places, I don’t see the harm in it. How are they not tznius? Mine is pretty baggy to say the least, I feel like a gangsta sometimes in it, at other times, it reminds me that I have the ability to be in control…

  • #946594

    WIY
    Member

    Why would “at home” be an issue unless at home means in the US.

  • #946595

    Imaofthree
    Member

    I think it depends on the girl and her taste.

  • #946596

    It kind of feels like a political statement to me.

  • #946597

    mdd
    Member

    I think it is a problem. I am not going into the reasons (at least, for now).

  • #946598

    MDG
    Participant

    Considering that one of the main purposes, if not the main purpose, that Tzahal has women is for disgusting non-Tsnius reasons, I would consider it a terrible thing.

    A girl wearing a Tzahal shirt is like saying (whether she realizes it or not) that she approves of the way Tzahal uses and abuses women. Wearing that shirt is like saying “I’m with them.” Would you consider it tsnius if a girl wore a shirt with a big picture of a rapper whose lyrics are misogynist and degrading to women?

    A friend of mine – former chayal – told me how Tzahal bussed in chayalot to the soldiers for the express intent of hooking up. To me, this is institutionalized zenus and a just a notch higher than human trafficking. Bilaam must be laughing in his grave.

  • #946599

    MDG, u r sooo wrong!

    snowbunny is right. I am from a very frum circle and as a teenager I always wanted a tzahal sweatshirt because it was a shticky thing to wear at night in camp and by school shabbosim. I honestly do not think anyone is associating with the IDF by wearing these sweatshirts- they are really status symbols just like any brand names…

  • #946600

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Maybe they support the brave men and women who risk their lives for the defense of the Jewish people day in and day out?

  • #946601

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    BPG,

    You missed an important phrase in MDG’s post:

    (whether she realizes it or not)

  • #946603

    BYbychoice
    Member

    As a frum female who wears a tzahal sweatershirt,i would like to say that at least majority of those who like myself wear these sweatershirts have no meaning behind the wearing of these sweatshirts other then they are warm,cuteand like snowbunny said it shows that the person was in E”Y. Besides the point that we should atleast be supporting tzahal a bit and most frum people dont,i think its a kiddush ‘H when goyim see the sweatershirt and see how frum a person is. Most have the beleife that as frum Jews we shouldnt and dont support the state of israel and we should! For those of you who will keep wearing the sweatershirt after reading this keep it up! think for yourself!!!

  • #946604

    Its kinda like how more secular Jews wear coca- cola apparel in Hebrew as their status symbol.

  • #946605

    MDG
    Participant

    Most women have no idea, not a clue, about a man’s yetzer hara. Every male has a strong tendency to see women in an Arayos fashion. Every male.

    A frum man will try to combat it. The greatest, like the Steipler Goal and the Baba Sali, were on constant guard to fight it. They would not speak with women. They would even not read a note from a woman (they could tell who wrote it just by looking at the writing), for they knew the enemy better than us. They stopped all infiltration, even the slightest.

    A non-frum man will become ensnared by the enemy and become it’s slave. He will try to constantly feed his evil master. He then will look for ways to play the field, planting traps, lure the prey, hunt, and kill to feed the enemy. But the desire is only momentarily sated; soon to desire more, as the hunger grows.

  • #946606

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    MDG: Now that is one way to resolve the shidduch crises.

  • #946608

    mdd
    Member

    Ladies, I am sure you do not mean it, chalilah, but it is like wearing a beis bushah uniform. It is like wearing a t-shirt with an avidah zorah temple on it. Support the the army in other ways.

  • #946609

    MDG
    Participant

    “Support the the army in other ways. “

    I agree. I did not want to imply a blanket condemnation of Tzahal.

  • #946610

    Boro Park Girl and Yiddishe Meidel, this is exactly the kind of attitude that surprises me. By supporting Tzahal, you are supporting the secular state. Not everyone in Tzahal is even Jewish! Why can’t you wear a Magen David t-shirt instead?

  • #946611

    MDG, I don’t think they are any less tzanua than any other sweatshirt.

  • #946612

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Torah613,

    Recognizing tzaha”l is not the same as recognizing the state.

  • #946613

    DaasYochid, I believe it is. One of our three promises to Hashem is that we won’t take back EY by force.

  • #946614

    I think the Chazal is “Lo Yaalu B’Choma”. One of the others is that we won’t throw off the yoke of the nations. And the third is that we won’t force Moshiach to come.

  • #946615

    OneOfMany
    Member

    MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?

    …really?

  • #946616

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    It is mindless and dangerous to wear such a thing. Mindless because “Tzahal” is the ultimate in untznius r”l. Dangerous because people are watching and there is a shidduch crisis.

  • #946617

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    613,

    Also that we won’t defend ourselves from those that are trying to kill us?

  • #946618

    DY,

    613’s point is that tzahal violated the shavuos (and also caused the situation of those trying to kill us, that you speak of.)

  • #946619

    BYbychoice
    Member

    torah613-your attitude is what surprizes me! yes there are some tzahal that arent Jewish,but what about those that are? Do you really think it makes them feel good when people say we shouldnt support tzahal just becasue there are non Jews,it should be we support it BECAUSE there are jews no matter the amount! and by wearing a magen david doesnt show that i relize that my fellow brethern and people i know are fighting with their lives so that we may go to E’Y,and yes we should be relaizing the secular state to some extent! otherwise we might not be even allowed in today!!

  • #946620

    I understand that there are different opinions, however I don’t think there is a point of debating the legitimacy of Zionism here on this website…

  • #946621

    WIY
    Member

    Torah613

    We really run EY?! What a joke! EY is and has been a satellite of the US for many decades.They probably couldn’t exist without the US money weapons and protection in the UN.

  • #946622

    HaKatan
    Participant

    It is inappropriate to wear an IDF sweatshirt, regardless of how naive its wearers may be.

    Every army indoctrinates its members in its nation’s core values. Regardless of your views on the State of Israel, and how much Zionist kool-aid you’ve had regarding how the IDF protects Jews, etc. ad nauseum, those core IDF/Zionist/anti-Torah values, including the rampant znus there, and that the gedolim have already ruled it is Yehareig viAl Yaavor to join that army, are all obviously very much not in consonance with those of a BY Girl.

    I’m surprised this is even a hava amina. Besides for the whole Zionist mess, the gedolim said it’s better to forfeit one’s life than to join the IDF. Yet some BY girls think it’s okay to wear a sweatshirt with the IDF logo imprinted on it because they want a wearable memento from Eretz Yisrael?

    (Would you wear a sweatshirt with an image of an avoda zara on it as a memento from a trip to Rome, lihavdil?)

    Do they not make sweatshirts with Yerushalayim or the Kosel or something else that’s actually Jewish, if you must have a memento from E”Y? Even if not, where is your sensitivity?


    On another note, who said you have to support the army, and who told you it’s a kiddush Hashem to show the nations you support the IDF? Maybe you have no business supporting that which the gedolim ruled is yehareig viAl Yaavor to join and that it’s in fact a chilul Hashem to show the nations that you support anyone but your host country?

    Ask your LOR, but Zionism is a very big problem, even if the current attitude to it is essentially, “it’s terrible that Zionism came around, but now that it did, we can’t do anything about it”. This doesn’t kasher their various forms of rishus and it does not kasher their State or anything else about them, either.

  • #946623

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    There’s a difference between showing support for the state, or for the individuals who, l’maseh, are putting their lives on the line to protect Yidden.

    I greatly respect the Satmar shitah, but it’s not the shitah of the litvishe gedolim, who did show gratitude to soldiers.

  • #946624

    DY,

    Perhaps on an individual basis, but the Litvishe gedolim (as a rule) didn’t recognize tzahal as an institution.

  • #946625

    BYbychoice
    Member

    snowbunnny-i think your totally right,this is a long standing issue and not really the place to be dissuced on this kind of site,especially around the topic of sweatshirts

  • #946626

    Naftush
    Member

    MDG intones: “A friend of mine – former chayal – told me how Tzahal bussed in chayalot to the soldiers for the express intent of hooking up.” This friend must have reported the ghastly incident to someone, say, a media correspondent, a government watchdog, or a lawyer acquaintance, especially since he knew what the “express intent” had been. The resulting investigation must have generated lots of headlines. So, MDG, please tell us what came of it, apart from providing you with titillating fodder for lashon hara against the IDF.

  • #946627

    Thanks to Litvish Kiryas Yoelite, that was the point.

    Of course I support individual soldiers! I think all the soldiers in Tzahal are very brave and I’m thankful for their sacrifice of time and exposure to danger to support Jews. That’s a different issue entirely. This thread is about the appropriateness of wearing Tzahal sweatshirts, you can start another thread to talk about sweatshirts in general (as WIY already has) or Tzahal in general.

    Thanks for posting HaKatan.

  • #946628

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Better question, I see a lot pf BOYS wearing Yankee T-Shirts etc. during Bain Hazmonim, is that Tznius?

    Which is preferred, if you have to pick one..Yankees or Tzahal?

  • #946629

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Torah613613torah,

    As a man, I would still never wear a tzaha”l sweatshirt, because of the political connotations.

    My point is that I can see someone wearing it not as a political statement, but rather as a show of personalsolidarity with the soldiers.

  • #946630

    MDG
    Participant

    OneOfMany said: “MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?

    …really? “

    Yes. What does one have to do with the other? Men can be physically intimate and emotionally detached at the same time. We all need some entertainment – some are more Tahor than others.

    Rabbi David Orlofsky has a good shiur on a man’s yaitser hara and how many men will do whatever it takes to satisfy that urge. You can find it at simpletoremember.com

    …………………………………………………..

    Naftush said: “This friend must have reported the ghastly incident to someone, say, a media correspondent, a government watchdog, or a lawyer acquaintance….”

    No one was forced to do anything. They just set up the situation for debauchery and let nature take its course. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. If the horse is thirsty, it’s going to drink.

  • #946631

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaaasYochid, wearing anything with a logo on it explicitly denotes support for that organization, so anyone who wears it for whatever reason is still incorrect in doing so.


    anon1m0us, there’s no contest between the two, though organized sports happens to be another topic.

    Many yeshivos and camps have taken their students or campers to ball games. As well, many gedolim have proclaimed it’s yehareig ViAl yaavor to join the IDF.

    Is it not very obvious which shirt is better to wear?

  • #946632

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    It’s implicit, not explicit, but because it’s implicit, I wouldn’t wear it.

    And it’s not true for any organization; if I wear a Wildlife Conservation Society sweatshirt, it’s not because I support them,it’s because they gave me a free sweatshirt when I signed up (as a way of saving money on the zoos/aquarium).

  • #946633

    DY: I don’t think Maris Ayin would apply for a WCS shirt. Because you are against Tzaar baalei chaim, and everyone knows you don’t give money to save sharks because you care about the sharks. It’s completely different davka paying for these sweatshirts. Tzahal doesn’t give them out for free.

  • #946634

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    HaKatan: Can you please list off the MANY gedolim that state that it is yehareig ViAl yaavor to join the IDF? Do not include Satmar or Neutra Karta.

  • #946635

    The Chazon Ish says it is yeherag val yaavor for women to join the idf.

  • #946636

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite: and men?

  • #946637

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    613,

    Hakatan said, “anything”.

  • #946638

    ShiraTobala
    Member

    As long as you cant see your collar bone or elbows or knees. Also, boys don’t have the Mitzva of tznius.

  • #946639

    DaasYochid: Not sure I get your point

  • #946640

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    613,

    I don’t think wearing a sweatshirt is an automatic show of support for whatever is behind the logo, as HaKatan opined. It may or may not be.

  • #946641

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid, by wearing a WCS shirt or any other t-shirt, whether or not you got it for free, you are, like it or not, expressing an approval for that organization. That’s just the facts.

    You may mean differently, and that’s very nice in your own thoughts, but, in the real world, wearing a logo implies some recognition/support of what that logo represents.

    With a Sports Team, for example, it could mean you enjoy watching their games or attending their games in person. It could also mean you consider them to be role models or more; but it doesn’t necessarily mean that.

    There is no possibility of kosher endorsement of the IDF. The best you can say is that, once the Zionists made the mess they did, the IDF is now needed to deal with that mess. Arguably. But that’s not why one wears a t-shirt or sweat-shirt, just like you wouldn’t wear a sweatshirt with a toilet plunger (except as an an inappropriate joke) despite its utility, so the obvious implication of wearing an IDF sweatshirt is more than that, one of endorsement, which is inappropriate on a number of levels.

  • #946642

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Sorry, soldiers aren’t toilet plungers. Couldn’t you have thought of a better analogy for people who risk their lives to protect Yidden (no matter what their motivation might be)?

    Your analogy to sports teams is a pretty good one – some people wear those sweatshirts to show support for the team displayed, and some (although certainly a minority) simply because it’s stylish or because they received it from a fan or bought it in the local thrift shop.

  • #946643

    walton157
    Member

    MDG: Yes, that is why they are called “male”, for they have no self control at all.

  • #946644

    OneOfMany
    Member

    OneOfMany said: “MDG: So you’re saying that one of the most active and combat-ready military forces in the world is in some significant proportion structured around providing its soldiers opportunity for fornication?

    …really? “

    Yes. What does one have to do with the other? Men can be physically intimate and emotionally detached at the same time. We all need some entertainment – some are more Tahor than others.

    What does your answer have to do with my question?

  • #946645

    DY, lots of people like to argue “Don’t judge me by my clothes, but what’s inside.” Is that what you’re saying here, that the outfit doesn’t reflect your inner views necessarily?

    If that’s the case, would you go around with a sweatshirt that said “I hate Chareidim”?

  • #946646

    sushee
    Member

    OOM: Why is MDG’s original comment hard for you to accept? In the thousands of years of the history of war and mankind, armies have won and lost their greatest battles without women. Women are not suited for combat. Bringing women into an army does not strengthen an army.

    Why else, do you propose, has tzahal always been on the forefront of contemporary armies in placing women in combat?

  • #946647

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Joseph: What does your comment have to do with my question, or MDG’s comment?

    I am starting to feel like we are playing broken telephone here…

  • #946648

    sushee
    Member

    OOM: Clarify you original point, please.

  • #946649

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    613,

    No, that’s not what I’m saying.

  • #946650

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Joseph: Clarify what was unclear about it.

  • #946651

    sushee
    Member

    I thought my comment addressed your point, but you now indicate otherwise. What was your point?

  • #946652

    OneOfMany
    Member

    My point was that MDG sounded like a wacked-out conspiracy nut. I thought that was quite clear.

    What exactly was your point?

  • #946653

    DY: Please don’t call me 613. It makes me feel like a number*.

    (just kidding!)

  • #946654

    WIY
    Member

    OOM

    Who is Joseph here?

  • #946655

    OneOfMany
    Member

    sushee/sushe

    But since you ask…hm…on this thread, Loyal Jew and The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite. (And sushee/sushe.)

  • #946656

    BYbychoice
    Member

    sushee- just because in the past women have not faught in wars,why should that change anything now? in the past thousands of years women and girls got by without a proper education by any means and yet we are almost at a 100 year mark of Bais yaakov and relizing what a mistake it was for girls not to have learned previsoulsly. Besides who says that women are not good for combat and that they dont help?

  • #946657

    sushee
    Member

    ym613: Society, including women, was far better off before the shas hadchak that required the beis yaakov system. Women in combat is a terrible problem on so many levels, tznius being the foremost in addition to the points I earlier made about it.

  • #946658

    Women have less body mass, plus are distracting to men in combat. Unless it’s an all-woman unit fighting against an all-women unit, seems like a waste of time incorporating women into an army to me.

  • #946659

    BYbychoice
    Member

    sushee-why do you think that soceity was better before women where treated equally? besides without bais yaakovs how do you expect for all these young girls being able to work so their husbnands can learn in kollel all their lives( girls can only work in certain places if they know the halochos wich they learn in school!) and what problems exactly may that be for tznius please tell me?

    Torah613- in what way do you think women are distracting to men? and you are being very sexiest right now,you can say majority of women do have less body mass then men but there are many women out their that are stronger and can fight much better then certain men

  • #946660

    Yiddishmeidl, I really shouldn’t have to spell out in which way women are distracting to men. Just take my word for it that we are. Or ask a man.

    Yes, and there are many 13 year old boys out there who are taller than many women.

  • #946661

    BYbychoice
    Member

    torah613-edited. We aren’t discussing that. But, you are incorrect, as a quick google search would prove

    yes your right there are on occasion young boys taller then women,but they also are not necassirly stronger or better built,and women do mature faster then men adn are able to handle things of war better.

  • #946662

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid, no, I could not come up with a better analogy. Regardless of how commendable some of the people who serve in the IDF are, they are part of an organization that is anti-Torah which is, in turn, a part of a State that is anti-Torah. So I thought my analogy was actually pretty charitable.

    Regardless, as you mentioned at the end of your post, it doesn’t matter what you might think your reason is for wearing a sweatshirt or anything else.

    If the garment carries with it a popular connotation then by wearing that garment you will convey that connotation even if you’re doing so because it’s “stylish” or comfortable or you like the color or for any other reason.

    Wearing an IDF sweatshirt necessarily implies endorsement of the IDF and, also by extension, the State of Israel. This is, therefore, inappropriate, on many levels, as mentioned earlier.

  • #946663

    Yiddishmeidl: Fine, so go join the US army (or Tzahal if you’re in Israel).

  • #946664

    BYbychoice
    Member

    im so glad that you are checking with google for accuracy but its a pity that you trust the internet over frum people. I have very good friends with family in tzahal currently and i have seen how they dress and i will tell you its as frum as any bais yaakov girl. everyone has a choice when getting dressed how and what to wear and in the army the also have a choice,im sorry you think i was misinformed

    torah613- im not saying i have a tivah to join the army,because i dont. I am trying to defend those i know who do,theres nothing wrong with it and theres nothing wrong with women showing their eqaulity to men and theres nothign wrong with wearing tzahal sweatshirts,supporting tzahal

  • #946665

    Equality does not mean that people should be treated the same.

    With that said, I am not interested in this discussion with you, Yiddishmeidl, and it stops here.

  • #946666

    BYbychoice
    Member

    what i said was that women have every right as men do in the army,they should be given the same oppurtunity and cahnces,

    and that is totally fine with me, i find it hard to believe that their are still people like you who dont believe in giving men and women equal chances

  • #946667

    OneOfMany
    Member

    So have it with me. ^_^

    What does “equality” mean?

  • #946668

    BYbychoice
    Member

    equality means that people,male and female,are given the same chances and treated the same way. Such as men and women are equaly strong sometimes opposed to how some people veiw that men are always strong and women are weak

  • #946669

    OneOfMany
    Member

    lol I meant torah613613torah. I think I (mostly) agree with you.

  • #946670

    OOM – Equality is giving people equal opportunities with consideration of biological realities. 🙂

  • #946671

    Men and women are not equal. Women should not get an aliya and men should not tzind lecht Erev Shabbos.

  • #946672

    OneOfMany
    Member

    torah613613torah:

    Equality is giving people equal opportunities with consideration of biological realities.

    I entirely agree. And I think yiddeshemeidle613 agrees with you too. No one thinks that women who are unfit for battle should be sent out into war zones. In fact, I don’t really think that most women would serve much use in a war at all (at least in hand-to-hand combat). The point is that that does not logically impute that there are none who can, and therefore cannot serve as a basis for banning all from combat.

    My view, basically, is that equal opportunity be bestowed, and care be taken that it be truly “equal,” and not merely intended to pump the number of females for good PR. Any female with the correct motivations (and self-respect – any true feminist would be loathe to respond to such pandering) would probably pass muster and be worthy.

    Joseph: Please join only to add something relevant to the subject at hand.

  • #946673

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    OneOfMany, whatever you think I can’t stand in for your legendary “Joseph” but all commenters should “add something relevant to the subject at hand.” Here is something relevant about wearing IDF sweatshirts. As we sit here, that Cantonist organization is preparing to chap 3000 Jewish boys and some of us think it’s OK to wear its sweatshirt. That says all that needs to be said about “equal opportunity.”

  • #946674

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Okay, I’ll go for irrelevant: I don’t particularly approve of wearing IDF sweatshirts. Did I say something that made you think that?

  • #946675

    It should be worn as a “schmatte” – for cleaning the house, taking out the garbage, shopping in a dirty outdoor market, painting, arts and crafts, messy cooking etc. It can also be worn on Peerim, if your legs are slim enough to fit in its arms and you wear something equally absurd but tznius over it.

  • #946676

    mdd
    Member

    Loyal Jew, your warped and extreme comments betray your true id. Yoe are –Joseph.

  • #946677

    takahmamash
    Participant

    As we sit here, that Cantonist organization is preparing to chap 3000 Jewish boys and some of us think it’s OK to wear its sweatshirt.

    Imagine, if 3 thousand boys went in, perhaps 3 thousand girls would not have to go in.

  • #946678

    OOM: The problem is also incorporation. We agree that SOME women are stronger than SOME men. But it’s also about practicality. Incorporating women into an army is hard because men are distracted by them and want to protect them in battle.

    Anyway, lo silbash kli gever al isha. So it would be an issur d’Oraysa in any case.

  • #946679

    HaKatan
    Participant

    “Imagine, if 3 thousand boys went in, perhaps 3 thousand girls would not have to go in.”

    Imagine how many of those boys would, CH”V, experience tremendous nisyonos and yeridos in their avodas Hashem.

    And all for no reason other than that the Zionists want to shmad them just as they’ve always done.

  • #946680

    OneOfMany
    Member

    torah613: We were talking about the concept of equality. The practicality of incorporation does not factor into the concept. And while the religious implications are definitely a sticky wicket in and of themselves, they are still irrelevant to what we were discussing.

  • #946681

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Wearing a Yankee sweatshirt is yarog v’al yaavor in Boston.

    And in response to shiratobala on page 1, men have a mitzvah of tznius too.

  • #946682

    OOM: We’re talking about equality as it relates to women being in the army. If it takes special effort to incorporate someone in the army, than it is not equal.

    That’s why disabled men don’t get into special needs platoons in the army. They just get discharged.

  • #946683

    OneOfMany
    Member

    torah613: Hm, I was actually trying to talk about equality in general, using the army only as an example. But okay.

    I do not believe the moral imperative to treat people equally is mitigated by how hard it is to do so. Additionally, any inconvenience can simply be a backlash from being in an unjust state of inequality. So I can’t agree with you at all on that. …but I can’t really refute it, either.

    And what do disabled men have to do with this? If they are unfit for duty, they are discharged. If a woman is unfit for duty, she is not given a commission.

  • #946684

    Naysberg
    Member

    If you admittedly cannot refute torah613’s point, you ought to concede it.

    Additionally, the religious aspects are indeed part and parcel and very relevant to the discussion.

  • #946685

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Joseph: If I cannot definitively prove that there is a God, ought I concede that there isn’t?

  • #946686

    Well, according to pure equality, every man, no matter how fit, should be permitted to serve in the army if they wish to.

  • #946687

    OneOfMany
    Member

    I think we defined equality as relates to this discussion as “equal opportunity, with consideration of biological realities”? According to this definition, your sentence should read: Every man, no matter how fit, should be permitted to apply to serve in the army if they wish to.

  • #946688

    OneOfMany
    Member

    I’m wearing my Tzahal sweatshirt. ^_^

  • #946689

    LOL OOM. (or SNORT if you prefer 🙂 )

  • #946690

    WIY
    Member

    This was a fun thread.

  • #946691
  • #946692

    OneOfMany
    Member

    I am not b’davka for or against them. Joe seemed to think I was defending wearing them from an ideological standpoint, and I was trying to tell him that I wasn’t. I do own one and have no problem wearing it, but would not wear it in public as a statement because I have no statement to make.

  • #946693

    Got it now 🙂

  • #946694

    big deal
    Participant

    Oom: your statement of equality bothers me.

    Does everyone need to be treated equally if it causes an infringement on others rights? Where is the equality on that?

    Accepting women into the tzhal is destructive to men? Where are their rights? They dont have an option to get out.

  • #946695

    OneOfMany
    Member

    gonna quote myself for a minute here:

    Hm, I was actually trying to talk about equality in general, using the army only as an example.

    (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tzahal-sweatshirts/page/2#post-433896)

    We were talking about the concept of equality. The practicality of incorporation does not factor into the concept. And while the religious implications are definitely a sticky wicket in and of themselves, they are still irrelevant to what we were discussing.

    (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/tzahal-sweatshirts/page/2#post-433771)

  • #946696

    big deal
    Participant

    You make no sense. The question is if equality has a stand if uphoding it infringes on peoples rights. This is a genreal question.

  • #946697

    OneOfMany
    Member

    (a) Your question was not general. You qualified it in your second sentence in a way that makes your question specific to this case (i.e. women in Tzahal). I can answer your question in a general fashion (see ), but you will find it will not address the question you have in your mind.

    (b) Equality does not infringe on anyone’s rights. The expression of the equality (reverse affirmative action, etc.) may infringe. That does not, however, mean that equality does not “have a stand.”

  • #946698

    big deal
    Participant

    A) my question was general. I was just pointing out how it relates here.

    B) very clever. Simply put equality that infringes is not equality.

  • #946699

    OneOfMany
    Member

    No. Simply put, equality that infringes must be rectified to a state where it can be maintained without infringement.

  • #946700

    big deal
    Participant

    Ok. So when you say equality, what exactly are u equalling?

  • #946701

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Nothing. I am speaking in general terms.

  • #946702

    big deal
    Participant

    Generally if one has less rights than the other there is no equality

  • #946704

    OneOfMany
    Member

    Yes.

  • #946705

    big deal
    Participant

    Freedom would dictate that part of a persons right of equality and pursuing ones opportunities should be the right to not pursue. In israel where military service is mandatory there is no way to grant “equal rights” as you put it for many reasons other than religion that you refuse to discuss. The whole thing is propaganda.

    The proper term to use would be “acceptance” of all genders.

    If you want to discuss equal rights in a fair manneryou would need a new threadfor that. It doesnt belong under a thread titled tzhal.

  • #946706

    big deal
    Participant

    Sorry for typos im typing from mobile device.

    Also, hope u enjoy ur sweatshirt i did not mean to ruin it for u. :))

  • #946707

    swiet
    Member

    OneOfMany: Is it your contention that affirmative action (a/k/a reverse discrimination) is a form or iteration of equality? If not, how would you characterize it?

  • #946708

    writersoul
    Member

    I have a Tzahal sweatshirt. I also have a Coca Cola (or rather ???? ????) sweatshirt. Tzahal is a symbol of the State of Israel. Whether it is THE most moral and ethical organization in the world I will never know. (And for those who talked about the army and women, just read even a shtickel about harassment claims and more made against women in the American armed forces and training academies.) But Tzahal is also an organization that has defended the Jewish people (even if you forget for a moment about the Jewish State) for 65 years (yesterday). Its soldiers have, with the help of Hashem, been largely successful up til now, and there are so many soldiers who are moser nefesh every day to keep Jewish people safe.

    I’d say that’s why I wear a Tzahal sweatshirt, but it’s really ‘cuz my parents brought it back from Israel for me when I was in ninth grade and it’s my comfiest sweatshirt. But that is how I justify it.

  • #946709

    big deal
    Participant

    There is no comparison between Tzahal and Coca Cola. While coke is an advertisement looking to sell a product, Tzahal is an organization looking to buy souls.

    The existence of Tzahal is best described as a paradox. Yes, they are protecting the Jewish state yet as time goes on they expend much energy on making it less Jewish.

    Tzahal has been very successful both in defending Israel and in spreading their zionist propaganda among us.

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