Tznius Problem?

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  • #1356097

    JJ2020
    Participant

    From weddings to hair to buses there has been a lot of talk about tznius.

    So the question is what to do about this issue? I think there are three options:
    1. Increase observance in this area.
    2. Decrease observance in this area. (it will solve the shiduch crisis!)
    3. Do nothing.

    From what I have read on YWN the perspectivse dominating the debate is people from options 2 and 3. The main thrust has been bashing people who are trying to increase the level of tznius (option 1). Maybe there are those who think we should do option one but not go as far?

    Which of these approaching do you think will solve the problem and how will it do so? (or do you have other ideas)

    #1356490

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Any individual who finds good reason to increase their personal approach to Tznius will be fixing the alleged problem. Any group who wishes to educate on the matter will be successful if they do it with without being extreme, and by being compassionate. Any group who wishes to force another or cause social difficulty to another in an attempt to impose a different level of tznius may be able to blackmail or otherwise strongarm compliance, but will be damaging individual relationships with HKBH in the long term.

    #1356497

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    No problem of increasing Tznius – in a tznius fashion.

    #1356702

    If you think tznius is limited to weddings, hair and buses; you are missing the point. Modesty is a lifestyle, meaning not being ostentatious, gaudy, haughty, and in general walking around with an attitude that you are better than everyone else

    #1356424

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A good start would be for all the MEN constantly whining about the “tzinius crisis’ to step back this chodesh Elul and look in a good mirror and focus their musar internally. I can’t believe we have the most erliche male population among yidden today since dor ha’midbor and they have exhausted all opportunities for self-improvement in their emunah and hashkafah and thus the only issue left for them to focus their lives on is for women to become more machmir in their observance of tzinius.

    #1356753

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In other words, “Don’t give me mussar unless you’re perfect. Otherwise, leave me alone”.

    #1356770

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I don’t think people are bashing those who want to increase observance of tznius. Increasing observance means having more people follow the halachic rules.
    The issue people have is when others start changing the rules, and adding on stringency after stringency. There are halachos that define tznius. Let’s stick to them.

    #1356783

    RealityCheck
    Participant

    Tznius starts at a young age when the child is not yet old enough to appreciate the underlying importance and significance of the matter. When at that young tender age the child is educated with an extreme and oppressive approach (constantly badgering very young children with minutia – length of skirt/hair/accessories etc..) it builds up a negative attitude toward modesty and the child grows up with a bad taste toward tznius so much so that girls from age 7 or 8 will already start rolling up their skirts as soon as they are in the street. By the time they grow up they simply don’tw ant to hear anymore about tznius! It would go along way if the tznius education in the more “right” schools would be more toned down and subtle. This would result in more adult woman embracing tznius. (I realise my approach is only relevant to the “frum” segment of society)

    #1357200

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Gadolhador – when we see fault in others we are seeing something in ourselves. But as a community are we lacking in our observance in this area? Or should only the winners change? Or maybe kol Isroel areivim and we should help those having a hard time.

    #1357203

    I think in high school there should be in depth classes about tzniyis. In seminary we had an entire week dedicated to it. We had 10 lessons with a Rav and posek and we learned the halachot and hashkafa inside from the very first time it’s mentioned in the torah till today….

    We had many more classes… But yeah.

    #1357207

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Realitycheck- I’m hearing that being to overly machmir about tznius leads to people not even keeping more meikel opinions. Does this only apply to tznius? Or also Shabbos, kashrus and any other area? Or is there something specific about tznius?

    Could you elaborate on the extreme oppressive badgering? For example if girls wear skirts above the knee should this be let pass? Should the schools find new rabbinical boards to make less strict rules?

    #1357233

    If you think tznius is limited to weddings, hair and buses; you are missing the point. Modesty is a lifestyle, meaning not being ostentatious, gaudy, haughty, and in general walking around with an attitude that you are better than everyone else

    #1357258

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Shopping – it makes a whole lot of sense to do that in highschool. I would add the same thing regard boys should be done in yeshivahs.

    #1357259

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Sheaino yodeia – that’s true. Here I think the focus is more to the concept as it pertains to araos. But there certainty is lots of haughtiness and alot of overlap with these topics.

    #1357293

    arib
    Participant

    notice the men are making all the tznius rules i wonder why

    #1357322

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Arib – why do you think the men are making the rules? Besides that the men make all the rules. That is unless you are part of “open Orthodox”.

    #1357333

    chabadgal
    Participant

    I think the first focus should be on actual halacha, not setting hair length guidelines and skirts cant be more than one inch lower or higher then midcalf and shirt sleeves have to be bracelet length etc. Follow halacha thats all. And that includes as said before stuff other than dress.
    Also- Why is it often men pointing out the tznius issue? I don’t think it is right for a man to stare at a women to find out what shes lacking in tznius…

    #1357362

    Warrior
    Participant

    To all the man haters- YES men are “making the tznius rules” and yes men address the issue. You want to know why? Its because MEN are the ones who are AFFECTED by the issue! And dont give me that “men shouldnt stare at women”. All it takes is a split second to see someone pass by in front of your eyes or to see someone when you are walking. Should men wear blindfolds? What are you trying to prove by dressing like that? Are you that low on confidence? And chabadgal did you ever walk down kingston in the summer?
    Dressing in a super tight dress doesnt make it right just because its long.

    edited

    #1357367

    Tznius is for men too. walking around arrogant, in tight fitting expensive clothing is assur

    #1357387

    Warrior
    Participant

    Sheaino Yodeia Lishol- I completely agree with you girl. But what is the ratio between men in tight fitting expensive clothes to the womens tznius issues?

    #1357596

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Chabadgirl- halacha is full of fine detail. If you light candles one minute late you could be mchalal Shabbos and chayev miss. Do we say oh let’s not care about 1minute? If we aren’t holding at a certain level then we will be bothered by the details like many feel towards Shabbos CV.

    Men bring it up bc it’s causing men to do horrible avaros. They are trying to do the right thing. Everyone must do their part. Just bc men shouldn’t be looking doesn’t give a woman the right to dress how she wants. Many frum women don’t follow basic halacha such as covering knees and wearing tight clothes.

    #1357536

    RealityCheck
    Participant

    JJ2020 – “Realitycheck- I’m hearing that being to overly machmir about tznius leads to people not even keeping more meikel opinions. Does this only apply to tznius? Or also Shabbos, kashrus and any other area? Or is there something specific about tznius?”/ It could be this would be true about Shabbos , kashrus and other areas. However in those areas we don’t have this oppressive, aggressive overly exaggerated approach. I heard a Rav once complaining as to how there could exist a dichotomy where the husband looks like this wonderful frum yeshivash “avreich” and the wife is dressed inappropriately.

    Could you elaborate on the extreme oppressive badgering? For example if girls wear skirts above the knee should this be let pass? Should the schools find new rabbinical boards to make less strict rules?” I don’t think it’s that the rules need to change (though if a school has a rule that the skirt must be 15 cm lower than the knee, and they are measuring it with a ruler they might want to change that rule) as much as attitudes toward tznius education needs to change. Educating about tznius should be done with more tznius! If there is a serious issue with the way a particular girl is dressing it certainly should be addressed, but there is no need to make it seem like external tznius (and chumras at that) is the only yardstick with which to measure if a girl (starting at 3 years old in some schools) is a good Jew. Many schools hold to a high standard of Kashrus but you don’t hear them singling out kashrus and railing about it at every opportunity. Ditto with every other aspect of Judaism.

    #1357686

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Educating about tznius”

    I think this attitude is the problem . I dont think we should be educating about tzniyus, we should be focused on inculcating yoras shamayim into the next generation as well as giving over the”rules” hashem wants us to follow. someone with yiras shamayim will follow the rules. someone without yiras shamayim will look to circumvent them.

    #1357684

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “what is the ratio between men in tight fitting expensive clothes to the womens tznius issues?”

    When it comes to women and “tsnius issues” across all communities and neighborhoods, the problem is essentially the same. the complaints center around how they are dressed. too short, too tight, to bright, to loud, but, always about dress.

    When it comes to men though, it cuts across many areas and often different communities are plagued by just one or two. In some places it may be tight fitting expensive clothes, while in others it may be the expensive flashy tricked out suv or crossover. in others it may drinking and in others it may be technology (the flashy smartphone or smartwatch). in others it might be the “chilling” at mohecan sun and others the loud and sometimes inappropriate thursday night “chulent” get togethers (too often accompanied by several rounds of “kvitlach”where hundreds of dollars are won and lost weekly). In others it is the inappropriate drinking and gorging at kiddushim and simchos. So, if one would look at the ration of men who are inappropriate at a kiddush to women who dress inappropriately, or men who drive ridiculously expensive tricked out vehicles to the women who dress inappropriately (and this is true of all categories), sure the ration is much smaller. However, if you take all those vices together and compare ratios……

    #1357717

    Tzniyus is a mitzvah SPECIAL for women- if you don’t love it, educate yourself. You are an adult.
    And as a mom you are responsible for teaching your kids to have ahavah towards any mitzvah. So you gotta eduacte them.

    #1358713

    chabadgal
    Participant

    Warrior- super tight IS against halacha. But midcalf length is not required at all. There is a difference.
    JJ2020-I never said dont follow halacha, I said dont add on all your chumros and force other people to follow them.
    Also my school changed the skirt must be midcalf rule to it must be covering knees at all times and youu know what? Before people said were anyways not folowing the rules may as well be above knees. but now its a realistic length girls are actually following it.

    #1358712

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    For all of those who have a hard time doing something that shows consideration for the male portion of the population – why don’t you instead focus on how dressing unstzniusly hurts the female portion of the population – the wives of said men whose marriages you might be affecting?

    Also, if you dress untzniusly, maybe other girls/women who look up to you will follow your example and you will cause them to suffer?

    Or if you want to approach it from a positive angle, if you dress tzniusly, maybe other girls/women who look up to you will follow your example and you will be mezakeh them with more zchusim and more Olam Haba?

    Maybe you can be the role model who shows others how it’s possible to look great but still be tznius!

    #1358823

    I actually just went to get a few akirts hemmed. I bought 3 skirts last year for 10 bucks each at the endish of winter. They were good quality, and cute, thick, no irnoing, and you don’t pass that up here at an insane price!!! Skirts are usually 70 dollars or even more. The thing was they were supposed to be maxi, but wearing it at the hip proved to be like 6 inches down from the knee. I was debating between 3 or 4 inches…

    I never meassured my skirts. Ijust sat with them, stood with them, and used my eyes to decide if it was long enough. But yeah, chabagal I’ve been to both schools. Girls didn’t bother listening to it more or less in either.

    #1358832

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Ok so if long hair on schoolgirls is a problem what about shaitel length and style?

    #1358861

    TheGoq- that’s a problem too. Of crouse!!!!!!!

    #1359119

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Shopping – the lack of affordable tznius clothing is also an issue but maybe that depends on where you live.

    #1359152

    Joseph
    Participant

    Pritzus clothing is cheaper than tznius clothing?

    #1359228

    JJ2020
    Participant

    There are many cheap goish stores where you could by all kinds of non tznius clothes bc that’s what goyim wear. There is slot less tznius clothes. The frum stores charge alot more and often carry the same stuff.

    #1359254

    Growing up out of town I never entred a frum store in my life until the age 14, and I was very tzniyus thanks very much! There are shells! And non jews wear skirts too! Midi skirts are very in style, I very rarely buy things in “frum” stores.

    Plus money isn’t a factor, the women not being tzniyusdik have plenty of money to buy things from the mall and spend days there, plus money shouldn’t be that big of a factor in your spitituality. At least in this sense. You won’t die if you only own 5 weekdays shirts.

    #1359313

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    @shopping613, you must not be tall. Tall people, or people of average height with low knees, often have a lot of trouble shopping in the non-Jewish stores. Add the cost of alterations (to any clothes, even those from Jewish stores, which already carry a heavy price tag), and tznius clothes are very expensive, especially when accounting for the fact that you are unlikely to get a shabbos outfit for very cheap (weekday is another story). (None of this is an excuse for not dressing tznius. I’m just refuting the assertation that tznius clothes are not expensive.)

    #1359338

    Warrior
    Participant

    Does anyone even remember to wear leggings/tights anymore or is that already rules out of the tznius guidelines? Not having to cover midcalf probably includes leggings, without that im not sure it counts.

    #1359339

    arib
    Participant

    tznius is a problem how about medicaid fraud and stealing from the government is that an issue of course not as long as the mosdos get their money and scream about tznius

    #1359374

    Modesty
    Participant

    One Friday morning, about a month ago, I awoke late. The evening before, I was working till the wee hours of the morning and slept through my alarm clock. Staten Island, where I live, does not yet boast any late shacharis minyan so I got into the car and drove across the Verrazano Bridge to daven in a later minyan in the wonderful Munkatcher shul. What I didn’t count on was that parking erev Shabbos morning in Boro Park is a near impossibility. So, after circling for about 20 minutes, I took a risk and parked a little too close to a fire hydrant. I then proceeded to Munkacs where I found a wonderful minyan just waiting for me.

    Click Here!
    After davening a well-earned shacharis, I returned to my car to find a $115 ticket with the explanation that one has to be 15 feet away from the hydrant while I was not far enough. I, of course, was not pleased with the $115 penalty for being a few inches off the mark. But, after my initial disgruntlement, I began thinking that, l’havdil, that’s the way it works in Yiddishkeit. There is a sudden cutoff in many of our laws. If the sukkah is 10 tefochim high, around 40 inches, it’s kosher. If less, it’s posul. If you have 2.9 fluid ounces of wine, you have a reviis; if not, you can’t make kiddush. If the mikvah has 40 saah, then a woman can become tahor, pure; if not, she can’t. The candles need to be lit Friday at a certain time; afterwards it’s too late and sometimes a woman needs to light an extra candle every week for the rest of her life because she missed the cutoff.

    And that got me thinking about the Torah’s expectation concerning women dressing modestly. Above the elbow, below the elbow; above the knee, below the knee. It sounds like only a matter of a few inches but these inches are much more serious than a $115 parking ticket. In a pragmatic way, they can make the difference of whether a young girl will be eligible for an entire category of shidduchim or will be summarily rejected because of her cavalier attitude towards halachic modesty.

    It is so easy to say, “Let’s not quibble about a few inches.” “This is what’s available in the stores.” “All the girls are wearing this.” But, as we’ve seen, Judaism is all about inches. Whether it is a kosher eruv or it is too low is a matter of inches. And, the same thing applies to women’s dress. Many a young lady defends her practice hotly by declaring, “If it’s good enough for my mother, it’s good enough for me.” I’d like to point out that that’s not fair for many mothers did not have the advantage of a Beis Yakov upbringing like they did. And, because of this, more is expected from them. And, if you’re a married woman, remember that an elevated hemline will for certain attract the gaze of other men, especially the lewd notice of the goyim around us, which is something you pledged under the chuppah that you will save only for your husband.

    I’d like to sincerely appeal to the wonderful young women who are reading this article that, besides from a halachic standpoint which dictates laws of personal modesty, be a pragmatist and realize that by adding a few inches you open up for yourself an entire world of dedicated young men who are looking for chaste, modest, wonderful women.

    While talking about cutoff points, notwithstanding my late morning prayer davening, we should remember that there is a cutoff point in the morning by when we need to say Krias Shema called the zman Krias Shema. Since the saying of shema is our acceptance of the yolk of Heaven, we should try to get our daily acceptance statement right. So too in the evening, if we daven maariv early before tzeitz hakochavim, the coming out of three medium stars, we should be sure to say Krias Shema over again after the prescribed time which is, according to many opinions, 45 minutes after sunset.

    And while we’re on the topic of getting the time right, let’s try to plan our Chanukah parties around lighting the menorah at the proper time and not visa versa. Let’s remember that in the Beis HaMikdash, they tried all kinds of machinations and finally earned an open miracle in order to light the menorah. So let’s try, as much as possible, to structure our day, at least on Sunday, when many of us don’t have work, to light at the proper time.

    Finally, during these days when Shabbos is so early, let’s not flirt with possible chilul Shabbos by leaving work too late and getting onto the freeway where we are just one accident away, or one pothole repair crew, away, from getting stuck in the car at Shabbos’s onset. We pride ourselves on being shomer Shabbos, guardians of the Shabbos. To guard the Shabbos means we take no chances in getting stuck in a traffic jam right before Shabbos. In the merit of keeping the Torah’s measurement, may Hashem bless us with long life, good health, and everything wonderful.

    #1359380

    Warrior
    Participant

    @Mosdesty
    Well written.

    #1359384

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Modesty, copying and pasting that is intellectually dishonest.

    #1359419

    I’m 5’5. Just bought a skirt in a non jewish stores that reaches 5 inches below my knee, no joke.
    A line skirt- in black.

    #1359590

    Modesty
    Participant

    Very nice shopping613 that your able to where 5 inches below the knee. For me that’s to hard my skirts only cover my knees only when im standing
    I need to work first on my clothing not to be so thight fitted
    I find it very difficult since thight fitted clothing is so much more comfortable

    #1359676

    The little I know
    Participant

    In מיכה the posuk says, “והצנע לכת עם אלקיך”

    While much of the subject of tznius that we discuss is relevant to the interactions of people, the true tznius is actually a subject that is בין אדם למקום, not only בין אדם לחבירו. I think a sticking point that makes these discussions difficult is that the matters of tznius are no longer the individual following their responsibility to HKB”H, and living a lifestyle of being צנוע, but the rules and halachos have been relegated to requirements that are imposed, not just followed.

    It is not even about men making the rules for women (a gender issue that smells of feminism), nor is it about how men are affected more than women from visual stimuli (which is true). People are increasingly resistant to having restrictions placed on them by any outsiders, gender being irrelevant. The Lakewood school that got shmeared in the media, here on YWN, did not indicate that there were men involved at all.

    If all this stuff is to get resolved, the community needs to return to norms that have long been obsolete, where people did their best to be Yir’ai Shomayim, and follow halachos to the best of their ability, without the rule setting and impositions being made by various facets of the community.

    #1359739

    tznius is a mindset; not to walk around haughty

    #1359805

    770Chabad🌷🌹
    Participant

    Tznuis is not only dress but thought speech and action

    #1359814

    770Chabad🌷🌹
    Participant

    Dressing tznuis is equally important and mandatory

    #1359866

    Modesty
    Participant

    Tznius is a special mitzvah for us woman in place of learning Torah. we see the fact that it’s so hard for us just shows how much its worth. and no one should tell us that if we aren’t that great in other parts of the Torah why ore we focusing so much on tznius. we should continue to focus on tznius its our treasure just as the men constantly strive for learning Torah this is our way of bringing the shichina

    #1359927

    Modesty, learn more about it….I know it’s hard.

    Bezrat Hashem is should be in the zchut to find a good shidduch.
    Anyway, point is- you can find clothes. That’s not an issue.

    #1359943

    I think I saw or heard somewhere that a total tznius/Torah equivalence is a mistake
    based on a statement by the Vilna Gaon that women have tznius to counteract their
    yetzer hora in the way that men have Torah-study.

    #1360000

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Modesty, in that case the world is not fair to women. Dressing modestly is a restriction that is tolerable but not fun. Learning is a very enjoyable activity.

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