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I see your point rebyidd23 however I disagree we girls don’t have a power issue as I said earlier the unfortunate reality is that the yetzer hara created. he made it alot of fun for us to be not tznius don’t ask me how he did it i guess he has many years of experience
Modesty:
You wrote: :Another point that will help us improve on tznius is that the frum publications should allow pictures of women and girls.” I do not disagree, that the banning of pictures from publications is a misdirected energy that would serve Hashem better elsewhere. I disagree with your comment, as it is an agenda item that should not be part of this discussion. I believe your premise here is wrong. Let me explain.
Pictures glorify image. That is what they are intended to do. There is a place for this in Avodas Hashem. But that mandates restrictions and limits. I propose that this gets taken too far when Chassidic communities make issues of the photos of their Rebbes. I also frown on the use of photos as נויי סוכה. No, I am not among those that is against photography. We all have pictures of our children, families, simchos, and those of Gedolei Yisroel. But, again, there is a form of hero worship that can focus on pictures, and that is a perversion. I believe the mitzvah of לא תעשה לכם פסל וכל תמונה that is in the עשרת הדברות addresses this perversion, not that it prohibits cameras.
The beauty of a woman is referenced in Torah as a virtue. From the אשת יפת תאר to the descriptions of שרה, אסתר המלכה, as well as numerous mentions in שיר השירים, this concept is not strange to Torah. But to glorify the image is to detract from the other, far more important qualities that we need to have. I suggest that role models of tznius would be at home and school, as well as at simchos. The photograph is more likely to tease one’s value system that the appearance is priority. That is actually dangerous.
Again, I am not opposed to photos of women in the above mentioned magazines. I would sooner oppose lots of other things that are problematic to the community. But putting them in with high hopes ignores the other risk I described. Still, I do commend you for addressing this issue in a problem solving manner rather than just shouting someone down.
Modesty, all humans have a dark side that delights in destruction. That’s why humans are so attracteed to fire and explosions and holding their breath underwater.
The little I know
I see your point however in this generation all we see in the non Jewish media is girls of there kind inappropriately dressed (or not) we desperately need to counteract with pictures of women and girls dressing very tznius with pride. lets not fool our self the tznius level is only going down with every passing year we need to do something abot it. and as you say the negative impact that will come from pictures of women and girls however the positive out weighs the negative by farPerhaps this is worthy of a new thread, but for now I’m posting it here. Maybe it’s not a bad thing to go off topic for a bit…. in order to help people more intelligently communicate their opinions or thoughts!
This is a pet peeve of mine, based not in perfectionism, but in intelligent communication:Tznius is a noun!
It is not an adjective.To use it in a sentence:
a. Tznius is a good trait. b. One can have a discussion on proper dress, and proper behavior. That would be a discussion about Tznius. c. The topic in which we review, or teach, the Torah’s approach for proper presentation of ourselves in a way that does not attract attention is called Tznius.A noun is a word used as the name of a person, place, thing, state, quality, activity, action etc… The word Tznius is an abstract noun. (the name given to a quality or action or state which we can understand but we can not touch and see.) Other abstract nouns are hunger, and altruism.
A person can not be Tznius, just like a person can not be hunger or altruism.An adjective is a word that describes or modifies another word; usually a noun or another adjective. If we want to describe a person in any way, we need to use an adjective. In this thread, posters are trying to describe themselves or others, as having the trait of tznius.
In Yiddish an adjective was made out of the noun, using Yiddish grammar: That word is “TZNIUSDIK“. Tzniusdik is a word that DESCRIBES either a person, or a behavior, or a type of clothing.
A person can</can> be Tzniusdik Just like a person can be hungry or altruistic. (adjectives)For decades, in the United States, religious Jews who speak English have maintained yiddish terms for certain Jewish objects, practices, or ideas. We daven. We wash negel vasser. We fargin others. And we hopefully are Tzniusdik.
In Hebrew one would say that a person dresses or acts “Bitznius” (with tznius). There IS a descriptive noun in Hebrew for one who dresses or acts in this way. That person is a Tzanua צנוע (male), or a Tzinuah צנועה (female). The person would not be called a “tznius”.
It seems like the current generation has an aversion to using the Yiddish term, but they have not replaced it with an English one! I suppose it would be reasonable to say “I act or dress tsniusly” (an adverb describing the verb act or the verb dress). However, that term hasn’t taken off as of yet! I haven’t yet found anyone who has properly “Englishized” (my own made up term) the word tniusdik. Instead the Hebrew noun tznius is being used incorrectly as an adjective,
For those of us who typically use proper Grammar, hearing a noun used incorrectly, or as an adjective distracts from the subject just as much as this post distracts from the topic of the thread!
You may think you are not particular about grammar, but If someone said to you “I am Science”, instead of saying “I am a Scientist”, I’m pretty sure you would correct them! They are both nouns, but only the second one can be properly used in that sentence, with the word “a” before it. The sentence “She is tznius” makes no sense. Grammatically, you could say “She is a tniusist”, but that word hasn’t taken off either.
Furthermore, If someone said “He is hunger” instead of “He is hungry” you would likely correct their use of a noun (hunger) in place of an adjective (hungry). Otherwise, you would lose track of the rest of their thought, as your mind gets dsitracted by that incongruous statement. (How can he be hunger?)
I have not come up with an Englishized word for the Yiddish term tniusdik. which means “has the characteristics of tznius”, and is an adjective according to Yiddish Grammar.
hunger is to hungry as
tnius is to tsniusdik. But that is Yiddish.Modest, modesty, and modestly, are used by some, but they do not quite translate the Jewish concept of tznius satisfactorily! Can someone come up with a grammatically correct English ADJECTIVE derived from the Hebew noun tznius?
Until then, your language will be more intelligible if you just use the Yiddish adjective, instead of incorrectly using the Hebrew noun as a description!
Thinking out loud
Perhaps this is worthy of a new thread
It definitely is worthy of a new thread
This thread is to come up with idea’s on ge we can improve the level of tznius and enjoy this mitzvah
Not about grammar
However you are pointing out something very importantIn modern Yiddish and Yinglish, tznius is an adjective. Get with the times, or else use thee and thou except when using the plural form.
Modesty, the problem with pictures is that many different people have different ideas of tzniyus. I can understand that no matter WHAT they print, people will say it’s too tzniyus, not enough, etc.
I understand them, it’s easier to just not get into it. Try looking at people around you. Go to frum areas and make a game of looking for nicely dressed tzniyus people. Ask where they shop, ask them what inspires them, ask them for advice. I had 2 friends that did that but with short sheitals. They sat on benches in Jerusalem in busy areas and looked out for pretty short sheitals…and then approached women
Here’s a poem my friend wrote:
Wait-
Don’t shut down just yet.
No, really, don’t.
Hear me out,
Let me say something first –
It isn’t a dress code.
Yes, your school makes a big deal out of it.
Yes, your parents are always yelling at you about it.
Yes, I know, those girls look nerdy and you like fashion.
I know. Really. I promise.
But please just listen.
Just try to put every speech out of your mind that you ever heard about tznius.
What if you gave it a chance?
You might say you’ve done that time after time.
You’ve gotten that burst of inspiration and you’ve starting warming to the idea of being someone who is dressed stylish but modest.
And then something happened.
A comment.
A smirk.
A “who does she think she is?” look.
A lack of looks from the boy next door.
And suddenly, just like that, the inspiration left.
Vanished, without a trace.
And this time, you ran the other way, completely in the opposite direction.
But now, think for a moment –
All your talk about “being your own person” and needing to “stand out” and not wanting to be “controlled” by anyone?
That’s all an excuse.
You are controlled.
By the comments, the smirks, the looks, and the lack of looks.
You are letting everyone but yourself determine how you will look, act, and be.
Is that control?
I don’t think so.
Are you still reading?
Please hear me out completely.
Darling, you think you know it all about tznius, don’t you?
You think it’s old fashioned; archaic; prehistoric.
I don’t blame you.
They’ve presented it wrong.
They’ve never heard your questions or given you answers.
Of course you resent it.
No one would blame you for not wanting anything to do with tznius.
Notice I keep saying that word you despise so much – tznius.
Why, you may ask?
Because I want you to get used to that word.
That word is not them and their mistakes in giving it over.
Tznius is beauty.
It’s nothing if not beautiful.
How?
Well, let’s talk about it.
But first you have to let go.
Don’t let them control your feelings and thoughts about it.
I understand –
You’ve been offended and hurt and misjudged and looked down at.
But let go.
Take a deep breath and just take your foot off the pedal and let go.
Ready?
Are you looking at the word with a fresh perspective?
It seems different now, no?
Now, I won’t tell you all about how you’re a princess because unless you’re from England (which you might be!) that concept is totally foreign to you.
So I’ll just tell you that you are a person.
Yes, it’s that simple.
You’re a person.
You deserve respect and love and appreciation and you deserve to have someone knowing all about you and accepting you as you are.
So, yes, tznius.
Tznius is a character trait.
It isn’t a dress code and it should never have become one.
It’s not nerdy or uncool.
It’s not for losers.
It’s for someone who is a person.
It’s for someone who wants to be seen by the world as a person.
Something inside of you is resisting what I’m saying, right?
Why is that, you’re wondering?
Because everything you have ever heard about tznius made it sound like rules, and you’re a rule-breaker.
Everything you’ve ever heard about tznius made it seem restricting, ugly, suffocating and overwhelming, right?
It isn’t all that.
Tznius is freedom.
It’s being able to let go of their opinions and be yourself – you owe that much to yourself, don’t you think?
Tznius is like wine –
It’s an acquired taste.
Funny metaphor?
Not at all.
How is it an acquired taste?
It doesn’t mean some like it, some don’t.
Acquired means it is owned by you.
Acquired means it is something one gains for oneself through action and effort.
You have to let go of their opinions first, though.
You have to view yourself as a person.
And most importantly, you have to make it yours.
Own it.
“If nobody liked killing men, war wouldn’t have ever been invented.”
This is an absurd statement. Ever speak to a soldier? A police officer? anyone who has ever killed someone?
Slonimer, exactly! Your community standards apply to you. You are entitled to disapprove of other standards but as long as those standards have some reasonable rabbinic support, even a das yachid, they are still within the daled amos of Torah.
For instance, it is well known that many frum married women in Lite did not cover their hair which would, in our communities, constitute erva. The limud sechus on them was that in general practice, married women routinely went without hair covering so uncovered hair no longer constituted erva.Shopping613 great poam
I don’t understand your message please explain why tznius is freedom. You say in your poam that when you dress very not tznius its being controlled by others.
How is that? when I dress very not tznius i don’t feel being controled by others its just a lot of fun especially when you get a lot of attention and feel belonging to the club unfortunately I call that freedomRedleg, since you argue that a sleeveless community standard is acceptable since it is the standard, I’m wondering if you’d say the same about tanktops, if that is the community standard.
Regarding your point about Lita, Rav Yechiel Michel Epstein strongly wrote in his halachic sefer against those women you referred to and said it was totally inexcusable and wrong.
APY, the wheel was invented by a guy who liked rolling things, and the sandal was invented by someone who wanted to protect his feet. Yet nowadays wheels are used for transportation and shoes are a fashion accessory.
Shopping, that’s not a poem, that’s spaced out prose.
@modesty you should be proud to be tznuis and a frum yid.
Being tznuis is not only a mitzvah but a segula for healthy children , shudduchim, yiddishe (chassiddishe ) nachas arichas yomim and it’s also a shmira
(When u cover one more inch that’s another inch and idf soldier being protected and one inch less is one less soldier and less land being protected )הצנע לכת עם ה׳ אלוקיך ….
“How is that? when I dress very not tznius i don’t feel being controled by others its just a lot of fun especially when you get a lot of attention and feel belonging to the club unfortunately I call that freedom”
If you feel that you need to dress untzniusly in order to get attention from others, then you are letting them control you.
Modesty – I haven’t read all your posts, but based on the ones I’ve read, I think you really need to read Gila Manolson’s books and listen to Rav Orlosfsky’s cd.
However, I’m not sure if that will be enough.
I am a bit concerned about the way you seem to enjoy dressing untziusly and the attention you get from it. What bothers me is the fact that you assume that this is “normal” and that everyone feels that way.
There actually are many people who don’t feel that way. In fact, I think that most people I know would find that kind of attention demeaning. It may be normal to struggle with tznius to some extent, but it seems to me that if someone has such a pull to dress untzniusly and has such a strong need for that kind of attention, it might be kidai for them to look into themselves and try to figure out why they have this need and if there is another way they could fulfill it.
Are you a teen who’s looking to vent as I’m imagining it a married lady? I’m just curious there’s a book called Bas Melech you can read and hundreds of other books about tznuis it may seem boring …. but… maybe it will change your mindset
Being tznuis protects not only Israel but the soldiers too and by dressing it tznuis puts them in danger ….
There are two parts to a person – his neshama and his guf. The person’s essence is his Neshama. His guf isn’t him; it’s just a tool that Hashem gave him to enable him to do things.
If people are giving you attention because of your guf, that has nothing to do with you. They are ignoring you and focusing on your guf instead. That means they don’t really care about YOU.
If people really appreciated you, it would be “you” that they give attention to – your personality and middos and thoughts, NOT your guf.
If you are trying to get attention by dressing untziusly, it means you are not connected to the “Real You” – the things that make you unique and special.
You should try to work on figuring out what your “maalos” and strengths and talents are, and find ways to develop them and to “get attention” for those things. Even then, it shouldn’t be “attention” you are trying to get as much as “appreciation”.
I’m sure you have many wonderful qualities – you sound like a sweet, sincere person. Maybe you should work on appreciating your many fine qualities, and then you won’t have a need to dress untzniusly.
It also sounds like you may need to change your friends and the crowds you hang out in. Find people who appreciate others for their inner qualities – the real person.
Thinking out loud
Thanks
My pet peeve?
I am chasday lev.
Really?? You yourself are an organization?“Are you a teen who’s looking to vent as I’m imagining it a married lady?”
Or some bored guy, you never know who’s really posting.
True…..
Wow amazing great books by Gila manolson started reading over Shabbos outside inside. I, will get, to magic touch when I’m done with inside outside
I see how she shows that being tznius can be fun and there is what to appreciate
Climbing the ladder and hopefully I will get thereIyh u will tracht gut vet zein gut !
770Chabad
Being tznuis protects not only Israel but the soldiers too and by dressing not tznuis puts them in danger ….That’s a very powerful statement I guess if we are to blame for the tragedys in Isreal. Then we should be given full credit for every Peaceful passing day must be in the merit of us girls over coming the yetzer hara even if its just a little we are still accomplishing alot. This positive attitude will only help us improve. Let’s focus on the attention we are getting by saving the world when we are tznius. Hopefully should counteract the fun and attention we get from dressing very not tznius.
Jj2020 What do you mean by fun? What is is it about dressing that way that is fun?
Well lucky you I guess you were brought up different
For me getting attention and being part of the club is fun
Agree whith the other posts that I’m getting attention not the correct way
And there are lots of other ways to get attention
Well as I said earlier with prayer and working one step at a time
We all can get there and eventually we can say tznius level is going up with every passing yearHere is the source (and wording) if anyone wants
Excerpt of the Rebbe’s talk to Kinus Nshei Ubnos Chabad, Iyar 28, 5730 (1970):“.. And it should be as we have just read (in the Parsha), “You will live safely in your land” (plus every Jew where ever they find themselves) in a manner of “You will sleep without fear”, there will be no need for a watchman. . .because the Almighty watches, about whom it is said, “The guardian of Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps”.
For the this (above protection) we also need to observe tznius (modest dress), as the verse states “Since G-d, your G-d is accompanying your camp” (because) “he does not see any immorality in you”; when the Almighty sees that by the Jewish nation, wherever they are, there is no lack of tznius – then the Almighty is between them to “save you and to place your enemies before you”, that the Jewish needs to do nothing on its own, because the Almighty saves them, and with his own energy “Places your enemies before you”, that they are all destroyed, and fall before the Jews.
To the extent that “His enemies (of the Jewish nation) make peace with him”, and “I will grant peace in the land”, that the enemies are converted and become those who make peace and beg for peace with the Jews. . .”
Likutei Sichos vol. 8 page 226-227
so the state of Israel caused millions of Jews to drop any resemblance of Judaism, and you will dedicate a mitzvah (dressing tznius) to its protection???
Tznius is a huge nisayon. It is very hard to find tznius’dik, tasteful clothing, and it is even harder for those who live in-town, and have super-strong peer pressure to deal with.
However, we must realize that we cannot take our tznius challenges and be machati (cause to sin) others with these issues.
If your yetzer hora overtakes you when you’re in the store, and you buy a non-tznius’dik outfit; and then, your yetzer hora overtakes you when you’re choosing an outfit out of your closet, and you choose that non-tznius’dik outfit; and then, the yetzer hora overtakes you further by persuading you to use that non-tznius’dik outfit to get attention from men – at the very least don’t take this out on Jewish men who are battling their yetzrei hora in shemiras aynayim. Go to Time Square where men will be happy to give you such attention, but don’t bring it to a makom kedushah where Jewish men will inevitably sin and be upset.
Try to keep your avanos to a minimum as you do your avoda in battling your yetzer hora. Being machati others is a very grave sin.
From all my posts I’m not justifying what’s so ever the lack of tznius. All I’m saying that we are motivated by the yetzer hara each in their own way. And as we have seen criticism and bashing isn’t helping especially when it comes from men. We need to work on becoming motivated with different ideas. As a lot of the posts has mentioned different ideas lets keep up the positive wave amd we should merit to say tznius is going up (not down) with every passing year
Decrease tznius to solve the shidduch crissis? Um.. so much No.
I can’t be the only one having a hard time with that statement.
“Wow amazing great books by Gila manolson started reading over Shabbos outside inside. I, will get, to magic touch when I’m done with inside outside
I see how she shows that being tznius can be fun and there is what to appreciate
Climbing the ladder and hopefully I will get there”Amazing!!! I’m so happy to hear that. You WILL get there b’ezras Hashem! Just remember that it is a process, and don’t get discouraged by the inevitable setbacks as one attempts to grow in any area.
Growth is a process, and falling is part of the process. The main thing is not to get discourage when you fall, but to get right back on the horse. Discouragement comes from the yetzer hara.
Modesty – I hope that I wasn’t too harsh in any of my posts. I was trying to get the point across without being harsh, but if I didn’t succeed, I’m sorry and I hope you are moichel.
Kesiva v’chasima Tova!
“Modesty – perhaps the girls who are dressed modestly could take credit for times of peace not those who aren’t being tznius.”
JJ – +1! That’s probably a more helpful way to look at it!
And the fact is that there are constantly tremendous nisim in E”Y. Bombs that don’t go off, and missiles that land in the wrong places….
Maybe it’s in the zchus of the girls who do dress tzniusly. And maybe that can be an incentive for someone to dress tzniusly (if it helps her – everyone is different.) She can think about how each extra inch might be saving one life.
Lilmod Ulelamaid
I hope that I wasn’t too harsh in any of my posts. I was trying to get the point across without being harsh,
Not at all of these posts gave me chizuk
Although I still enjoy being very not tznius
But the books you recommend are really amazing. I can see myself ond day having fun by dressing very tznius
Kesiva v’chasima Tova! To all of youI love driving to McDonalds on Shabbos and eating cheeseburgers.
It’s so much fun.
I love driving to McDonalds on Shabbos and eating cheeseburgers.
It’s so much fun.
Very inappropriate even you feel that way it shouldn’t be saying that
Funny you should say that…
Meno Funny you should say that…
Not at all I finely got the message and there for I will say it in 3rd person
Even if she enjoys dressing very not tznius she shouldn’t be speaking like that its very inappropriateAh I see. So I’ll rephrase:
Meno loves driving to McDonalds on Shabbos and eating cheeseburgers.
It’s so much fun.
I will be a more clear
I regret saying those words now that I saw your message
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