Understanding the reasons for mitzvos

But isn’t the entire Torah sheBaal Peh dedicated to understanding the mitzvos and the reasons we do them?

No

torah she bal peh is about EXPLAINING the mitzvos in the torah not about helping you understand them.

Ever heard of a mitzva thats a “chok” ? its a mitzva that that we do because hashem commanded us even if theres no explanation & has no reason other then Hashem commanded us to do or don’t do something.
There are many “chok’s” in the torah.

Most of the Mishna and Gemara deals with the specific details of the Mitzvos, not the reasons for them.

often the way we deduce what the details of the mitzvos are is by understanding the reasons for them.

This is simply not true. Perhaps on rare occasion the gemara takes the logic of a mitzva into account, but it is certainly not often.

There is a famous Bais Halavi which explains the Rasha’s question in the Haggadah of “mah haavodah hazos lochem” as reflecting the view of the conservative movement who seek explanations for halachos and then abandon the halocha if the reason seemingly no longer applies. Thus the rasha says: I understand why our ancestors brought a korban pesach thousands of years ago- to show the destruction of the Egyptian god ,but, says the rasha, no one has believed in sheep as gods for thousands of years- so why bother continuing with the korban pesach?
However, says the Bais Halavi, the opposite is true. we don’t eat matzo or bring the korban pesach because of the events that transpired in Mitzraim, ; to the contrary, klall yisroel was zoche to yitzias mitzraim and to perpetual charus BECAUSE WE KEEP THE MITZVOS OF PESACH! If this were not so, why would we find that Avraham Avinu ate matzos on Pesach? The yidden had not gone into, much less left Mitzraim?
The answer is that the ultimate purposes of the mitzvos are not known to us. Of course the Torah says we eat matzo because of the chipozon with which we left mitzraim. But that is only one of countless unfathomable reasons for the mitzvah, or any other mitzvah.
It is for this reason that we answer the rasha ” bavur zeh asah Hashem li” ” it is BECAUSE of this mitzvah that we are and were zoche to geulah and chairus, not the other way around. Thus we are not merely pushing off the rasha but responding directly to his wrongheaded question which he sought to use to excuse his failure to perform those mitzvos he deems obsolete. The korbon pesach was part of the blueprint of the world and is eternal.
Having said that, the RAMBAM makes it clear that we are nevertheless encouraged to seek out the purposes of each mitzvah. However, we must bear in mind that the ultimate purpose of mitzvos are beyond our comprehension ( aish shachor al aish lavan). We keep the Torah because it is what Hashem commanded us to do- and recognize that each mitzvah will bring benefit beyond our comprehension to the one who performs the mitzvah, to klall yisroel and the entire world.

thinker123, many miforshim are not of the opinion that the Avos kept the entire Torah.

Who? It’s stated in Chazal. Some meforshim say not in the precise form as after matan Torah, but they don’t argue with Chazal.

Mod, you wrote <span style=”color: #ff0000″>Edited – Formatting</span>, instead of
<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Edited – Formatting</span>.

I don’t think that was the problem. I tried fixing it like you said and it still doesn’t work…

DY

“Who? It’s stated in Chazal. Some meforshim say not in the precise form as after matan Torah, but they don’t argue with Chazal.”

Anybody.

Of course they didnt literally keep the entire Torah.
sippur Yitzias mitzrayim?
Michiyas amalek?
writing a sefer Torah?
building a mishkan/beis hamikdash?
appoitning a melech
Giving a get?
Yibum and chalitza?
Ben soreh umoreh?
doing the Avoda
Giving Teruma/maasros?
Eating teruma bethara?
etc etc
Yes Im sure there are vertelach about some of the above. And soem might be easier to answer than others

Nobody can literally keep the entire Torah some mitzvahs are exclusivly for Kohanim some exclusively for non-kohanim.
All the more so the avos, with no sanhedrin, beis hamikdash, kohanim leviim etc..

Ubiquitin, you quoted my qualification but ignored it.

As you said, no single person was ever able to keep all 613, but that’s not the point. The point is that just as you and I try to do, they kept all they could.

“you quoted my qualification but ignored it.”

I’m sorry about that
I commented on that too, but for I guess deleted it leaving behind the mysterious word “Anybody”
Glad we agree.

Interesting, ubiquitin-I’ll take your challenge. 6 of the mitzvos on your list are ones we cannot do today either. (And according to chazal no one ever did the mitzva of Ben Soreh Umoreh, since it never happened, that makes 7) We also have no sanhedrin, no beis hamikdash, etc. Yet, the general statement that Jews keep the Mitzvos today is still valid.
The mitzva of maaser is attributed to Yitzchak Avinu, by the way.
Yehuda and sons did a type of yibum.
and what about “Im Lavan garti, vtaryag mitzvos shamarti”?

Even if we argue about the extent to which the avos kept the mitzvos, the fact that there is such an opinion with many chazals supporting it, indicates that we cannot take the “reasons” at face value.

The point is, it is not that we should not be exploring the reasons of the mitzvos as much as we can, but that we should not base our willingness to do them on these reasons. Naase Vnishma means that we do no matter what, then we can delve into understanding the mitzvosto enhance our observance.

gefilte,

I often hear people say you shouldn’t try to understand the reasons for mitzvos, rather you should just do them because Hashem says so.

Sometimes the Torah gives us the reason for a mitzva. Sometimes, especially for many bein adam l’chaveiro mitzvos, the reasons seem evident. But for most mitzvos, no reason is given at all, and we cannot fully understand why it was given. The risk of inventing reasons for mitzvos that sound good to us, is that we can unintentionally cheapen the mitzvos by replacing Hashem’s infinite wisdom with our limited wisdom in a desire to ascribe meaning to things. And if our finite wisdom subsequently changes, we might CV”S see the mitzva “based” on that wisdom as obsolete.

But isn’t the entire Torah sheBaal Peh dedicated to understanding the mitzvos and the reasons we do them?

No. The oral Torah and our traditions based on it are dedicated to understanding how to do the mitzvos.

After all, understanding the reasons for mitzvos often helps us determine who/when/what circumstances the mitzvah applies.

And that’s precisely the danger. We can’t invent a reason for a mitzva and then use that invented reason to say the mitzva does or does not apply here or there. And even if a reason for a mitzva was given to us, we cannot throw it out because we now think that reason no longer applies. You will not see fish and meat together on my plate, even though non-Jews eat gumbos and “surf and turf” all the time with no visible sakana.

ubiquitin,

I skimmed through that thread, and if anything it strengthens my question to you. Not a single poster in the thread claimed that the Avos literally kept every single one of the 613 mitzvos, i.e., giving terumos to a kohen and then eating them in a pure place as a kohen.

The strongest assertion in there was by dafyomi2711, that the Avos had the same Chumash, Mishna, and Gemara that we have, and therefore, they would do the mitzvos exactly how we do them today. He was quickly stymied by questions from on the ball, however, and subsequently accepted that the Avos may have had a different perception of the Torah than we do today, and even followed mitzvos differently.

I think the source of your bother is a misconception.

ubiquitin,

first of all, I interact with people in real life too.

I’m sure you do, but the only supporting example you brought was that thread, which wasn’t really a good support.

Secondly “Not a single poster in the thread claimed that the Avos literally kept every single one of the 613 mitzvos”

not quite, as you identify one poster who DID claim that, read through it there were few others as well.

Nope, sorry. I did read through it. And again, the strongest assertion that was made was that the Avos followed the mitzvos the way we follow them today. If you think I missed something, supply a quotation.

Though the Rayah turned out to be from “Im lavon Gart ves Taryag Mitzvos shomarti” (too people not think that Rashi is well known?) He called me a Kofer when I said that Rashi (and the midrash he was quoting couldnt be literal)
He wasnt the only one.

You and the Wolf need new acquaintances, that’s for sure! However, you seem to think that posters in the thread you linked to above are making the same point, which is not the case.

“’m sure you do, but the only supporting example you brought was that thread”

Sorry, I didint record the conversationg in real life.

” which wasn’t really a good support.”
I disagree., as do you see below.

” And again, the strongest assertion that was made was that the Avos followed the mitzvos the way we follow them today. ”
Yes and that sint true. For example we are mikayem pidyan haben which the Avos didnt as there were no kohanim.
Im confused are you saying nobody there said this ?

“You and the Wolf need new acquaintances, that’s for sure!”
Agreee

” However, you seem to think that posters in the thread you linked to above are making the same point, which is not the case.”
Read my discussion with Halevai, on that thread. As I understood him and he seemed to be understanding me he was arguing that the Avos literally kept the entire mitzvah. At no point does he say he doesn’t literally mean the entire Torah.

Again if you think i misunderstood him. Im not that invested in this, that isnt really my . Fine Nobody on YWN ever understood that Gemara as being absolutely true in a literal sense.

Ok I accept.

“They did exactly what we would do if we didn’t have kohanim.”

I dont know what that means. We do have kohanim. and If we didint (or if a person doenst have a bechor) then he is never mikayem the mitzvah

“The best example of them not keeping kol haTorah kulah is Yaakov Avinu marrying two sisters,”

“the best” is subjective. While it is a good question since you cant use your cop-out “They did exactly what we would do” I think the best is the Mitzvah to write a sefer Torah and a close second is Zechiras AMalek.
I suppose you can say that Yaakov wrote a sefer Torah but didnt pay attention to the words and Avrham “remembered” what the a nation that hadnt been born yet did.
But those are very far fetched. Though arguably guess these mitzvahs fall into the category of “where the ability to do the mitzvah isn’t there”

But I dont think I at any tiem disputed that

“without rejecting the gemara.”
I dont reject it either.

Gefilte started this subthread by challenging Winnie the Pooh’s point, for which she gave the example of the Avos eating matzah on Pesach.

Does anyone disagree that they ate matzah on Pesach?

“It means if we didn’t have kohanim we would do piyon haben either”

I know what the words mean. I dont get what you are getting at.
Yes I agree they kept the Mitzvos that they could. Ie not all 613. I thought I was clear on this

” I don’t know why you think it’s far-fetched.”

I think that they wrote a sefer Torah and remembered what Amalek did is far-fetched. dont you?

“Does anyone disagree that they ate matzah on Pesach?”
not me.

WTP
“but there was a concept of kohanim”
“concept of Kohanim” arent kohanim. I f I redeem my bechor with a big tzadik who I say fullfils the “concept of khanim” you would say (correctly) that I didnt do the mitzvah

“Mechiya amalek”

I didnt mention mechiyas amalek, I said Zechiras Amalek, which we can (and do) do in the literal sense, but I dont beleive the avos where able to. (Yes as DY points out because it was impossible, otherwise they would have done it)

” I would suggest that perhaps the Avos were able to fulfill the mitzva in a non-literal sense”.

Again, so they did int literally do it.

“(I took “bullet points” literally I think it makes it easy to read keeps it short and to the point while covering the key information)”

So I met MalkiTzedek the other day, (he is really old) can i give him pidyon haben money? and If I do am I mikayem the mitzvah of pidyon haben?

“that does not mean they did not keep the mitzvos.”
I never said otherwise

BTW Avram if you are still reading, note WTP who correctly points out that we agree, still says “the form PROBABLY differed from the literal sense that we are familiar with now.”
ITs this hesitency and equivocating that throws me off.

Back to the OP, when people say we shouldn’t try to understand the reason, that is as a response to doing things because of your understanding.

לכל תכלה ראיתי קץ, רחבה מצותך מאד.
Although obviously there is a reason for each Mitzvah, we don’t, and cannot, understand the full reason even for a relatively well-understood Mitzvah.

Most of Torah Shel Baal Peh is about learning the exact classification of a Mitzvah and therefore how it applies. We can then draw an understanding built upon its Halachos.

And so, it is important to realize first and foremost that your motivation to act is because Hashem commanded you to do so. Then, on top of that, the more you understand about the Mitzvah accomplishes more.

But it is important never to think that the reason at hand is the reason. I know of a certain Tzaddik who preferred as a Baal Toke’ah someone who didn’t know the Kavanos of the Arizal. This way he can’t mess up.

So, think of it as a base, which is about being an Eved Hashem, and on top of that many understandings, meditations, and achievements.

ubiquitin,

Sorry, I didint record the conversationg in real life.

In your follow-up, you did paraphrase a conversation you had, and that’s fine. But your lead-off example (and people usually lead off with a strong example) didn’t seem to match the point you were trying to make.

Yes and that sint true. For example we are mikayem pidyan haben which the Avos didnt as there were no kohanim.

Ah, now the goalposts are moving. I understood your original statement to be that you are bothered by people who believe the Avos somehow literally kept all 613 mitzvos, a feat that is technically impossible for a single individual to do, in any historical period, since certain mitzvos are dependent on identity, place, and time (e.g., an individual cannot both offer the pesach and pesach sheini). This is a very strange notion, and I probed you on it a few times to make sure I understood, and you confirmed it each time. That notion, however, is quite different from an argument that the Avos kept the mitzvos the way we do today, or rather, the way our forefathers did in the days when the Beis Hamikdash was standing. If you want to switch your argument to that, then fine, we agree.

Im confused are you saying nobody there said this ?

Nobody there claimed that the Avos performed the impossible feat of keeping all 613, simultaneously being Kohen Gadol, Kohen, Levi, Yisroel, male, female, have a brother pass away childless, being tahor and on time on the 14th of Nissan, and simultaneously not, etc. The strongest claim was that the Avos performed mitzvos like a regular Jew, and even these claimants were quickly refuted.

Read my discussion with Halevai, on that thread. As I understood him and he seemed to be understanding me he was arguing that the Avos literally kept the entire mitzvah. At no point does he say he doesn’t literally mean the entire Torah.

I’ll reread it, though I don’t recall him making that point. Looks like he’s here to respond himself as well, so I’ll read that with interest too.

Again if you think i misunderstood him. Im not that invested in this, that isnt really my .

Ksssshhhh <crackle> Houston! You’re breaking up! Kssssshhh I didn’t fully receive your last transmission! Please repeat your message! Ksssshhhhh

Fine Nobody on YWN ever understood that Gemara as being absolutely true in a literal sense.

Ok I accept.

What?? You’ll go back and forth with Health dozens and dozens of times, but I get this? Guess what! I have a supreme court case that backs me up! Pay me a million dollars and I’ll give you the name of it!

ubiquitin,

HaLeiVi himself writes in this very thead:

Yes, we all know by now that Aggados are very deep and aren’t necessarily meant to take at face value. This is step one. We see a strange Maamar and we understand that it is something deeper than what meets the eye.

Doesn’t sound like his position is anything like what you say it is.

My reference to Geonim Paskening based on reasons of Derabanans is in Kedushin 45b in Tosafos. As you can see there, Rishonim had an issue with that.