Unfiltered Internet

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  • #603463

    shein
    Member

    Who here has unfiltered internet, at home or work, and what is your justification (if any) for having unfiltered internet?

  • #876568

    Logician
    Member

    Me. ‘cuz I like to look at schmutz. Then I come to the CR and make of fun of citifield.

  • #876569

    147
    Participant

    I invest in a filter on my faucet, so this takes care of my Chiyuvim as well as budget towards filters.

  • #876570

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I didn’t think it’s a wise thing to proclaim out and in the open so boldly. Wait at least until after the Asifa.

    ???? ??? ??? ????? ????

    It borders on chilul HaShem.

  • #876571

    writersoul
    Member

    Ummm…. nice and relevant topic! And not at all personal— no, definitely not personal!

  • #876572

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I have unfiltered internet at work. My justification is that that’s the policy that the IT department has implemented and I am in position to be making demands regarding the IT policy of a large multinational corporation.

    Yes, I know that that makes me a worse rasha than Hitler, Bilaam, Pharoah and Haman combined.

    The Wolf

  • #876573

    shein
    Member

    Wolf, at home do you have a filter that operates when you use the computer?

    What about on your internet-enabled cellphone?

  • #876574

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, at home do you have a filter that operates when you use the computer?

    Yes

    What about on your internet-enabled cellphone?

    No. But we already agree that I’m a horrible person who is detested by any and all who come into contact with me and who has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

    The Wolf

  • #876575

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    My apple barks at me

  • #876576

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    yech- I hate filters of any kind…..unfiltered apple juice is much healthier…unfiltered OJ is delicious…..unfiltered water…oy, I am drinking little crabs!

  • #876577

    Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    42 : mine too. and so do my kids sometimes.

  • #876579

    Naysberg
    Member

    How can a cellphone, that is not a smartphone, that uses a java browser like Opera Mini be filtered? As far as I know it can’t be done.

  • #876580

    I’ll be honest: yes, I do have unfiltered internet.

    Several reasons:

    1) I speak numerous languages and use content in numerous languages. I doubt most filters know more than 1 language (English, in general).

    2) I am an IT specialist and could easily bypass any filter. I don’t like to boast, but honestly, a filter wouldn’t stop me. Or maybe it would, in which case it would damage my work. Part of my job is that I have my own lab system running at home (with about 30 devices, physical and virtual), running enterprise-grade software and accessible by VPN from outside. The system being accessible via VPN from outside means VPN the other way would also work, thereby bypassing any ISP filtering. Software filtering would easily fail if after connecting to that VPN you would connect somewhere else via RDP (for example some desktop at work if connect by VPN into the company network and access some virtual desktop by RDP there).

    Thus, the only thing a filter would mean for me would be a potential hassle and bother to my ability to work, and at most an inconvenience should I ?”? want to access any inappropriate content. Meaning it’s a lose-lose situation and meaning I’m not going to do it, ever.

  • #876581

    shein
    Member

    Baruch Hashem I see that no one has defended unfiltered internet.

  • #876582

    chaimboruch
    Member

    I have a quasi-filter, i use the filtering that is installed on my computer with my anti-virus– is that good?

  • #876583

    jbaldy22
    Member

    if you work in IT it is very hard to use a filter – i know that in my case using a filter could cost me thousands of dollars if it decides to block the wrong site at the wrong time. i do a lot of my work from home so i dont have the luxury of being able to filter.

  • #876584

    shein
    Member

    jbaldy, can you please explain specifically how you can lose thousands of dollars if a site is filtered? If it is mistakenly filtered, it can be removed from the filter.

  • #876585

    jbaldy22
    Member

    Lets say i am running a web scraper and the filter decides to filter out a site – can u not see how that could cause a huge monetary loss. i need to deal with a plethora of new sites and correcting the filter every time is highly impractical. in addition the market moves very quickly and there have been plenty of times where huge losses would have resulted if a website had been mistakenly blocked.

  • #876586

    shein
    Member

    Specifically how can it cause you a huge monetary loss?

  • #876587

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Those who claim that they need unfiltered internet – Am I correct to assume that a monitoring system such as Web Chaver would not get in the way?

  • #876588

    lakewhut
    Participant

    My justification is that I have a brain. I’ll admit I used to not be able to control myself when I was younger. But I overcame my addiction and have self-control.

  • #876589

    lakewhut
    Participant

    people are going to look for ways to get around the filter.

  • #876590

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Read this:

    Remember a few weeks ago how the Australian government was getting ready to spend many millions of dollars on internet porn filters? We ridiculed the second part of the plan, which was to force ISPs to filter the internet, but the first part of the plan was to hand out free client-side filters that could be installed on computers by parents. The cost to the government was a mere $84 million Australian (about $70 million US). It should come as no surprise, though, that a teenager claims it took him all of about half an hour to crack the filter. Even better, he says he did so in a way that the icon still shows on the computer, so parents will think the software is still working. Of course, there are always ways to get around filters and it’s not hard for many kids to figure them out. Still, rather than recognizing that the government has wasted many millions of dollars on a futile program, one of the main political backers of the program said it only highlights why the country needs to spend even more on filters, including those ISP filters that won’t work either.

  • #876591

    Toi
    Member

    i no longer post but that post by lakewhut needs to be edited. i feel that this site can no longer be called clean for bnei torah.

  • #876593

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    “people are going to look for ways to get around the filter.”

    According to your previous post, not people with a brain.

  • #876594

    DaasYochid
    Participant
  • #876595

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some people make incomes off ebay, Amazon, Yahoo and others.

    These sites have been filtered. Satmar bans Yahoo for example because there is entertainment news

  • #876596

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @shein i understand from your answer that you do not work in the tech industry – the way a scraper works you may never know if or why something is being blocked by a filter unless you carefully analyze the results and a lot of deals are extremely time sensitive if you speak to someone who works as in the tech industry they will probably do a better job of explaining it to you.

    @daasyochid try telling your boss/investors that you want someone looking at your history and see how far that gets you. (especially if you work for a data aggregation company)

  • #876597

    writersoul
    Member

    While I don’t fully agree with lakewhut, I believe that a lot of people are missing the boat— before you can ban or filter, you need to teach about SAFE INTERNET USE.

    There was a lecture by R Zecharya Wallerstein going around, and it talked about a really horrible thing that happened to a girl because of someone she met on the internet. I cannot even come close to understanding the tzara that this family is going through, but the thing that irked me was that R Wallerstein kept saying, as a persistent refrain, “Get off the internet.” Why did that irk me? Because that wasn’t the moral of the story.

    I will not be going into the story, but even from what I’ve said already, the moral is clearly DON’T TALK TO STRANGERS! Whether on the internet or in real life! Whether male or female (because there is a potential, possibly slight but still there, that they are not the one they say they are)! So what does it mean, that if someone can get kidnapped off a bus we shouldn’t ride buses?

    We need to educate teens (and, quite frankly, adults, if only that they can stay alert to the dangers) about using the internet RESPONSIBLY.

    1) Only “friend” people you know (call them to confirm that they “friended” you)

    2) Do you really need social networking? I’ve always wondered why people do.

    3) Don’t talk to strangers! Don’t tell them your name! Don’t give them your email address! Just DON’T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!

    4) Memorize #3

    Honestly, if you ask any kid, they will know that they’re not allowed to talk to strangers, take candy from strangers, etc. But do they understand not to talk to strangers online? That is really what we need to make sure, even before we talk about filters and stuff like that, because it’s just sechel, and because there will always be kids who will break the filters. They need to be educated and KNOW about the dangers, or you’re just leaving them, not knowing how to swim, in the middle of an ocean filled with man-eating crocodiles.

  • #876598

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Why not?

  • #876599

    akuperma
    Participant

    I use unfiltered telephone (I hang up anything I don’t want to hear) and unfilterd mail service (I throw stuff straight into the wastepaper basket if I dont’ want to read it). We deal with unfiltered books (we don’t look at “inappropriate one”). We try to deal with unfiltered people (anyone have any success not hearing Loshon Hora?).

  • #876600

    dash™
    Participant

    Lets say i am running a web scraper and the filter decides to filter out a site – can u not see how that could cause a huge monetary loss. i need to deal with a plethora of new sites and correcting the filter every time is highly impractical. in addition the market moves very quickly and there have been plenty of times where huge losses would have resulted if a website had been mistakenly blocked.

    Anyone in the position of running a business critical web scaper hopefully has enough sence to run it on a computer othan than the workstation used for daily work.

  • #876601

    jbaldy22
    Member

    why exactly – u assume that u are aware of everyone’s business needs – todays workstations are more than capable of handling many tasks in a secure environment through virtualization in addition much of my testing is done on a workstation especially at home.

  • #876602

    TheMusicMan
    Member

    Someone needs to invent a specialized browser that filters in-the-box, and disables all other browsers . Such a system should be set remotely from some server operated by some chassidish-type fellows, and to change your filter status at least a dozen emails should need to be sent back and forth, so a kid cannot change settings by sneaking the password from his parents, or by hijacking their email and sending status changes to an automated server. The browser should also feature https filtering, so it could not be bypassed by using https proxys. All filters can be bypassed, but this would need the actual programming implementation to be modified, and there are very few people who can do that.

  • #876603

    Csar
    Member

    Stop looking for excuses.

  • #876604

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    @daasyochid try telling your boss/investors that you want someone looking at your history and see how far that gets you. (especially if you work for a data aggregation company)

    Have your boss check your history.

  • #876605

    shmoel
    Member

    The Gedolei Yisroel announced at the Kinus last night that the poskim across the United States, Eretz Yisroel and the world have issued a binding psak din upon Klal Yisroel that unfiltered internet is assur under any and all circumstances.

    There is nothing to discuss. Unfiltered internet is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.

  • #876606

    Feif Un
    Member

    Really? Which poskim would those be? The ones from the groups they didn’t invite? Was R’ Schachter asked his opinion? What about R’ Aharon Lichtenstein?

  • #876607

    Health
    Participant

    shmoel – Ok; and they will throw out kids from school whose parents have the Net because they said All Net is Assur. The only Heter for a filter is for Parnassa.

    Poskim across the United States, Eretz Yisroel and the world have issued a binding psak din upon Klal Yisroel that smoking, driving without seatbelts, driving while talking on the cell, being an alcoholic, not wearing a helmet during sports activities, not wearing a reflector at nite, reckless driving & excessive speeding

    is Assur under any and all circumstances. And let’s not forget that most people while talking on the regular telephone to their friends end up speaking LH.

    There is nothing to discuss. All the above things are eating Chazir and having a Treif kitchen.

    If they decide to throw out e/o who does any of the above things, perhaps there will be one or two people left in every Yeshiva.

  • #876608

    I have a filter. It’s behind my eyes and between my ears.

  • #876609

    cherrybim
    Participant

    akuperma – “I use unfiltered telephone…”

    While I attended the Asifa and have mixed opinions about it, I could not have said it better than akuperma did.

    “…unfiltered internet is assur under any and all circumstances…Unfiltered internet is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.”

    Excuse me, but I will take these words seriously when I hear the poskim and Rabbonim proclaim publically to their flocks, their chasidim and talmidim; that smoking is assur under any and all circumstances, and that smoking is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.

    We all know that smoking is the cause of early death, young widowed wives and orphans, kids off the derech, broken famalies, money and sholom bais problems; to name a few. So how about it G’dolim, with all due respect?

  • #876610

    cb1
    Member

    Unfiltered internet is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.

    Is that considered a heter to eat chazir?!?! (I have always wanted to eat chazir, my non-jewish co-workers claim it tastes like heaven 🙂 )

    Or does it mean that if i have unfiltered internet, then i’m going straight to gehenom?? In any case, I did not go to the asifa yesterday, nor will i remove my fb & twitter accounts. I will also not put on a filter in my office due to the fact that the business cannot run with a filter, and i won’t put on a filter in my home because i believe i’m old enough to differentiate between good & bad and stay away from the bad.

  • #876611

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Really? Which poskim would those be?

    R’ Shmuel Halevi Wosner, for one. R’ Chaim Kanievsky also released a written psak to the same effect.

  • #876612

    Sam2
    Member

    Feif: I was told Rav Schachter wanted to go and was asked not to attend. Anyway, he is very Machmir on the internet as well. I believe he says that your computer should have a password and only your roommate (not yourself) should know the password.

  • #876613

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Was R’ Schachter asked his opinion? What about R’ Aharon Lichtenstein?

    Did they said a differing opinion?

  • #876614

    Kosher Ham
    Member

    I’d like to use a filter, but there’s no filter available for my A1200 computer.

  • #876615

    cherrybim
    Participant

    There was one YU Rosh Yeshiva on the dais.

  • #876616

    @daasyochid – “Those who claim that they need unfiltered internet – Am I correct to assume that a monitoring system such as Web Chaver would not get in the way?”

    1) Would it work inside VMs?

    2) Would it work inside RDP windows?

    3) Does it support Red Hat? Or Solaris?

    Based on what I understand, the answers are no & no & no. Can anyone tell me of any filter that will support the above? Nope, you can’t, because it doesn’t exist. End of story.

  • #876617

    shmoel
    Member

    Between having unfiltered internet in ones home or office or rather having pork in your fridge, unfiltered internet is far worse. No one will talk themself into that the pork is kosher. If someone observes your pork filled fridge, he won’t mistaken that pork might be kosher. OTOH, if you have unfiltered internet, you probably think that’s kosher. And you might be nichshal others to think it’s okay.

  • #876620

    AZ
    Participant

    DY:

    For the sake of clarification, Rav Wosner and Rav Chaim did NOT issue the same psak, not even REMOTELY similar.

    I WISH Rav Wosner (and the rest of the speakers would have said what Rav Chaim wrote).

    The take home message would have been SO powerful and SOOOO effective, and (thats what i had been told was THE goal and was going to be THE message.

    Alas it was NOT the message, and thus it wasn’t so powerful and i’m petrified that it won’t be so effective..

    How very sad……

  • #876621

    I use unfiltered telephone (I hang up anything I don’t want to hear) and unfilterd mail service (I throw stuff straight into the wastepaper basket if I dont’ want to read it). We deal with unfiltered books (we don’t look at “inappropriate one”). We try to deal with unfiltered people (anyone have any success not hearing Loshon Hora?).

    But if there was filtered telephone, mail, etc. I would sign up. So would others.

  • #876622

    uneeq
    Member

    Unfiltered internet is eating chazir and having a treif kitchen.

    Last time I checked, after the chasimas ha’gemoro no further gezeiros can be made.

    “??? ??? ????? ??????”

    You may argue that somehow a gezeira can still be made nowadays, but at the end of the day, an issur robbonon is not a issur de’oraysa no matter how important it may be to keep it.

  • #876623

    Csar
    Member

    AZ:

    Can you please clarify your point? How was Rav Wosner shlita and Rav Chaim shlita’s psak different?

  • #876624

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    AZ,

    I saw R’ Chaim’s psak, but only heard R’ Wosner’s second hand. Can you please elaborate?

  • #876625

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Based on what I understand, the answers are no & no & no. Can anyone tell me of any filter that will support the above? Nope, you can’t, because it doesn’t exist. End of story.

    So I guess you’ll be finding yourself another means for parnassah. Good luck.

  • #876626

    Csar
    Member

    Reading tidbits, it seems Rav Chaim is saying it is only permissible to use the internet with a filter. Without a filter it is assur to use the internet. Rav Wosner seems to be going a little further and saying it is assur to use the internet for personal use at all (i.e. having internet at home), even with a filter. But for business use, it is permissible with a filter. Both say that to use the internet at all, even with a filter, one must first ask their Rov a shaila about their personal need for the internet, and obtain a heter, if permissible, for them to use the internet (with a filter).

    AZ, is that a good understanding of the psak din of the gedolei haposkim?

  • #876627

    brech
    Participant

    We are told that we must, al pi halacha, use a filter if we use the Internet. But what kind of filtering is mandatory?? If we get a simple filter that only blocks out the seven dirty words that is illegal to broadcast over the airwaves, but nothing else, technically you have a filter but it hardly filters anything out. So what is the minimum filtering required al pi halacha?

  • #876628

    @daasyochid – “So I guess you’ll be finding yourself another means for parnassah. Good luck.”

    Working for you, right?

    I’d probably find something else instead, like a knitted kippah on my head. And saying Hallel and partying on Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim. I suppose that’s where I’ll end up if this “filter is required” idea is going to be enforced.

  • #876629

    Naysberg
    Member

    Some people ended up being Conservative when the no driving to shul on Shabbos was enforced.

  • #876630

    kollel_wife
    Member

    To all the IT people here who seem to say filters are impractical or won’t work for them – Can I ask you the following –

    Can’t you have a filter that would hide images, so that when you go to yahoo etc, you don’t have to see improper images and certainly those that may be worse than on yahoo.

    It doesn’t mean that you’re not smart enough to get around the filter. But isn’t it better, as you long as you keep the filter on, you don’t inadvertently see things you wish you hadn’t?!

  • #876631

    @kollel_wife – I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.

    @naysberg – you completely miss the point. But thanks for the suggestion, maybe I should consider it indeed. (For the record – I am not serious. At least I hope so!)

  • #876632

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Because that wasn’t the moral of the story.”

    Actually, the case he references, it WAS and IS the moral of the story. For obvious reasons, he could not disclose all that happened, how it happened, and what led up to it. Suffice to say social media sites such as Facebook can be way more problematic than sitting and watching adult rated movies.

  • #876634

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Kollel Wife what else did you learn in sem?

  • #876635

    cinderella
    Member

    I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.

    I use Yahoo as my email service provider. It’s faster than gmail or the other common sites. I have a gmail account as well and I prefer the layout, speed and convenience of Yahoo. If you are using Internet with a filter, you can go directly to your mailbox, bypassing the main news page.

    Yahoo is a great website. It is a portal which gives you direct access to weather, stocks, news, Facebook, and many other things. I would understand why people would prefer not to use it, but personally, I find it to be a very convenient website.

  • #876636

    cb1
    Member

    I don’t ever go to sites like Yahoo. Why anyone would open such a site is beyond me.

    I have a Yahoo e-mail address. That’s why i go on that site.

  • #876637

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    @naysberg – you completely miss the point.

    Well then, what was your point, if not that if you don’t like what your rabbinic leadership tells you, you’ll just find different leadership?

  • #876638

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I have a Yahoo e-mail address. That’s why i go on that site..

    It’s unnecessary to go on the Yahoo sire to access a Yahoo email address (aside from the fact that it’s unnecessary to have a Yahoo address to begin with).

    I happen to have a Yahoo address in order to receive emails through a frum Yahoo group, But I have no need to visit the actual site.

  • #876639

    writersoul
    Member

    apushatayid: ‘”Because that wasn’t the moral of the story.” Actually, the case he references, it WAS and IS the moral of the story. For obvious reasons, he could not disclose all that happened, how it happened, and what led up to it. Suffice to say social media sites such as Facebook can be way more problematic than sitting and watching adult rated movies.’

    Did you read what I wrote? My entire post was about the problems with people chatting each other about social media when they don’t know each other. NOTHING about movies. My point was that the moral wasn’t get off the internet, because that’s like saying that if people get hit by cars, we shouldn’t drive. Instead, we should look before we cross, and likewise, know who we are chatting with on the internet.

  • #876640

    Yes, I do not have a filter. Would you like to know why?

    Because when there’s a will there’s a way.

    Back in the days before instant accessibility of everything, those who were determined to feast their eyes on certain images FOUND A WAY. Those who truly wished to violate the Torah FOUND A WAY.

    Whenever I feel like misbehavior is the direction I’m headed, I DON’T GO ONLINE. If I must be online, I make sure to do so in full view of my wife or others, if I’m out of the house. Do you know why? Because I’m normal. I’m not some half-deranged maniac with little or no impulse control; I’m human. And, as a human, I make my own conscious decisions about morality and I bide by them. Not ALWAYS–as I AM human, after all–but most of the time.

    You know, the same as everyone else both pre- and post-internet.

    It’s always easy to find a new technology to demonize, but the demons are within us and therefore within our control.

  • #876641

    Ferd
    Participant

    David Bar-Magen, I guess your stronger than a Kohen Gadol…..NOT.

    Ain apitropis l’arayos!!!!!!

    You win the prize of being the biggest ferd to ever comment on YWN in history.

    Shoita.

  • #876642

    cheftze
    Member

    David, I take it a “filthy” magazine has a place on your coffee table. It goes without saying that you, of course, skip the inappropriate pages.

  • #876643

    MiddlePath
    Member

    How sad that people opposed to David’s post, which contained very sensible and non-threatening ideas, even if they aren’t to everyone’s liking, feel the need to reply so venomously.

  • #876646

    Spoken in true testament to your username!

    I actually replied to both of those guys in detail, but the moderators have yet to post it, for reasons I don’t quite understand.

  • #876647

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    How sad that people opposed to David’s post, which contained very sensible and non-threatening ideas, even if they aren’t to everyone’s liking, feel the need to reply so venomously.

    His idea is not sensible, and quite dangerous. If you carefully read David’s post, he is admitting to occasionally submitting to his yetzer horah on the web, yet still defends keeping his access unfiltered!

    Relying on self control alone is a wonderful ideal, but, as Chaza”l tell us and life experience bears out, it doesn’t work.

    The thousands of broken neshomas and marriages that we are suffering due to internet addictions all rationalized that they can and will control themselves.

  • #876649

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    David Bar-Magen

    It’s unfortunate that you seem to feel that you know the “Kochas HaNefesh” better then Chazal.

    The Gemara in Bava Basra states quite clearly that if one choose to walk in a place of immodesty even thought there is an alternative path then one is considered a “Rosha” even if that person closes their eyes and does not look at the immodest sights.

    This Gemora was quoted by Rav Don SEgal shlita at the Asifa.

  • #876650

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I would also add that it is unfortunate that you have so little self control over yourself that you have an inability to install a filter on your computer.

    B”H though Bnei Yisroel is capable of big things and even when it takes gut wrenching honesty and an realization of how many things that we hae made “normal” (Seeing sights which are in the category of Yeharig V’al Ya’avor”) only once in a while. We are capable of saying enough is enough and taking away the Y”h attempts to ensnare us.

    I speak of course to the majority.

    The minority amongst us are unfortunatley already so desensitized that they view the “once in a while” viewing of pritzus merely a fact of life nu nu.

    B”h for most of us it is not nu nu.

    We B’H have enough self control to disallow it.

  • #876651

    cheftze
    Member

    In Orange County, California, the sewage water is filtered back into drinking water that is sent to the tap. Imagine removing the filters. That is unfiltered internet. Sending the water flushed down the toilet directly to your kitchen sink to drink unfiltered.

  • #876652

    clay kodesh
    Member

    David, the Torah’s view (and by that I mean the Gemara and rishonim etc.)is that a person should never put himself in a situation where he may fall to the yetzer hora (“the demons within us” as you put it so well. Made me smile:). An example of this is the famous story of Dovid Hamelech and bas sheva. The medrash says that Dovid actually ASKED to be tested by Hashem, so that he could rise to a higher level ( and be mentioned with the avos in shemona esray). As we all know, sadly Dovid fell to the yetzer hora, and many bad things happened as a result. Our sages conclude that the moral here is never to put yourself in a situation where you can fall, rather play it safe, and don’t try anything fancy.

    While your opinion is a reasonable one, (Dovid Hamelech had the same idea after all!) it is not the Torah’s opinion, and therefore not the way a Torah Jew is supposed to act.

  • #876653

    clay kodesh
    Member

    Source for my previous post: Sanhedrin 107a

  • #876654

    I agree with David. It’s the same thing I say often. I’m from The Netherlands. Though I’m not from Amsterdam, I know Amsterdam quite well. And if I walk through Amsterdam, I know exactly which streets to avoid, in order to avoid nasty sights. There is no halacha that forbids one from walking down a street (though I’m sure some people will think of something), yet I don’t go there. Why? Simply because I stay away from such sights. Simply by being an adult human being with a normal mind and some self-control.

    Also as mentioned before a filter cannot work for me for technical reasons, but there is a principal issue as well.

  • #876655

    If anyone can come on here and say they have any form of unfiltered internet and have never been on an inappropriate site, I would like to meet you, because you dont exist. I love these guys who say I can trust myself, its normally the addicted to shmutz type.

  • #876656

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    There is no halacha that forbids one from walking down a street (though I’m sure some people will think of something)

    You’re right; I thought of something.

    ??? ???? ??? ???: ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???

    ?????: ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????, ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???, ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???, ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??????

  • #876657

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader

    On the one hand people are provideing the actual sources in Chazal which state clearly that Davids view is contrary to Chazals.

    However you post that you agree with David.

    In other words you disagree with Chazal.

  • #876658

    clay kodesh
    Member

    To chassidishe gateshead, you are right that for a yid to survive he needs to learn self-control.(especially in america today). Without it, it would not be difficult for him to find whatever inappropriate material he wants, they practically give it away on the street corners and supermarket check-out aisles!

    And still,we see there is no chiyuv to “move to a holier place”; plenty of mainstream rabbonim live here. Im sure there is no halachic need for you to leave the netherlands.

    But there is a huge difference between all these examples and the internet: the internet is under your direct control, while the street is completely out of your control.

    The street is a test given to you by hashem, whether you want to be tested or not, so you gotta learn self control or you’re finished.

    But the internet is a nisayon that can be avoided, just by installing a filter( for most ppl, i dont know the specific situation of IT people). A test that is in your control to avoid, the halachah is clear that u must avoid. (Sanhedrin, 107a.)

  • #876659

    MiddlePath
    Member

    DY, regardless whether it is “dangerous” or not, it is improper for people to reply to him in the manner that they did.

    Now, for all of you who are saying that self control either doesn’t work, or isn’t the right way of doing things:

    I think that anyone who says self control doesn’t work was either brainwashed (or frightened) into thinking that, or, doesn’t have the self control himself, and therefore thinks that no one does. But the truth is, it is definitely possible to have self control in this. The way to go about doing that is by understanding WHY seeing certain things or reading certain things isn’t good for us. There are books on this. I’ve read many of them. Simply saying “Well, it’s a huge aveira and you’ll go to Hell” won’t work for the vast majority of people. There are very good reasons WHY these things are not good for us. If we can understand the reasons, we can easily have the self control to not see or read these things.

    I think this can all be compared to the following: Suppose you live in a forest, and there happen to be lots of thieves around. You can do a few things now: Either move out of the forest, build a fence around your house, or learn how to defend yourself against thieves.

    Now, moving out it clearly not the best way of dealing with this. It means the thieves won. And you’ll keep having to move around, because there are thieves everywhere. Not ideal, then.

    Building a fence is better, since it lets you continue to live there. But then again, you are completely relying on the fence. If the thieves break through, or the fence falls, or you happen to be in an area without your fence, that’s it. You’re finished.

    Or, you do the third thing, and learn how to defend yourself against thieves. Then, no matter where you are, no matter what, you’ll be able to make sure that the thieves can never harm you or steal.

    Out of the three, it’s clear that the third option is best. But of course, there may be times when you are weak, or tired, and defending yourself against thieves may be difficult for you. So then, building a fence can help.

    The first option, moving out, is banning the internet entirely. Clearly, that isn’t practical.

    The second option, only building a fence, is having a filter. That is good, but you are relying on something else to protect you, and when it isn’t there, you’re done.

    The third option, learning how to defend ourselves, is educating ourselves as to WHY certain things are detrimental to us, and being in control ourselves, without depending on other things to protect us.

    If there are times when our self control IS weak, for whatever reason, then it’s good to have that extra protection of a fence, or filter. But a fence without the self defense is NOT ideal.

    I think the main reason why people don’t think of it this way is because they think it’s impossible to have that self control. Well, guess what: With PROPER education, and understanding why certain things are not good, it is not difficult to have that self control. And as I said earlier, I think people who don’t believe this were either brainwashed into it, or just don’t have that self control themselves, and therefore assume no one does.

  • #876660

    haifagirl
    Member

    If anyone can come on here and say they have any form of unfiltered internet and have never been on an inappropriate site, I would like to meet you, because you dont exist. I love these guys who say I can trust myself, its normally the addicted to shmutz type.

    I have unfiltered internet. I’m sure many of the sites I visit would be considered inappropriate by some.

    There is one site I visit regularly, and in fact, am a moderator on that site. It has several sections, including an “adults only” section. I have never visited that section. I don’t see any reason to.

    Since I spend quite a bit of time on that site, I would hate to block it because of a section I don’t even see.

    As for Facebook, I would not be in touch with most of my relatives if Facebook didn’t exist. I have some cousins I hadn’t heard from in 20 years, but now we keep up with each other regularly thanks to Facebook. If someone posts something I don’t like, I block that person. It’s not that difficult.

  • #876661

    Sam2
    Member

    Clay Kodesh: Your posts are sensible and probably P’shat, but you can’t call them Halachah. We don’t learn out Halachos from Aggada. (Bava Basra 56b (I think), on the other hand, is seemingly a good source.)

  • #876662

    clay kodesh
    Member

    @ haifagirl. A good idea for you would be web-monitoring, like webchaver.

    You would be able to go to any sites you want, but you would be protected from navigating to inappropriate areas by knowing that others( rabbi, spouse, fried who you respect) are watching every move.

    @sam2 oops, i stand corrected.:)

  • #876663

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    MP,

    Nice theory, but contrary to Chaza”l.

    There are also serious inconsistencies in your analogy.

    Moving out, while indicating that the thieves won, does not in any way mean that the yetzer horah won. Avoiding nisayon is a tool which the Ribono Shel Olam gave us and demands that we use whenever possible.

    Building a fence, we agree, is not ideal, but can be helpful.

    Learning to defend yourself is great, but you somehow forgot to mention that the thieves may win, and you’ll be dead.

    You also misunderstand the position that self control is insufficient. That point of view (which is Chazal”s) in no way diminishes the need for self control; it merely mandates complimenting it with whatever other means are possible.

  • #876664

    lakewhut
    Participant

    guys you don’t need to get harmful filters like k-9 or web chaver or j-net. If you have an apple there is a parental control setting. If not google chrome extensions.

  • #876665

    MiddlePath
    Member

    DY, first, let me just say I very much appreciate that our discussion is polite and civil. Thank you.

    Regarding the “serious inconsistencies”:

    “Moving out, while indicating that the thieves won, does not in any way mean that the yetzer horah won.”

    I should not have used the word “won”. I should have said “in control”. And yes, avoiding a nisayon is a good thing when possible, as long as it isn’t a constant problem. But there comes a point where it is far better to turn around and deal with the nisayon properly than to keep running from it.

    “Building a fence, we agree, is not ideal, but can be helpful.”

    Yes. Which means that having a filter, without proper the education to defend yourself with when you find yourself in a situation without a filter, is not ideal.

    “Learning to defend yourself is great, but you somehow forgot to mention that the thieves may win, and you’ll be dead.”

    Of course, which is why the second protection of having a fence can help with that problem. So having both is best. But regarding having one or the other, it’s better to know self defense than to just have a fence. Also, I think many people are under the impression that it’s like a 50/50 chance if you or the thieves will win. But that isn’t the reality in regard to being properly educated about what is wrong with certain things on the internet. Someone who IS properly educated in regard to those things, and is responsible, will win almost all of the time. I say almost, because saying “always” is false. Which is why a fence (filter) will make your chances even better.

    I agree that merely self control will not protect you 100 percent of the time, since periodic falls can, and will, happen. I am just against the massive focus on having filters, without focusing on how important self control is, and how becoming educated in WHY things are wrong is far better than having a filter without that knowledge.

  • #876666

    lakewhut
    Participant

    middlepath, you are correct. If you simply restrict a kid, and he wants to look at something he isn’t supposed to, he will.

  • #876667

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I am just against the massive focus on having filters, without focusing on how important self control is, and how becoming educated in WHY things are wrong is far better than having a filter without that knowledge.

    I don’t know why you think the two are mutually exclusive. The massive focus on filters has in no way detracted from the message about our being an Am Kadosh and needing to remain pure.

    Nobody (that I know of) has ever said that filters are enough, and one doesn’t need yiras shomayim and proper chinuch.

    Why would you object to the “massive focus on filters” when you agree that it’s an important tool, and nobody has suggested it replacing self control/yiras shomayim, only complimenting?

  • #876668

    clay kodesh
    Member

    I think we all agree that any self-respecting torah jew should have both self-control and a filter of some kind to help cover all the bases.

    And that either one alone is simply not enough.

    Again, i dont know if filters are an effective solution for IT people.

  • #876670

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Lakewhut,

    We’re not just talking about kids.

    Besides, what you wrote is a gross generalization. If a child is brought up with proper chinuch (which is much broader than this discussion),he/she will often follow his/her parents’ guidance (which includes restrictions) with simcha.

  • #876671

    MiddlePath
    Member

    lakewhut, agreed.

    DY, being an am kadosh and needing to remain pure are wonderful things, but they won’t necessarily prevent someone from viewing something undesirable. And I agree, as I’ve said, that having filters is a good idea.

    I don’t object to the focus on filters itself, I object to focusing on filters WITHOUT focusing on, with at least as much energy, proper education. So, if there really is a plan of action in the frum world to provide proper education about what is wrong and WHY it is wrong, and how to use the internet responsibly, BESIDES having a filter, then I have no issues with that. I fully support that. I’m just waiting to see that happen.

  • #876672

    lakewhut
    Participant

    don’t need a filter just turn on parental control, duh

  • #876673

    clay kodesh
    Member

    @lakewhut

    isnt a parental control the same as a filter?

  • #876674

    Naysberg
    Member

    MP: We ARE providing a (proper) education in Klal Yisroel. Our wonderful mechanchm working hard together with parents are providing a wonderful education, based on the Torah hashkofos espoused by the gedolim shlit”a, to our tinokos sheel beis raban.

    AND IT IS WORKING!!

    Yet, we still need additional tools to complement that. One of those tools are filters.

  • #876675

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    DY, being an am kadosh and needing to remain pure are wonderful things, but they won’t necessarily prevent someone from viewing something undesirable.

    That’s exactly why it’s much better not to have web access, and if access is necessary, a filter is absolutely essential.

    I object to focusing on filters WITHOUT focusing on, with at least as much energy, proper education.

    So do I.

    So, if there really is a plan of action in the frum world to provide proper education about what is wrong and WHY it is wrong

    That’s an obvious conclusion which comes from a Torah chinuch.

    and how to use the internet responsibly

    Here’s where our disagreement begins. Why focus on something which is best avoided? You wouldn’t want your kids being taught how to safely become intoxicated, would you? (I know – it’s not a perfect analogy because you’ll argue that for some, web access is a necessity, but I agree to proper education in how to use the internet for someone who needs it, starting with how to properly filter).

  • #876676

    @clay kodesh – “Again, i dont know if filters are an effective solution for IT people.”

    Well, if you ask some of the posters here, IT people (like me) are now halachically obligated to either quit their job or become Conservatives.

  • #876677

    MiddlePath
    Member

    Naysberg, yes, there are many great things being taught to our children. But there are also plenty of things that we unfortunately are scared or uncomfortable teaching our children. And they are things that DO need to be taught. People may argue “No, it’s better to keep them innocent and unknowing”, and to that I respond, maybe in your communities that works (though I’d be surprised as to how effective it really is), but in my community, and I’d say most communities, the children need to know, and know from the PROPER sources, such as parents and teachers. Because if they don’t, they’ll learn about these things from the WRONG sources, and that’s where all the trouble starts.

    DY, I agree with a lot that you are saying, and I think you agree with a lot that I’m saying. The things we DO disagree on are things that many different types of Jews disagree on, and people in general, and that is fine. There is no one method that works for all people. One thing that you said is bothering me though, which is this:

    “That’s exactly why it’s much better not to have web access, and if access is necessary, a filter is absolutely essential.”

    Why did you choose to say “A filter is absolutely essential”, and not “Proper education of how to use it responsibly is absolutely essential”? Or at least both? Do you think a filter is MORE important than proper education?

    Also, I noticed you wrote in the new “Facebook woes” thread, that because of the asifa, you are helping some friends get filters. That is wonderful. But are there people who are now trying to get properly educated in how to use the internet responsibly? I would hope so. I would hope there are at least as many people doing that as there are who are now getting filters.

  • #876678

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    TCG,

    My post as well as Naysberg’s were meant rhetorically, yet you keep on bringing them up rather than directly address the issue.

    His post was actually better than mine. Although I’m quite skeptical about the absolute impossibility of any type of filter or accountability/monitoring program, it’s possible that I’m wrong. It’s also possible that if it really is impossible, it’s muttar for you to have it (although it doesn’t seem that way based on the psakim I’ve seen and heard).

    You attitude, though, that your need for it overrides normative halachic procedures, and you’ll seek a new rabbi or peer group if you need to, is horrible.

  • #876679

    Well!

    All I can say is “wow.” Things have certainly been moving along since I last checked in.

    DaasYochid and Middle Path definitely win the award for most respectful and polite disagreement on this forum. I, like MiddlePath, was a bit confused by the vehemence and general closeminded “nopenopenope” attitude that my statement seemed to generate in some people. T

  • #876680

    Well!

    All I can say is “wow.” Things have certainly been moving along since I last checked in.

    DaasYochid and Middle Path definitely win the award for most respectful and polite disagreement on this forum. I, like MiddlePath, was a bit confused by the vehemence and general closeminded “nopenopenope” attitude that my statement seemed to generate in some people. To those people–whom I do not seek to make famous by mentioning their names–I will only say this: please try learning how to argue your points so that your arguments graduate from schoolyard posturing to actual content. Then we will talk.

    Next, a few points:

    1. The whole concept of “use a filter” is an artificial moral construct, despite what anyone says. It’s not the same thing as “keep kosher” or “keep Shabbas,” in that the action of installing a filter does not automatically make you kosher v’yosher in the eyes of God.

    Someone decided that filters are the be-all and end-all of internet safety. Wake up, people: no they’re not. Any fifteen year old that knows about by-proxy locators or how to torrent and seed would laugh you out of the room. Filters present as much barrier against going where you want to go on the internet as a “Do Not Cross Between Railway Cars” sign presents to subway riders.

    2. “But DBM,” I hear some of you bleating, “are you saying that we mere mortals can trust ourselves not to seek out the forbidden? Don’t Chazal say that we cannot police ourselves in matters of arayos?”

    Well, if it’s nose-to-nose with you, yeah. Few, if any, human beings can resist THAT sort of temptation. Notice, however, that Chazal did NOT say that we cannot police ourselves in, say, talking to a woman, walking on the same side of the street or even (gasp!) seating oneself next to a woman on a bus. Do you why? Because WE HAVE THE HUMAN CAPACITY TO SET LIMITS AND BIDE BY THEM.

    If you read my original post, you will notice that I mention simply not going online or going online in the presence of my wife as deterrents to visiting improper content. Those are natural–not artificial and pandering–means of self-control.

    (To the one sick soul who derived from that post that I was confessing to not being able to help visiting certain sites: shame on you. Are you not aware of the many interstitial advertisments and banners that one encounters in the media?)

    3. To tout a filter as the device that does what we ourselves are meant to be doing is to create an artificial moral construct. Why?

    Imagine for a moment if it suddenly became fashionable to drink only boiling water in order to avoid the infinitesimal concern that a living organism remains in it. Imagine the signs popping up in restaurant windows throughout the Jewish world. WE ONLY SERVE BOILING WATER. GET IT WHILE IT’S SCALDING.

    Basically, we are buying into the idea that a good Jew drinks his water at the boiling point. We HAVE to, you see, because otherwise we will fall prey to our ta’avos to drink unboiled water. We are all intrinsically animals who cannot control ourselves when faced with clear, sparkling goy-water that isn’t even properly steaming. It follows, of course, that only an awful, morally corrupt Jew who has drunk cold water so often that he’s become desensitized would dare regard plain, common-sense filtering as sufficient.

    To recap: Someone creates a pious thing to do. Everyone buys into the piety because nobody wants to be That Guy Who Shouldn’t Even Be Jewish. Anyone who questions the new piety by examining it using actual brainpower is a heretic.

  • #876681

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Why did you choose to say “A filter is absolutely essential”, and not “Proper education of how to use it responsibly is absolutely essential”?

    Because that’s already assumed – not specifically a course in filter or computer or internet use, but a proper Torah chinuch which informs us how to navigate all nisyonos in life, not just the web.

    But are there people who are now trying to get properly educated in how to use the internet responsibly? I would hope so. I would hope there are at least as many people doing that as there are who are now getting filters.

    By far the most important step to use the internet properly is to get a proper filter.

  • #876682

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    David,

    I will quote from your earlier post.

    And, as a human, I make my own conscious decisions about morality and I bide by them. Not ALWAYS–as I AM human, after all–but most of the time.

    A reference to not always biding by conscious decisions about morality is very different than what you now claim is only incidental exposure to inappropriate material. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Nevertheless, incidental exposure is certainly reason enough to require a filter.

    The fact that filters are easily evaded is all the more reason to advocate complete avoidance of internet access, not a reason to forego the filter. At the least, it demands stronger, more difficult to evade, filters.

    Chaza”l do say, actually, that one must take extreme precautions in areas of arayos. I don’t fathom how you can compare being on the same side of the street as a woman with having free and easy access to all sorts of arayos on the web. Artificial moral construct though it may be, blocking easy access to the type of tempting material available on the web is an imperative, and I don’t see how one can possibly distinguish this from the Gemara’s imperative to avoid unnecessarily passing an area in which women are doing laundry. Is that not also an “artificial moral construct”?

    No, questioning the direction given to us by our gedolim is not heresy. It’s just lacking common sense. (If you’re arguing on Chaza”l, that’s another story, but I’m hopeful that you don’t realize that that’s what your doing).

  • #876683

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    MiddlePath,

    Just to demonstrate that nobody is suggesting filters as a total solution, I will paste a sentence from a piece released by the Ichud about a follow up gathering of rabbonim, addressed by R’ Mattisyahu Shlit”a:

  • #876684

    Avi K
    Participant

    I have had very bad experiences with filters. One blocks sites with names like “Middlesex County”. Another one apparently blocks all book purchasing sites as I was unable to get into a Judaica site.

    However, I agree that if someone has a problem in this area he should get a filter. However, for one who does not it is a pain in the neck (see Nedarim 9b).

  • #876685

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Avi K,

    That’s a strange argument. Almost nothing in life has no down side. Should I stop learning Gemara because I once twisted my ankle while trying to reach a sefer on a high shelf? Everything has it’s balance, and your issues were extremely trivial. And your analogy to installing a filter, which is a basic safeguard against the yetzer horah, to becoming a nazir, is beyond comprehension.

  • #876686

    avhaben
    Participant

    You still have some people today actually defend having a TV at home or watching movies. So, unfortunately, it isn’t entirely surprising to still see someone defend unfiltered internet. (Despite that unfiltered internet is much much worse than TV or movies.)

  • #876687

    AZ
    Participant

    I posted on a seperate thread a link to a extensive booklet that provides detailed guidance solutions and empowerment for dealing with this issue.

    most of the debate here will be null and void after reading the booklet as it has information for everyone.

    I don’t think to many people will read the content and say they knew all that already, nor will they say it didnd’t help them.

  • #876688

    clay kodesh
    Member

    @DBM your statement

    2. “But DBM,” I hear some of you bleating, “are you saying that we mere mortals can trust ourselves not to seek out the forbidden? Don’t Chazal say that we cannot police ourselves in matters of arayos?”

    Well, if it’s nose-to-nose with you, yeah. Few, if any, human beings can resist THAT sort of temptation. Notice, however, that Chazal did NOT say that we cannot police ourselves in, say, talking to a woman, walking on the same side of the street or even (gasp!) seating oneself next to a woman on a bus. Do you why? Because WE HAVE THE HUMAN CAPACITY TO SET LIMITS AND BIDE BY THEM.

    If you read my original post, you will notice that I mention simply not going online or going online in the presence of my wife as deterrents to visiting improper content. Those are natural–not artificial and pandering–means of self-control.”

    End quote

    You dont seriously mean to compare having unlimited access to unfiltered internet to walking by women on the street! A better comparison, perhaps, would be to yichud. (Because in both cases you have access without any outside interference or fear of discovery)

    yes, we all agree that the internet is a new thing that has no precedent in halacha as “assur”, so there is no easy mishna brura or shulchan aruch to quote.

    But i think, with a little intellectual honesty( and some bleating:) we can clearly see how being exposed to the web is within the categories that our chachomim forbade in “stayin away from arayos”, similar to how they forbade looking at pictures or clothing. And how they forbade being alone with a woman, i.e. yichud.

    However its not written specifically, so theres nothing to quote.

    I didn’t want to start talking like this, but come on. If you’re a man, can u really take seriously someone who says “im pure, im in control, i set boundaries” etc. We’ve been around the block before, we’re all internet users( if not, how are u reading this) we know what goes on when men have unfettered access to inappropriate material! Were not stupid!!

    theres a stat by the American Psycological Assosiation that 86% of men would open an inappropriate website,if given the chance. Thats almost 9 out of 10 men. Tell me, are you that 1 or 2 in 10 who wont? Is everyone in this thread the 1 or 2 who wont? Where are the other 9? Who are they? Can we please take our heads out of the sand? We’re not malachim, we’re human!! Deal with it!

    Im sure that many times you are in control. But even if you are the 1, as a public standard set by our leaders,theyd have to be literally INSANE to allow everyone in klal yisroel to have unlimited internet, just to protect the rights of the 1 or 2 in ten who will stay pure.

    This should all be obvious.

  • #876689

    avhaben
    Participant

    Everyone recognizes that the ban on television in the Torah community has been, and is, succesful. Sure, you have the odd-man out that still has a TV in his home r’l. But he is the odd-man out. He sticks out. He is a small minority (in the Chareidi community.) Yeshivos filter these families out. And have been doing so for many decades already. Everyone knows TV is very bad.

    You also know it wasn’t always like this. In the 50’s, 60’s and even part of the 70’s it wasn’t uncommon at all to have a TV in a Chareidi home. It didn’t change over night. People thought TV ain’t so bad. The rabbis are overreacting. Yet b’H they persisted. Rabbonim fought television tooth-and-nail. They had rabbinical conferences. There was the famous Kol Koreh signed by rabbonim across the spectrum banning (yes, banning) televisions. Yeshivas cracked down on families with TV’s. Today, b’H, we can say it was a very successful initiative.

    That is where unfiltered internet in frum homes is headed. IY”H it will be almost eradicated. Its defenders will have the same standing in the community as anyone who dared try to give a speech in a Chareidi shul defending having a TV in a Jewish home.

    It is unthinkable.

  • #876690

    AZ
    Participant

    avhaben:

    Totally Agree

    http://www.madisontitle.com/tempdoc/KinusBrochure.zip

    The brochure includes:

    Challenges of our times, chochmo bagoyim tamin, solutions etc.

    I think the content of this extensive booklet will be VERY agreeable to (almost) all.

    This is far different then what was actually said at the asifa and it will become the standard iy”h, as you have said.

  • #876692

    MP: We ARE providing a (proper) education in Klal Yisroel. Our wonderful mechanchm working hard together with parents are providing a wonderful education, based on the Torah hashkofos espoused by the gedolim shlit”a, to our tinokos sheel beis raban.

    AND IT IS WORKING!!

    Yet, we still need additional tools to complement that. One of those tools are filters.

    BS”D

    WADR, I don’t think that is the case, especially in these inyonim.

    The Gedolim educated their children about growing up (Hamavin Yovin). I remember a story of a Gadol (Don’t remember who) teaching their child at 13 about the various changes that are going on in his body, how his Yetzer Hara newly affects him more, and the best ways to deal with it. Most importantly, about the fight and how to win the war even if a battle is lost, and don’t expect to always win every battle.

    The parents of our children are avoiding these hard issues, either due to their own squeamishness, them thinking that discussing it is Assur, their own ignorance, or some other reason. The bochrim are therefore not prepared for life (the “how to fight” aspect). This can be done in a Toirahdik Oifen, if we had hadracha on how it should be done.

    Personally, I believe a filter is useless, unless it is a whitelist, ISP based, like YeshivaNet, plus a Wi-Fi/3G blocker. A monitoring service is better, but will not help if a child wants to see. Your child can go to the corner store & buy a prepaid cell phone and download anything they want, and you will never know, no matter what solution you buy.

  • #876693

    Health
    Participant

    avhaben -“That is where unfiltered internet in frum homes is headed. IY”H it will be almost eradicated.”

    That’s your mistake and a lot others here. They didn’t Matter Filtered Net in the home. Filtered Net is only Mutter for business. I guess if your office is in your home that would be Ok. Stop deluding yourself that coming to YWN or other Kosher places -that they hold is Mutter. It’s not, acc. to them. So are you enjoying your TV? I know I am.

  • #876694

    DaasYochid: The difference between avoiding those paths where women are inappropriately clad (as described by Chazal) and installing an internet filter is the reasoning behind the move.

    Making a conscious decision to avoid areas where women dress inappropriately is far MORE comparable to making a conscious decision to avoid websites of the same nature. Installing a filter is more comparable to Chazal instructing us to post guards on the roadways leading to these women; guards who bludgeon anyone who attempts to cross.

    Because guards are likewise an artificial moral construct in that they exist because outside forces have decided they must, the free will of CHOOSING to avoid those paths is removed. It is highly possible that, in time, these guards themselves will be seen as the mitzvah and the purpose of the avoidance they enforce will be lost.

    My intention in noting that Chazal do not demand that we avoid sitting next to women while traveling or interacting with them altogether is to point out that Chazal themselves–the ultimate authorities on human nature–believed that we are capable of self-control.

    As I implied in my earlier post, I do NOT simply lock myself in a room with the computer and wage some kind of pitched battle against primal human urges. I MODERATE my own self by either avoiding the internet altogether or using it in the presence of my wife.

    A filter is insulting. It implies that God created mankind lacking the ability to overcome their baser instincts without the help of a nanny. It implies that He hands us challenges that are so impossible to bear that we must simply remove ourselves from the battle altogether.

  • #876695

    Avi K
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    1. The correct analogy iss buying sifri kodesh from a publisher whose sefarim have been found to have blank pages (which happens all to often).

    2. The analogy to a nazir is that a person does not have to add fences unless he has a specific problem or alternatively has reached the level of chassidut as defined by Messialt Yesharim.See also Taanit 11a,Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:12 and Nedarim 9:1.

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