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using hot water from tank on shabbos

(64 posts)
  • Started 7 months ago by rabbiofberlin
  • Latest reply from HaLeiVi

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  1. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    Having had some discussions with my sons about this topic,there are surprising conclusions on this. Generally accepted is that you cannot use water from a hot water tank on shabbos. Yet, there may be reasons to be "mattir" this. What is the minhag of the "coffee room" participants?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  2. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    "Yet, there may be reasons to be "mattir" this. "
    Reasons? What reasons that be, and which posek said such reasons exist?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  3. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Most hot water systems are constructed in a way which would make it an issue of bishul. Removing water from the tank (i.e. turning on the hot water tap) causes cold water to enter the the tank to replace the water which left (the system is designed this way so that you don't have to manually refill it each time). The tank is a kli rishon, so the new, cold water is cooked upon entry to the tank, even if the fire was off, as long as the temperature of the water will be 110°F (R' Moshe's shiur of yad soledes bo l'chumrah). Although it may be a davar she'eino miskaven, it's a p'sik reisha so would be assur.

    It would be muttar al y'dei aku"m, though.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  4. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    WIY (and DaasYochid): my very erudite sone pointed me to a teshuvoh by R'Dovid Kronglass zz'l (after the war, mashgiach at Ner Yisroel) in his sefer "Divrei Dovid' (last teshuvo,number 87) where he discusses this in unusual terms, asserting that, in hilchos shabbos, "gromo' is muttor. I paraphrase a teshuvo of SEVEN long pages- you can find it in hebrewbooks.org. I will try to quote some of his highlights later.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  5. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    Can you please post a link?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  6. DaasYochid
    a singular mind

    I'll bli neder look a little later (I found it: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40815&st=&pgnum=316&hilite=), but R'Moshe doesn't see a tzad heter.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=43&hilite=

    Posted 7 months ago #
  7. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    So here's a question... Is there such a thing as a tank that ONLY allows the cold water to come in if the hot water level dips to a specific low? So if someone were to use less than that maximum amount, it would NOT cause cold water to enter the tank and be cooked on Shabbos?

    Posted 7 months ago #
  8. besalel
    Member

    oomis: in such a case it would be okay if the water boiler never went to 110 at all during shabbos not just when the water is going in. i heard of someone who rigged his system exactly as you describe.

    DY, Berlin, etc: grommo is ussur mdirabunun. many great talmidei chachumim matired electricity use on shabbos and yuntiff. the olam didnt agree (and the tzad hetr was based on faulty science in any event).

    Posted 7 months ago #
  9. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    DaasYochid; I am embarassed to say but I do not know how "to post a link". Also, the actual teshuvo starts earlier than your posted link. (starts on page 301- shin-alef)
    I am aware that the vast majority of Poskim do not allow it ,as I said in my initial posting, but R'Dovid zz'l has a novel way of looking at it-'midin gromo'-that brings with it many other facets and may have applications in different situations.
    oomis- I do not know to answer your question but I would not be surprised if such mechanism exists, in today's technologically rich world. And, most interestingly, if such mechanism exists, the issues raised by the teshuvo I mentioned become even more relevant.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  10. ROB: One has to ascertain that the Rov issuing the Psak to be lenient was/is FULLY knowledgeable with the ENTIRE mechanism of the device / apparatus / appliance. I don't C"V want to belittle any Rov's kavod, but it was known to occur in the past. Unknowledgeable technicians "experts" presented and explained different machines to Rabbonim, Gedolim in the wrong way. Totally. (I used to be very scientifically inclined, when I read certain seforim "A certain expert explained it to me...", I had a hearty laugh)

    There is a world of a difference between a frig, air conditioner and the likes where one may be gorem an earlier on or off (according to most / some). Even the water system pumps that will definitely be working due to one's use, is also permitted. Too much lumdus - not for me.

    But saying a hot water heater is a gorem is pulling it a bit too far. - The only way hot water is shooting out at the faucet, is because cold water is entering and pushing it out. Not a gorem at all (issur occurs at and by the motion of the faucet). Not even a she'aino miskaven - you do want it! If you turn off the cold water, your not going to get anything.

    The only mechanism that should exist today, should be an air-pressured force going into the cold line feed, with the cold turned completely off before Shabbos.
    I don't know why nobody thought of it. (if people come out with such a device, KNOW - they got it from Little Froggie, on the Yeshiva World!!)

    Posted 7 months ago #
  11. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    Little froggie (and besalel): with the greatest respect to your postings, you have not read the teshuvo (which runs over ten pages) and which ,by the way, shows the gadlus in torah of R"Dovid Kornglass zz'l. Go, read it, try to understand it and you will see that he deals with every one of your points, including the fact of "gromo" which, btw, is muttor on shabbos. Please go read the teshuvo! (BTW- it is not "miskaven"- you do not want the incoming water to be heated)
    I am not saying that you should pasken like this but it is rather presumptuous to reject a view before reading the teshuvo!

    Posted 7 months ago #
  12. truthsharer1
    Blocked

    I have heard of people leaving a faucet running with a tiny trickle of hot water to allow normal usage on Shabbos, but I don't like that loophole, you are still causing more cold water to heat up as soon as you turn on your faucets.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  13. The Goq™
    Founder, President, Vice President and CEO of the CR Welcome Wagon!

    Whoever is modding this thread has a tankless job.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  14. Of course someone omitted to mention that in the first paragraph R D. Kronglass specifically says that he is not writing this להלכה rather just לעורר ולפלפל.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  15. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    nisht: I did say that most Poskim do not pasken like that. And, although R'Dovid zz'l does say that this is for Poskim to conclude, if you read the whole teshuvo, it is evident that he absolutely believes in his conclusions. He does not spend ten pages of mareh mekomos from "ganz shas" and Poskim just for the fun of it.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  16. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Gramma is actualy not Muttar on Shabbos. Perhaps you mean a Gramma She'ein Mis'chaven.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  17. I don't think he feels the לעורר ולפלפל is just for fun of it. That is just a silly comment.

    And from what I read on my phone, he says that it would be ossur. Perhaps it would be mutar to use the water if the spout was turned on. Bit not that it was mutar to open the spout לחתכילה.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  18. ROB, I spoke to a competent Halachahist (Rabbi), he told me you're absolutely correct. While that's not the general p'sak, he understood and took into account its design and mechanism, how it works, and deemed it to be a geramah.

    (I knew I shouldn't hop in where I don't belong)

    Posted 7 months ago #
  19. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    HaLeivi: if you can, get hold of the teshuvo. R"dovid zz'l
    deals withb all the details and minutiae of this matter and covers a multitude of rishonim and acharonim.
    Little Froggie : Thank you . At times, I fight an uphill battle in the coffee room, so it is comforting to know that I am not totally stupid.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  20. kollel_wife
    Member

    I will not attempt a halachic opinion. But I will mention that we sometimes turn off the "breaker" on our electic panel - the one that is for the hot water heater only.

    The water is then warmish, depending on the season winter or summer and can be used for washing hands or dishes more pleasantly than the icy water from the cold water faucet in the winter.

    Some might say the warm is very hot Friday night and might be a cooking question as well, when water enters the tank. If many take showers close to Shabbos, this will make the water only lukewarm when Shabbos starts.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  21. cherrybim
    Member

    The cold water getting cooked indirectly is also "Lo neecha lo"

    In addition to turning off the themostat, shut off the cold water intake of the water boiler tank to resolve the bishul issue.

    Rav Ruderman zt'l, the Rosh yeshiva of Ner Yisroel did not generally paskin but would refer shailos to Reb Dovid Kronglass zt'l.

    truthsharer1 - "I have heard of people leaving a faucet running with a tiny trickle of hot water to allow normal usage on Shabbos, but I don't like that loophole, you are still causing more cold water to heat up as soon as you turn on your faucets."

    Rav Nachman Bulman zt'l had the hot water going over Shabbos as per your post.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  22. nem621
    Member

    although you did make clear you were not writing saying it is lehalacha and you said ypu know most poskim don't hold like this i would like to mention R' Ribbiat (i think it is him i dont want to misquote him) that even if the pilot is off it is still assur since the water in the tank is still yad soledes and you are making cold water come in

    even if it is grama it is a a psil reisha which at least by ashkenazim is assur unless done through a derabanon so maybe you could do it with a shinui...

    Posted 7 months ago #
  23. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    nisht: Actually, I am comforted that the initial posting has engendered some promising discussion -even ,as you say ,it is "le'orer ulepalpel". I don't know whether R"Dovid zz'l actually followed his own hetterim (I am sure he was very respectful of the major Poskim like R'Moshe zz'l)but I was floored at the "lomdus" and the vast amount of rishonim and acharonim that he quotes in the teshuvo. R"Dovid Kornglass zz'l was known as the mashgiach- he was much more than that! A true godol! I regret not having known him.
    nem621 and kollel-wife- if the pilot light is off, the water will quickly cool down to a point of not being "jad soledes bo". In normal circumstances, when the water temperature drops to a certain point, it brings the heat back on.
    Also, if you can, look at the teshuva. R'Dovid zz'l deals with all the matters that you mentioned,such as "psik reishe'."gromo", 'ein miskaven' and more.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  24. kollel_wife
    Member

    rabbiorberlin - if not a lot of showers were taken, we used to be machmir not to use the hot water Friday night especially in the summer as it seemed quite hot.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  25. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    kollel-wife: thanks for your observation. I don't know whether the cold water entering the system will ever get to "jad soledes bo" if the actual heating was turned off and we enter here in the machlokes whether "ilo-oh govar' or "taso-oh govar" .The fact that the water you are using is very hot means little. it is what happens to the water that enters the system from the cold water source that is important. On that, I do not know what the actual "metzios' (reality) is.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  26. besalel
    Member

    when i read this part of a tshuve i thought of this thread and this forum in general.
    ,ולא הציעו שאלה בזה לפני גדולי ההוראה של זמננו ,כנראה על פי הסברא של כי כל העדה כולם קדושים, כעין טענת קרח ועדתו ,אף שאולי אין זה כונתם ,דהיינו (-כפרש"י שמה ע"פ המדרש) שכולם השתתפו במעמד הר סיני .וממילא -כל אחד רשאי לפסוק הלכה כפי הבנתו שלו וכפי הרגשותיו ,ומדוע תתנשאו וגו' ,כלומר ,מה צריכים לרב או לרבי לפסוק הלכות[ ,השוה בזה דרשת רבנו הגרי"ד סאלאוויטשיק המפורסמת ,הובאה בקצרה בס' נפש הרב ,בליקוט"ת לפ' קרח ,ובס' השקפת הרב (של ר"א בית-דין) ,ח"א] ,כל מאן-דהו שלמד בישיבה יכול לפסוק ולהכריע עפ"י שכל עצמו ,ובפרט בזמננו ,שאת הכל אפשר לחפש ולמצוא באינטרנט ,ב"אוצר החכמה" ,וב"פרויקט השו"ת של בר אילן" ,וכדומה ,וכל אחד יכול לעשות א"ע כת"ח וכמורה הוראה ופוסק אף בשאלות חמורות ,כאילו יודע מעצמו את כל המקורות ואת כל השיטות -בסיוע כל הנ"ל[ .ואשר על זה ביארו (ע"ד ההלצה) -בכוונת הירושלמי (רפ"ד דדמאי) שעם הארץ -אימת שבת עליו ,שבשבת ,שאיננו יכול להשתמש במחשב שלו ,מפחד הוא (הע"ה) ש"יתפסוהו" ויראו ויבינו שבאמת איננו יודע]. והתפלא תי לראות היאך שאנשים בעלי שכל מפלפלים פלפול של הבל

    Posted 7 months ago #
  27. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    rabbiofberlin
    Rav Dovid Kronglass wasn't the typical Mashgiach at least not like the mashgiach that you think of today. Google about him. He was one of the gedolei hador.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  28. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    WIY: thanks for the note. You are not only right in what you are saying but it was a revelation to read his teshuvus- they are unbelievable broad and he literally is familiar with all shaalos uteshovos of recent vintage-including many obscure ones. His understanding and "amkus" in the gemoro and rishonim is breath taking.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  29. oomis
    Best Bubby EVER

    Whoever is modding this thread has a tankless job. "

    :)

    Posted 7 months ago #
  30. cherrybim
    Member

    As with Reb Moshe, Rabbi Kronglass soared beyond the title of Rav and in his lifetime was addressed and was known as Rebbe to his talmidim and simply as Reb Dovid to others.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  31. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    ROB: Not sure I agree with you that it isn't miskaven. After all, he wants to have hot water later too.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  32. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    ItcheSrulik: as most things, this is debatable and may hinge on whether a psik reisha de lo nivhe lei is indeed "lo niche lei" or "lo ichpas lei" (loshon of rashi in shabbos). Maybe he could use the warm water later but he may not care much about it. After all, there are 40 gallons of water in a tank- more than enough for washing dishes and hands, and mayb even a shower or two. AGAIN , please don't take the above discusssion as halacha- most Poskim forbid using the hot water when it brings in the cold water. I am just interpreting the other "tsad".

    Posted 7 months ago #
  33. When we had a new hot water boiler installed, we had a cut-off valve put in the pipe that feed cold water into the tank. Before Shabbos, we turn off the valve, cutting off the cold water feed. We then use the hot water remaining in the tank until it runs out (usually by Shabbos afternoon - fyi we do not take showers on Shabbos)

    It sure makes washing ourselves and the serving platters more pleasant !!

    Posted 7 months ago #
  34. How do you get the hot water out? Are you absolutely certain cold water isn't entering, forcing out the hot? It doesn't make sense to me, unless the heater is above your apartment - and you allow air in somehow. You should really check it out.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  35. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    Maybe it has a piston.

    Wanting the water to be hot later makes it Nicha but not necessarily Miskaven. However, often one causes the other, as per Tosafos 41b.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  36. twisted
    pretzel

    In Yalkut Yosef there is a long discussion of using the hot water from the typical Israeli setup, a roof top tank with a solar collector. He covers all the halachic bases, and is mattir.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  37. Re; Little Froggie

    I honestly do not know how it works. FYI the hot water heater is in the basement of our house.

    I just remember that we asked our Rov, and he told us which boiler to buy (I don't remember his specific reasoning) or how the boiler circulates the hot water. I seem to remember that it works with pressure (from the sinks). I do know that the boiler does not turn on all Shabbos, without the incoming cold water, it does not turn on at all.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  38. shmoolik 1
    Member

    In E.Y. they have solar water boilers that can be used on shabbat if set up properly see Shmirat Shabbat Ke Hilcoto -Noibert

    Posted 7 months ago #
  39. to my friend from Long Island:

    I think you should find out how exactly you're getting hot water out of the tank, if it's not being forced out by any water entering. Of course it works with pressure. Everything works with pressure (I wouldn't get up in the morning without pressure. I'd be forever hocking away here if not for pressure) There is no "pressure from the sinks" pulling out hot water. Something is pushing it out of the boiler in the basement, all the way up to your sink.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  40. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    Little Froggie: If you remember your physics class in high school, you'd realize that water always tries to find its equilibrium. The water in the tank will automatically run out of the tank,without any kind of pistons or pressure. As long as the inlet of the cold water is shut (as the posters indicated), all you have is the hot water running out of the tank. Nothing else and with no problem whatsoever in halacha.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  41. ROB:

    Okay, I admit, I never went through high school (gasp), I even started late (double gasp), was home schooled for first grade (wrote about that somewhere else - for those stalking me out here). So I never learned physics, advanced reading, writing, computer skills etc. Some things however I picked up myself, hands-on. (I am writing - and it's on a computer.)

    Now, kindly explain to me and our audience how water in a tank in the basement is "automatically" going to travel upwards to the sinks, without any pressure. (I may be extremely unlearned, ignorant in areas of Torah, Talmud, Halachah and Hashkafah, in regard to earthly matters I pretty much have a hang of matters)

    Posted 7 months ago #
  42. ROB,

    In the US almost always the hot water heater is on the lowest level of the house, thus there would be no way for the water to go anywhere if the inlet was closed.

    Perhaps you can do the same that you say you did with strawberries and try it.

    Turn off the intake valve for your hot water heater and then see if you get water from your hot water tap.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  43. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    Little froggie: You can handle a computer so just google- "water fasinds its own level-physics" and it will give you some idea why water comes out of a faucet without any pumps.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  44. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    nisht (and froggie); please google "hot water expansion tank' and you will see how tanks work.No pistons, no pumps, just air pressure.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  45. ROB,

    You are actually disproving yourself. Since water seeks equilibrium, how can it flow upwards to a level higher than the water tank? Remember the inlet is shut, equilibrium begins at most at that level. (assuming it does not have fight a vacuum that is created in the tank)

    Posted 7 months ago #
  46. ROB,

    So now you are changing your reason? Do you have an expansion tank? I don't. Most houses do not. That is only if there is a pressure regulator preventing normal expansion. It is a seperate tank. And that would only allow for a very small amount if water to flow.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  47. HaLeiVi
    Plays the aeolian harp by air

    ROB, but on its way to the sink it would change its mind and remember that really it wants to go back to the tank. It would probably figure all this out before starting out and stay right where it is.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  48. Nisht, HaLeiVi: That's exactly what I was getting at. Which was why I wanted my friend from Long Island to ascertain he has a system which is permitted.

    Posted 7 months ago #
  49. nem621
    Member

    I couldnt find the rabbi ribiat so it probably wasnt him

    Posted 7 months ago #
  50. rabbiofberlin
    Member

    Nisht and haleivi: you can google "how does a hot water tank work" ad it will show very clearly how the vast majority of such tanks work. No pistons,no pumps,just water pressure. Btw cold water is at the bottom. Check it out.

    Posted 7 months ago #

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