Was Haman an Eved Canaani?

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  • #1479748

    Haimy
    Participant

    THe midrash tells us the Homon sold himself to Mordechai as a slave, does that mean that he was partially Jewish as an Eved Canaani (if he had a bris utvilah ?

    #1479792

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    According to the chasam sofer and many others, yes. Take a look at how he explains that this is what made haman so mad – li higid lo ki hu – haman – yehudi, and the biggest insult to a goy is to call him a yid. My question then is kol mah shekana eved kana rabbo, so klapei shamayim haman bought the yiddin for mordechai – why did HKB”H need our shkalim first?

    #1479794

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    They weren’t in Eretz Yisrael and eved canaani is only from the seven nations of Canaan

    #1479802

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Please, dont believe that every midrash is fact
    . They’re not

    #1479811

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer, that even though the others were able to bow down to Haman, Mordechai could not because Haman was his slave and so people will say that he is bowing down to an idol form Haman was wearing and not giving respect to him. The midrash says that Mordechai actually showed the contract to Haman indicating that he cannot bow down in front of him. They were together in a desert were Mordechai provided bread to Haman if he sells himself as a servant. The Chasam Sofer goes so far to interpret כי הגיד להם אשר הוא יהודי referring to Haman. Mordechai was telling them that he cannot bow down to Haman because he is considered to be a Jew.

    #1479829

    laskern
    Participant

    Coffee Addict, why are you so sure that it only applies in Eretz Yisroel? The Rambam on eved knaani Avodim 8:9 says, ודין זה בכל זמן אפילו בזמן הזה שהארץ ביד העכו”ם it looks like it applies currently even though they were not in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1479978

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch paskens we can have an Eved Knani today in Chutz La’aretz.

    #1480085

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Laskern,

    From what the rambam says I’m understanding that it applies even when the goyim own Eretz Yisrael bit we still live there and have slaves

    Correct me if I’m wrong please

    I also just assumed since an ever canaani is called a canaani because it has to be a canaani (or emori…)

    #1480226

    laskern
    Participant

    Coffee Addict, See Hilchas Avodim in Shulchan Aruch Yorei Deah 267:17 about the rules that he becomes a Jew like a woman.

    #1480233

    laskern
    Participant

    See also there Siman 3-4 about how the eved has a choice to convert to Judaism.

    #1480272

    MDG
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s instructions for adoption mention acquiring a baby as an Eved for a moment.

    #1480314

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Rav Moshe’s instructions for adoption mention acquiring a baby as an Eved for a moment.”

    So we see that Rav Moshe holds that we can have an Even Knani today in America regardless of the secular law.

    “the rules that he becomes a Jew like a woman.”

    What’s the logical reason that Halacha puts an Eved in the same halachic obligations as a woman?

    #1480323

    laskern
    Participant

    MDG can you give me the source?

    #1480366

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, I think that the same way that a woman is according to the Kol Bo exempt from mitzvas that are time dependent because her responsibility is to her husband, similarly the servant has responsibility towards his master.

    #1480371

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, I think that it is no obligation to have an eved, so דיני דמלכותא דיני applies so you cannot go against the secular laws.

    #1480657

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: If MDG accurately cited Rav Moshe, then Rav Moshe permits owning an Eved.

    #1480703

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph look at the Bach above 267 starting v’eved an interesting discussion related to now.

    #1480711

    Joseph
    Participant

    Iaskern: I believe MDG is referring to Igros Moshe YD 1:162. It seems that Reb Moshe allows owning an Eved Knani nowadays.

    #1480722

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph obviously you did not see the above tshuva where he says clearly that if the government does not allow you, you cannot do it.

    #1480726

    laskern
    Participant

    The above tshuva gives a means to adopt a non-jewish boy such that when he grows up cannot retract the conversion which the government is ok with.

    #1480774

    laskern
    Participant

    He makes him eved knaani for a moment in order to free him and since it is temporary the government will not mind.

    #1480952

    Curious1000
    Participant

    There’s another tshuva about buying a shifcha from India so that a mamzer can marry her, but I don’t remember where it is offhand.

    #1481011

    laskern
    Participant

    Reb Moshe in Igros Moshe O”CH 6:2 says something interesting. A woman according to the Rabbenu Taam can make a brocho on a time dependent mitzva, but not an eved because he does not have a
    קדושת ישראל.

    #1481155

    GAON
    Participant

    : מכילתא סוף פ’ בשלח
    “רבי אליעזר אומר נשבע המקום בכסא הכבוד שלו, שאם יבא אחד מכל האומות (להתגייר-הגר”א) שיקבלוהו, ולעמלק ולביתו לא יקבלוהו, שנאמר ‘ויאמר דוד אל הנער המגיד לו אי מזה אתה ויאמר בן איש גר עמלקי אנכי’ (שמואל ב א יג) .נזכר לדוד באותה שעה מה שנאמר למשה רבינו אם יבא מכל האומות שבעולם להתגייר שיקבלוהו ומביתו (של עמלק-הגר”א) שלא יקבלוהו. מיד ‘ויאמר אליו דוד דמך על ראשך כי פיך ענה בך’. לכך נאמר-מדור דור

    Now according to the above, are you permitted to own a slave a Ameleki ?And if you do, is there any Gerus involved. I would say he has no Gerus status at all.

    Some say that all the assets of Haman really did belong to Mordechai..

    #1481351

    laskern
    Participant

    In מעוז צור we say רוב בניו וקניניו they say Haman had a shtar engraved on himself. The song seems to indicate that it belonged to Haman.

    #1481651

    Curious1000
    Participant

    GOAN: some say that the assets… who is that?

    #1481798

    laskern
    Participant

    Could be also, הרוגי מלכות, those killed by the monarch, their wealth belongs to the monarch. So Haman’s wealth would be hung together with him. He loses his wealth figuratively.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1481899

    GAON
    Participant

    They say it in regards to how did Mordechai take over Haman’s house (as in the Megillah) Hamans death was מחיית עמלק and part of it is to destroy all his assets (as in rashi and Sifri), they answer that it was really not Haman’s as the above. However not everyone agrees….

    #1482019

    laskern
    Participant

    GAON, As above that the house belonged to the monarch because he was killed through his verdict is no problem. He was able to give his own house to Esther, as the Megila says clearly that “Achashverus” gave the house to Esther.

    #1482033

    laskern
    Participant

    When Esther gave Haman’s house to Mordechai it was hers to give not Haman’s anymore. Maov was swallowed through Sichan. It became a new land. Similarly, says the Ben Ish Chay, when we do teshuva we are forgiven because we become a new person not responsible for our old deeds which was done by someone else.

    #1482048

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    The above I mentioned I think is לקוטי יהודה in the name of the אמת אמרי.

    “the house belonged to the monarch”

    That is another answer and some question that too, as Mored be’Malchus assets belonging to the king may only pertains to Malchei Yisrael and not to Non-Jewish kings. See below link Rashba that says its not so simple (4th line)
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1376&st=&pgnum=398&hilite=

    I think in sefer Hamitzvos RS”G of Rav Perlo has a lengthy discussion on that matter of the house…

    #1482073

    laskern
    Participant

    GAON, What do you do with מעוז צור? It looks like the wealth belonged to Haman before being hanged.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1482092

    laskern
    Participant

    GAON, what do you do with מעוז צור where it seems that Haman owned his wealth before being hanged?

    #1482113

    GAON
    Participant

    Asides that you can say diff pshatim (I recall seeing years ago something in the sefer Yalkut Ma’am Loaz – if you can get ahold of that let me know if you find anything) , the Ba’al haPiyut (is it a Rishon?) may hold that it pertains to Malchei Akum as well and not only to Yisrael…

    #1482426

    laskern
    Participant

    According to the Wikipedia:

    “Ma’oz Tzur” is thought to have been written in the 13th century, during the Crusades.[1] The first letters of the first five stanzas form an acrostic of the composer’s name, Mordechai (the five Hebrew letters מרדכי). He may have been the Mordecai ben Isaac ha-Levi who wrote the Sabbath table-hymn “Mah Yafit”,[2] or even the scholar referred to in the Tosafoth to Talmud (Bavli) Niddah 36a. Or, to judge from the appeal in the closing verse, he may have been the Mordecai whose father-in-law was martyred at Mayence (now Mainz, Germany) in 1096.

    #1482508

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    So it is a Rishon (note – some Piyutim are from the times of the Talmud like haKalir – I recall Tosfos using a Piyut leHalacha) and can very well be he does not go with the Rashba IF pshat is like the above..

    #1482752

    laskern
    Participant

    Maybe the Mordechai ben Hillel the student of the Meharam from Rothenberg who was also a martyr together with his teacher wrote the piyut.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  YW Moderator-100.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1482807

    laskern
    Participant

    The sefer Mishneh Sochir from Rabbi Yisochor Teichtal hy”d explains the meaning in the stanza with the gemora Megila 15:2 that Haman’s whole wealth was engraved on his heart. So when he was hung, his whole wealth was hung with him.

    #1482951

    laskern
    Participant

    It says that it refers to the 3rd Crusade 1189-92 Frederick Barbarossa the Red in the last stanza.

    #1489242

    GAON
    Participant

    “The sefer Mishneh Sochir from Rabbi Yisochor Teichtal hy”d explains the meaning in the stanza with the gemora Megila 15:2 that Haman’s whole wealth was engraved on his heart. So when he was hung, his whole wealth was hung with him.”

    FYI – As I stated earlier, I looked up the Yalkut Ma’am Loaz and he brings this very pshat in the name of Rabeinu Dovid HaNagid (ben R Avrohom ben haRambam)…

    #1489300

    Joseph
    Participant

    My Eved Knani escaped. If found please respond. Hashavas Aveida!

    #1489388

    laskern
    Participant

    If he runs to Eretz Yisroel, he becomes free.

    #1489548

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s why I’m hoping to recapture him before he gets anywhere near Eretz Yisroel.

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