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1. bein_hasdorim
   Member

   We Absolutely NEED To Educate Our Many Different Communities!

   ונשמרתם מאוד לנפשותיכם

   Now is a time for the family and klal yisroel to mourn the loss of a young vibrant member of klal yisroel.

   A valuable gem, a Korban Tzibur, that was torn away from our midst so brutally, by a cold blooded sociopath.

   May the blood of this little innocent child be avenged by
   the Creator and Master of all, our beloved Father HB"H,
   as only he can do.

   I will IY"H be launching a full educational awareness crash course,
   that is long overdue in our communities.

   It will cover safety precautions, awareness, critical thinking,
   preparation, and safe practices, as well as real examples of being irresponsible or just careless.

   I will C"V not point any fingers, but I will say what needs to be said,
   not sparing words. Naivety or just plain dumb will not fly anymore.

   I urge anyone who has valuable input as to foolish acts practiced and
   witnessed by yourself please help by posting.

   Please DON'T miss the point of EDUCATING the masses, by trying to disrespect any specific group or C"V use this as a springboard for any of bias you may have.

   Disclaimer; I am not talking about this tragedy, or anyone involved,
   hinting to any negligence.

   However I am using this as an opportunity to prevent future tragedies
   of which could be brought on by negligence.

   Posted 10 months ago #

2. bein_hasdorim
   Member

   Instance #1:

   A young mother walks outside on the avenue wheeling her baby in a
   carriage. When she gets to the street to cross she R"L pushes her
   carriage out into oncoming traffic. Is this sane behavior?!

   Does she realize that she is pushing her helpless baby into harms way?
   No! She doesn't, and that's the problem, naive, spaced out, whatever!

   "UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!"

   Solution: push your carriage sideways alongside you,
   not in front of you, then you stand and see when it is safe to cross.
   Then sraighten your carriage get it in front of you and cross safetly.

   _________________

   - - - - - - - - -
   __________________
   O
   T ,____/=>O/

   Posted 10 months ago #

3. bein_hasdorim
   Member

   Instance #2:

   A mother goes shopping on the avenue in the summer once again
   with her infant or young child in the carriage. The infant is roasting like a koran pesach in the carriage not shaded at all, his tiny feet uncovered, face exposed to the sun's harmful rays. Even if there is a translucent plastic covering him/her they are almost suffocating in the enclosure.

   Does the mother or nanny realize that this is dangerous?!
   No! She doesn't, and that's the problem, naive, spaced out, whatever!

   "UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!"

   Solution: Do not take out infants in their strollers for long periods of time in the summer. under 30 min maximum.

   Be sure to keep them always in the shade, even when you meet a friend on the ave and start shmoozing, your focus should be to move the child into a cool shop or to an awning or shaded area immediately.
   Keep them hydrated and cool.

   put proper age apropriate sunscreen, if applicable.
   keep track of time spent outside. This is your child, your responsibility!

   Posted 10 months ago #

4. kako
   Member

   Lock cars and homes. If you don't you are inviting trouble.

   Posted 10 months ago #

5. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   I hate to say this, but I've been railing about this point for a LONG time. In fact, back in 2006, I posted on my blog about an incident that happened to me at the Museum of Natural History. A man was there with his two young children (a boy and a girl, IIRC) and needed to use the restroom.

   I was waiting outside the restroom area because Eeees was in the bathroom and I was waiting for her to return before we went on to see the rest of the museum. While I was waiting, this gentleman asks me to watch his young daughter (perhaps about four or five years old) while he went into the bathroom. As I said about it on my blog:

   Just because I'm wearing a white shirt, kippah, slacks and have four days' growth on my face and chin* does not mean that your child is safe with me. How could you possibly think of leaving your child with a stranger, even if only for a minute? Just because I'm Jewish as you are doesn't mean that I couldn't be a psychotic murderer or kidnapper. (For the record, I'm not!) Consider yourself lucky that it was me and that your kid was there when you got back.

   The Wolf

   * It was chol hamoed Pesach.

   Posted 10 months ago #

6. Droid
   Joseph, again..

   So everyone should be paranoid about everyone else and hold unto their child until he or she is 13?

   Posted 10 months ago #

7. WolfishMusings
   The Wolf

   So everyone should be paranoid about everyone else and hold unto their child until he or she is 13?

   No. Unfortunately, sometimes things happen despite our best efforts to prevent them.

   In addition, at some point you have to let your kids grow up and be independent. What that time is depends on the age and maturity of the child and what the activity in question is.

   But, on the other hand, you should not be taking unnecessary risks -- and leaving your kids with strangers (even if they look frum) is a definite risk.

   The Wolf

   Posted 10 months ago #

8. DaasYochid
   Member

   But, on the other hand, you should not be taking unnecessary risks -- and leaving your kids with strangers (even if they look frum) is a definite risk.

   For goodness' sake, he had to go to the bathroom, and asked a frum guy to watch his kids for a minute! The chances of that particular person being a psycho are infinitesimal, and (I agree with Droid that) you can't live your life paranoid.

   Driving is a risk, as is crossing the street. should we avoid those?

   Posted 10 months ago #

9. real-brisker
   Now that's Brisk, Baby!

   Wolf - What would you have done better in this scenario?

   Posted 10 months ago #

10. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    and asked a frum guy to watch his kids for a minute! The chances of that particular person being a psycho are infinitesimal,

    A. How the heck did he know I was frum??? Just because I wore a white shirt and kippah?

    B. I'd argue the chances are greater than infinitesimal. Do you think Levi Aron is the first Jew to ever be accused of murdering another Jew?

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

11. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Wolf - What would you have done better in this scenario?

    Take the kid with you. Yes, that's right -- take a five year old girl with you into the men's room. Have her keep her eyes closed if you must.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

12. popa_bar_abba
    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a woman; not Mod 80. Sometimes a bit over the top.

    Just because I'm wearing a white shirt, kippah, slacks and have four days' growth on my face and chin* does not mean that your child is safe with me. How could you possibly think of leaving your child with a stranger, even if only for a minute? Just because I'm Jewish as you are doesn't mean that I couldn't be a psychotic murderer or kidnapper. (For the record, I'm not!) Consider yourself lucky that it was me and that your kid was there when you got back.

    I know a guy who lets his wife watch his kids. Lunatic! Just because she wears long skirts and a tichel doesn't mean you can trust her.

    Posted 10 months ago #

13. sms007
    Member

    I'm with wolfishmusings on this one. You can't trust anyone you don't know in today's world.

    Posted 10 months ago #

14. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    Take the kid with you. Yes, that's right -- take a five year old girl with you into the men's room. Have her keep her eyes closed if you must.

    And if it was your wife with your son. Would you suggest she take your son into the women's room? And up until what age. 5? 10? And what if he was older than your cut-off age. And how do you think the women inside would react to your son's presence there.

    Posted 10 months ago #

15. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    And if it was your wife with your son. Would you suggest she take your son into the women's room?

    At age 5? Absolutely.

    And up until what age. 5? 10?

    I think we can all agree that five year olds are too young to remain alone even for a few minutes. And I think we can also agree that most ten year olds *can* remain outside the bathroom for a few minutes. As to what specific age, that's probably dependent on the child.

    And how do you think the women inside would react to your son's presence there.

    I think most women would understand a five year old boy's presence there in those circumstances.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

16. real-brisker
    Now that's Brisk, Baby!

    Wolf - Well here is where the guy felt an need to argue with you. He obviosly felt that it is a bigger problem taking the girl into a "mens room".

    Posted 10 months ago #

17. mommamia22
    Member

    Washing my clothing in a laundromat, I took my focus off my 3 year old for several minutes, during which time he was busy playing nearby in an area with video games. Within minutes, I heard horrible screaming, only to find him with his fingers stuck inside a door that had closed on his hand. I foolishly trusted that he'd be safe, for just those few minutes. I should have put him in the stroller and let him scream from frustration.

    A friend of mine saw several young children sitting outside their house alone, without adult supervision. She approached the children and asked where their mommy was (inside, sleeping).
    She called the mother out, and pointed out the dangers of leaving young children unattended.

    Regarding the bathroom issue, I would take my boys with me regardless of how other women feel. Women's rooms have closed stalls, so in my opinion, any shame others may feel is surmounted by my desire to keep my family safe.

    Posted 10 months ago #

18. oomis1105
    Member

    At age 5, there is nothing wrong with taking a boy OR girl into the parental gendered restroom. What I would do differently? I would make sure both husband AND wife or a close relative of the opposite gender came along for exactly this reason.You do NOT ask a stranger to watch your child "just for a minute." I would never put myself in such a situation to begin with. A 10 year old is old enough to go into a public restroom alone, with a parent standing outside.

    Posted 10 months ago #

19. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    A 10 year old is old enough to go into a public restroom alone, with a parent standing outside.

    oomis - the question was is a 10 year old old enough to wait outside alone while his parent is inside? And what is the cutoff age?

    Posted 10 months ago #

20. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    He obviosly felt that it is a bigger problem taking the girl into a "mens room".

    If he thought taking his five year old daughter into the men's room is a bigger problem than leaving her with a total stranger, then, IMHO, his priorities are completely mixed up.

    the question was is a 10 year old old enough to wait outside alone while his parent is inside?

    I believe that most 10 year olds are capable of waiting outside for a few minutes.

    And what is the cutoff age?

    It will vary from kid to kid, depending on their maturity.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

21. DaasYochid
    Member

    How the heck did he know I was frum??? Just because I wore a white shirt and kippah?

    With a white shirt, five day shadow, on Chol Hamoed, no doubt in some typical Chol Homoed spot like a museum or zoo. Yes, it's a dead giveaway. Again, I'd argue that the chances of someone in those circumstances *not* being a frum Jew are infinitesimal.

    Do you think Levi Aron is the first Jew to ever be accused of murdering another Jew?

    It's the first case I've ever heard of in which one abducted an unknown child with these tragic results.

    Posted 10 months ago #

22. welldressed007
    Member

    education takes some time before the desired effects can be felt. In the interim more radical steps can be taken, for example the usage of GPS tracking devices, this would have a two fold effect, one the child is automatically more keenly aware of their surroundings and secondly their whereabouts are very traceable. This is not an expensive technology and can help solve and resolve so many issues.
    Just remember to be a Monday morning quarter-back is not the best policy.

    Posted 10 months ago #

23. whatrutalkingabt
    I need 2 know what u r talking abt

    "And how do you think the women inside would react to your son's presence there."

    Women bring their sons into the ladies room with them all the time. I've even seen boys that look to be 10 years old. No one ever seems to mind so its not a problem at all

    Posted 10 months ago #

24. oomis1105
    Member

    oomis - the question was is a 10 year old old enough to wait outside alone while his parent is inside? And what is the cutoff age? "

    Yes I know. It works either way. The problem was the four or five year old little GIRL that was asked to be watched by Wolf, wasn't it? You don't leave a child that young with strangers, no matter how friendly they appear to be. The older child could have gone inside with the father waiting with the younger one by the door, OR TAKE THE LITTLE GIRL with him, hold her and shield her eyes.

    After age 6 or so it becomes more problematic, and I would not put myself in such a situation. Go with your spouse whenever possible. Little boys DO need to use restrooms, and moms certainly cannot go into a men's room with an 8 year old son, nor should that son be in the ladies room.

    Posted 10 months ago #

25. real-brisker
    Now that's Brisk, Baby!

    Wolf - Well, he thinks your priorities are mixed up.

    Posted 10 months ago #

26. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    After age 6 or so it becomes more problematic, and I would not put myself in such a situation. Go with your spouse whenever possible. Little boys DO need to use restrooms, and moms certainly cannot go into a men's room with an 8 year old son, nor should that son be in the ladies room.

    Like oomis said, starting at age 6 it is a tznius prohibition for an opposite gender child to go into the other restroom. So will you leave a 6 year old outside by him or herself???

    Posted 10 months ago #

27. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Wolf - Well, he thinks your priorities are mixed up.

    You don't know that. It's possible that he simply didn't think of the potential danger and that, if he was made aware of it, would agree with me.

    Or do you claim to know the person in question?

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

28. real-brisker
    Now that's Brisk, Baby!

    Wolf - The guy felt its better to leave her with a frum looking man, then bringing her into the mens room.

    Posted 10 months ago #

29. mosherose
    dont keep repeating deleted posts

    Normal people dont take little girls into mens bathrooms no matter how young

    Posted 10 months ago #

30. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Wolf - The guy felt its better to leave her with a frum looking man, then bringing her into the mens room.

    That's fine. And I feel that he was stupid, reckless and damn lucky that I wasn't a kidnapper, murderer, sexual molester or any other type of person that would have harmed his child.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

31. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Normal people dont take little girls into mens bathrooms no matter how young

    You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

32. oomis1105
    Member

    Mosherose, you are incorrect. Moreover, I would LOVE to see how you would handle a screaming, "dancing" child who needs to get to the bathroom RIGHT NOW, in the same circumstance.

    Posted 10 months ago #

33. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    He would ask a nice frum yid to watch his child, just like the guy in Wolf's story did and just like DaasYochid, myself, and others indicated they would.

    Posted 10 months ago #

34. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Exactly. Only a pervert takes a little girl into a mens room

    If that's true, then I am more than happy to state that I am a pervert, since I have done so rather than entrusted my kids to complete strangers.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

35. DaasYochid
    Member

    He would ask a nice frum yid to watch his child, just like the guy in Wolf's story did and just like DaasYochid, myself, and others indicated they would.

    That works if the adult needs the restroom, not if the child needs the restroom.

    Posted 10 months ago #

36. DaasYochid
    Member

    Wolf, do you think the chances of harm coming to a child are greater in that situation (leaving for three minutes under the supervision of an obviously frum looking man), or taking the child in a car, or crossing the street with them?

    Posted 10 months ago #

37. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Wolf, do you think the chances of harm coming to a child are greater in that situation (leaving for three minutes under the supervision of an obviously frum looking man), or taking the child in a car, or crossing the street with them?

    IMHO, Leaving a child with a stranger is more dangerous -- whether they "look frum" or not. And I'm more than willing to be called "pervert" or the like to keep my kids safe.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

38. Sister Bear
    Granddaughter of "Da Bears"

    I don't know how many of you remember but a few months ago (forsure no more than 4) a couple of guys were arrested, they were going to blow up shuls in Queens and I think Riverdale. Their plan was to dress up as frum Jews and walk right in. Thank G-d they were caught before a tragedy happened. Maybe we didn't really learn the lesson then, that we have to be wary or strangers no matter what they dress like. Or that just because someone dresses differently than us doesn't make them a bad person (whether morally or hashkafically [I don't know the right words]). Therefore, we got a stronger message, in the form of Levi Aron.

    Just because someone looks like a frum Jew, and yes probably 99% of the time they are a frum Jew and there is nothing to be worried about, looks can be deceiving. Bottom of the line is that YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL. Yes, you can't live your life paranoid BUT you have can't be just because he looks like he's a good person, therefore he is a good person.

    It's not only about leaving your 5 year-old with a stranger for a few minutes, that's just an example. It's about having the right sense to know that not everyone can be trusted.

    Posted 10 months ago #

39. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    You say vus machst ah yid and when he replies geloibt is der aibershter you know your child is in good hands.

    Posted 10 months ago #

40. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    That works if the adult needs the restroom, not if the child needs the restroom.

    If the child needs the restroom the solution is even easier. You ask a frum person of the child's gender to take him into the restroom, while you wait right outside the door the whole time.

    Posted 10 months ago #

41. Sister Bear
    Granddaughter of "Da Bears"

    You say vus machst ah yid and when he replies geloibt is der aibershter you know your child is in good hands.

    Not necessarily does every frum person speak Yiddish. I for one would stare at you blankly, not necessarily a good litmus test.

    Posted 10 months ago #

42. Droid
    Joseph, again..

    You see what you lose by not speaking yiddish? If only you'd speak the common tongue you could find good yid in a moment!

    Posted 10 months ago #

43. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Not necessarily does every frum person speak Yiddish. I for one would stare at you blankly, not necessarily a good litmus test.

    If your premise is "speaks Yiddish" = "good person" then it's a great litmus test.

    I guess that means that us "perverts" who don't understand Yiddish are dangerous to children.

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

44. anonymrs
    Member

    my daughter is only 2, so i am not at that stage yet, but my son is 4, and i have taken him in with me quite a few times. he stands with his back to me and faces the door. usually i have both kids with me, so i go into the handicapped/diaper changing stall, and then theres a little more space.

    "That works if the adult needs the restroom, not if the child needs the restroom."

    "If the child needs the restroom the solution is even easier. You ask a frum person of the child's gender to take him into the restroom, while you wait right outside the door the whole time."

    is that really your solution- send your child off with a stranger? if my son needed to use the bathroom and i was alone, i would take him into the womens bathroom with me. i dont think i would get any stares- i have actually seen quite a few "big kids" in the womens rooms. if i got any looks or comments, i would just explain that i am alone with my children. i wouldnt take a 15 year old boy in, but maybe a 9-10 year old. it would depend on the child and the circumstances.

    Posted 10 months ago #

45. real-brisker
    Now that's Brisk, Baby!

    Wolf - So he felt its better to leave with a safek nice guy, then a vaday exposure...

    Posted 10 months ago #

46. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Wolf - So he felt its better to leave with a safek nice guy, then a vaday exposure...

    And, again, I think his choice was stupid, wrong and reckless. But what does a pervert like me know anyway?

    The Wolf

    Posted 10 months ago #

47. Midwest2
    Member

    And is it possible that you could find a security guard or a clerk and ask them to watch the child? Most stores now have security. It isn't a perfect solution, but it's worlds better than asking a stranger, no matter how "frum" looking. There are plenty of people wearing the "uniform" who are ganz crazy.

    As for never having heard of a frum yid killing before, what's true is that we've never heard of a frum yid killing a frum child before. That doesn't mean that some predator hasn't killed outside our community and not been caught. The world has never been a very safe place. We've been fortunate enough to live in a comparatively well-ordered society in the US, but it isn't perfect, and sooner or later incidents occur. Hoever, thinking and planning ahead will keep us safer than NOT thinking and planning ahead.

    Posted 10 months ago #

48. kako
    Member

    So, you say Yiddish is "the common language"? What about Sephardim? You just discarded about half of the Jewish population...

    Posted 10 months ago #

49. DaasYochid
    Member

    IMHO, Leaving a child with a stranger is more dangerous -- whether they "look frum" or not.

    I disagree (under the specific circumstancs we were discussing).

    And I'm more than willing to be called "pervert" or the like to keep my kids safe.

    As you should, if you feel it's unsafe. FTR, I never called you that, nor do I think it's even remotely true.

    Posted 10 months ago #

50. DaasYochid
    Member

    If the child needs the restroom the solution is even easier. You ask a frum person of the child's gender to take him into the restroom, while you wait right outside the door the whole time

    Many children would not be agreeable.

    Posted 10 months ago #

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