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Zalman: I don't mean this in a mean wat at all I just don't understand- wat r u trying to say?
YWN Coffee Room » Shidduchim
What Do I Wear On What # Date?
(148 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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Zalman: I re-read what u wrote a few times and now I understand what u mean, I agree that a girl whose not married or up do shidduchim shouldn't really wear makeup (they can wear lip gloss and mascara, that's not a big deal but they shouldn't be wearing the other stuff) I personally don't like make up at all, I think natural is much prettier but if ur going out u gotta wear! (And don't over fo it)
Posted 1 year ago # -
ames, not everyone does things correctly. That is no raya (proof).
Did you see my reference to the Tanchuma Vayishlach above, regarding makeup and perfume?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Zalman,
How is it tznius for you to be engaging in a discussion with young women regarding makeup?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Bemused,
The letzanim ask questions like that. The Rabbonim and the Seforim discuss these halachic issues, and they are discussed in the Beis Medrash as well.
And who is a young girl here? I'm not aware of most posters age or gender, unless they use an obvious name. (I have no idea what you are.)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ames: not all girls can live up to their schools standards
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ames, I didn't mean they disobey rules, I meant their not up to that
Posted 1 year ago # -
Girls should wear makeup if they feel they need it. Not everyone is blessed with clear skin, attractive features, and natural blush. Many girls are pale and washed out and very plain, some even homely, without makeup. Should they not feel better about themselves? There is no question that wearing makeup makes most normal, healthy girls feel and look better. It makes pretty girls stunning, and makes mousy girls prettier. Maybe we should all wear burlap sacks as well, since clothing really only needs to be functional to cover up the body. it would be wonderful if no one was attracted to a partner based on looks, but ther eality is that we are, and if a little makeup helps, so be it, and B"H we have many very natural makeup approaches.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Zalman,
Using an insulting name does not lend credibility to your stance. Yes, the Rabbonim and Seforim discuss these halachik issues. Frum men don't discuss these issue with young women they meet on the street and on the internet. These issues are discussed in the Bais Medrash as well, not on the streetcorner or on blogs.
I'm not sure who you refer to by "young girl", but I referred to young women, and you know very well who these are. Is discussing makeup with strange older women any more tznius?
I think some frum men are already past the slippery slope stage, engaging in conversations which are an astounding breach of our Mesorah of separation. The informal and highly personal dialogue found here between the genders on such a topic evidences the compromised state of tznius that is unfortunately seen with increasing frequency, particularly on the internet.
If you can handle the constructive criticism without resorting to insults, Zalman, you are definitely on the road up.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oz VeHadar Levushah
Pages 70/71Items of other cultures/highly fashionable items:
1. It is ossur min HaTorah for a man or woman to conduct themselves in a way that is typical of the cultures of the Umos HaOlam.
2. The issur applies to three types of garments:
(a) Strange looking garments
(b) Garments that project a feeling of superiority
(c) A garment that is pritzusdik:
The poskim write that a garment for females that onlooker to gaze at the wearer is subject to the issur of b'cholkoseihem. Being a pritzusdik garment, it belongs to other cultures and is foreign to Yiddishkeit (mekoros in appendex 46:7 and Responsa Divrei Chaim 1:30.)It follows that all forms of alluring dress, jewlery, makeup, and perfume are doubly forbidden (except when a woman is alone with her husband.) Firstly, it is pritzus to go around in such a way, and one who does so transgresses the issurim of "And your camp shall be holy" Devarim 23:15 AND Lifnei Ivur "Not to cause others to sin." Secondly she transgresses the issur of b'chulkoseihem - the issur of dressing in garments that are distictly designed to fit in with the pursuits of other societies.
Chazal say (Sanhedrin 37a) that the word "Beged" could also be read as "Boged" (traitor). With a garment a woman can either adorn herself, or chas v'shalom turn traitor to her people. See Yeshaya 24:16 where this tragic misuse of garments is spelt out in no uncertain terms.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Bemused,
Your comments fulfill the prototypical definition of letzanus. I don't know why you need to advertise your age or gender online, but no one would or needed to know it.
If you are opposed to certain halachos, so be it. Don't slyly project that rejection on others.
This too is said as constructive criticism that you can hopefully take to heart.
Posted 1 year ago # -
To doubly clarify what R' Bogen posted (I'm assuming a male title) the key adjective here is alluring.
So, don't wear alluring clothes/makeup on a date. Do be nice looking, clean, put together, and tznius--that is dignified as all Bnos Yisroel should be.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Bemused,
I'm sorry that the mussar you were given did not have the positive effect intended. But continual letzanus is not an appropriate response and I truly believe you are better than that.
There isn't any reason you or any poster needs to identify their age or gender as it is better left unstated. And unless someone is blogging on yw day and night, the likelihood is they will not know most others biographical data.
Again, I say this with the utmost respect and hope that you can do better in the future. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is holding a grudge against you.
Posted 1 year ago # -
In the Sefer that Bogen quoted, the alluring is referring only to the clothing ("alluring clothing"), while the rest of the items (jewlery, makeup, and perfume) are said to be assur unless used when a woman is alone with her husband.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Zalman,
I am truly sorry that you deflect sincere and constructive criticism by pretending your assertions for your defense are "Mussar". I give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are in your twenties or thirties and have difficulty with introspection. That comes with time.
I again suggest that you print out your post and its dialogue context, for this and other threads in which you have participated, and seek guidance from your Rosh Yeshiva. Perhaps your spiritual mentor will have hashpa'a over you, perhaps not. Regardless, I believe you understand my points fully, and look forward to posts from you that truly reflect a Ben Torah.
Hatzlacha Rabbah.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oz Vehadar Levusha is not a halcha sefer and should not be used to pasken.
Posted 1 year ago # -
tiz a good this topic is directly followed by "A Humorous Item"... it's getting kinda hot in here. Zalman & Bemused- stop stabbing at each other. This is just a general discussion- remember?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Good point :). And even if it's hot, just make sure you're all wearing appropriate attire... jk :)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oz Vehadar Levusha is a Halacha Sefer with an appendix containing the mekoros.
Zalman was giving tochocho.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I believe there was a story, perhaps mentioned in the gemara, about a man who lost his wealth & was forced to perform menial labor in order to earn a living. His wife used to dress in beautiful clothing & go out to meet her husband at the end of his workday, in order to help him feel better. If I remember correctly, she is praised for this behavior. Does anyone know the source for this anecdote?
Posted 1 year ago # -
The Big One:
Welcome back! I didn't expect you to say anything else. ROTFLOL
Posted 1 year ago # -
My school held very strongly with the sefer oz vehadar levusha. What makes it not a halacha sefer
Posted 1 year ago # -
This thread reminds me of my wife saying" this outfit is chalemodi and that one is more brisi the third one is bar mitzva style" and so forth.
Posted 1 year ago # -
lol I love hearing, this outfit is good for chol hamoed! It's so classic!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Sometimes, Oz Vehadar Levusha quotes sources that don't clearly support what the sefer claims that they do. For example, the Gemara in Pesachim teaches that the Torah doesn't mention the word "merkav" in connection with a zavah because it is indelicate to refer to a woman riding an animal in a straddled position under normal circumstances. This is because under normal circumstances it is only considered modest to ride sidesaddled. However, the gemara teaches that in cases where circumstances require even modest woman to ride straddled, such as when riding with children or riding on a mountainous trail or riding on a camel, it is fine to mention that they were riding straddled on the animal. The upshot of the gemara is that it is not lashon nekiya to reference behavior that is less than perfectly tzniyus. Derech agav, we see that it is considered untziyus for a woman to ride an animal straddled if she doesn't have a reason to do so.
This is the source that Oz Vehadar Levusha uses for saying that it is assur for women to wear pants. It is one thing to assur women wearing pants, but it is another to cite a source that is tangentially relevant at best.
This was just an example, but there are a lot of things that the sefer tries to assur that are not properly supported. Like video conferencing, for example. I can understand some people wanting to assur it, but saying that it is unequivocally assur is a ridiculous stretch.
Five years ago, my Rosh Yeshiva told me that he was sent a copy of the sefer by the author for review. My RY had about 400 "he'aros" on the sefer, many of which were arguments against different things written in the sefer. The author responded that he hoped to address many of those points in a later edition of Oz Vehadar Levusha. Does anyone know if a new edition has been published since then?
Posted 1 year ago # -
RY- you live in willi??
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oz Vehadar Levusha is used in the Bais Yaakov's. Today we suffer from a great machla of pritzus, that must be fought with all our might. You literally cannot walk in the streets of some of the frummest places, without running into "frum" pritzus. It is the Yetzer Hora of our generation.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It is the Yetzer Hora of our generation.
I thought that was the internet :-/
Posted 1 year ago #
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