what does "Get refusal" mean?

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  • #1199829
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “wishful thinking”

    ? DY, Joseph, Ubiquitin, and I all agree that Lenny should listen to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. Where is the wishful thinking? (there were probably others as well, and if so, I apologize for leaving you out – I can’t keep track of everyone).

    #1199830
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “k, I thought so, just checking.”

    “Why? Checking for what?”

    “because you seemed to be implying that’s not what he was saying. So I didn’t know if it was clear to everyone, and I wanted to make sure it was clear to Lenny since I sense his opinion is important to him, and he is likely to listen to him.”

    “Not sure what the point was of your first 2 paragraphs”

    “The point of the first two paragraphs was the part you disagreed with that you were trying to say he didn’t say…just saying”

    Since his words mysteriously disappeared, I can longer comment on precisely what he said. However, I do know that the reason I asked him what his point was was precisely because he sounded like he was saying those words in order to argue with someone and I didn’t know who in the world he was arguing with, since he wasn’t saying anything that contradicted what anyone else was saying!

    All he said was that IF the Rabbanim say that he should stay married, then he should do so. I think that we all agree with that, and I think it is important to point that out to Lenny as well, so he will know that is one possible outcome. He needs to be aware that there are different possibilities regarding what the Rabbanim might say and he has to be ready to agree with all of them.

    #1199833
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    sorry, I thought it had disappeared – I looked in the wrong place. And I already explained that there was no contradiction – sorry if you didn’t understand my explanation, but I’m not explaining again.

    #1199837
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, I misspoke… instead of “clarification” should have been “instructions” … going thru whitepages… for getting hold of Rabbi Cohen

    #1199839
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Nechomash, you say “Make her happy (work out your issues) and she won’t need a get.” I think your logic is one of the main reasons my wife has “checked out” & wants to get rid of me. About 11 yrs ago, my Rabbi told me exactly the same thing. I said how? He said figure it out. Per halacha, Jewish Press, D. Carnegie, etc… it’s impossible to make someone else happy. And telling a wife it’s her husband’s fault that she feels unhappy, imho, is totally counter-productive, leads to her really becoming and wanting a divorce.

    #1199840
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Per halacha, Jewish Press, D. Carnegie, etc… it’s impossible to make someone else happy.”

    It’s definitely possible to make someone else happy. The halacha says so very clearly. A husband has an obligation to make his wife happy.

    Regarding the Jewish Press and Dale Carnegie – they are not sources. I don’t know anyone who would use the Jewish Press as a source. Dale Carnegie is very wise, but even he is not a source.

    In any case, they were probably talking about someone who is depressed (and not because of you). But a husband definitely has the power to make his wife happy in most cases.

    #1199841
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Lenny, did you get through to Rav S.B.Cohen yet?

    #1199842
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, I spoke to Rav Cohen briefly. I told him what the issue was. He doesn’t go on this discussion board & I don’t think he even does internet. He said he w/ call me back. So I’m awaiting his return call. In the meantime, I’m goin to contact some counselors from a frum therapist referral website and see if they have experience working on wives who have “checked out.”

    #1199843
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, can you show me where it says “It’s definitely possible to make someone else happy. The halacha says so very clearly. A husband has an obligation to make his wife happy.” I don’t think it says that anywhere. Per jewishvirtuallibrary.orgl . . . making your spouse happy is not one of the marital obligations…. in fact, it’s absolutely impossible to make someone happy… but if i’m wrong, please point to your source

    #1199844
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    In “Chofetz Chaim, A Lesson A Day” by Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz & Rav Shimon Finkelman, footnote #113,in the name of Rav Hutner Zatsal.

    Jewishvirtuallibrary.orgl is not a recognized source.

    #1199845
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “In the meantime, I’m goin to contact some counselors from a frum therapist referral website and see if they have experience working on wives who have “checked out.””

    Lenny, can you hear me out for a moment?

    You already asked a Rav (the Rav from the beis din) what you should be doing. After speaking to both you and your wife, he told you that you should get divorced. That really makes two Rabbis who told you to get divorced since your Rav had told you to go to the Rav from the Beis Din in the first place.

    You told him that you would rather listen to the anonymous posters in the Coffee Room who do not know anything about your situation, and go to a marriage therapist in order to convince your wife that she is wrong for wanting to get divorced.

    You then posted in the Coffee Room asking people what would happen to you if you refuse to listen to the Beis Din and give your wife a Get (in a situation in which their hands are tied halachically and they can’t actually FORCE a Get on you – they can only tell you that it is what you are supposed to be doing).

    I found these last two facts rather disturbing. First of all, I was disturbed by the fact that you didn’t listen to the Rav from the Beis Din. And yes, even though I have never been in the situation, I do understand that it would have been a very difficult thing to do, and the natural thing to do is to try to rationalize and find a way out of listening. And no, I do not know what I would have done in the same situation, and perhaps, I would have done the same. So, no, I am not judging. It is not my place to judge, and since I am not G-d, it would be impossible for me to do so.

    What I can do is look at the facts, and say what you should have done whether or not it is difficult and whether or not most people in this situation would have been able to stand up to such a difficult test and do the right thing.

    So without being blinded by emotion, it seems pretty clear to me that if you speak to a Rav (or 2 Rabbanim) and they tell you to do something, you are obligated to listen to them (and to forget about what the anonymous posters in the Coffee Room said) even if they do not have the power to physically force you to do so.

    However, I understood that your next step was going to be to go to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen instead of listening to the Rabbanim with whom you already spoke. Even though, it is probably more appropriate to listen to the Rabbanim with whom you already spoke, I felt that I shouldn’t say anything at that point, since Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen is a very reliable and wise Talmid Chacham, and as long as you were willing to listen to him (the 2nd or 3rd Rav you are going to), and not keep searching until you find a Rav who will say exactly what you want him to say, I feel like it’s not such a problem.

    My understanding was that you would listen to whatever he told you, whether it would be to go for marriage therapy or to give your wife a Get. I thought that if he did tell you to go for marriage therapy, you would go to the marriage therapist that He, as a Rav, recommended.

    So I understand that you didn’t get through to him yet. These things can take time. First you have to be able to reach him by phone. Then, presumabl, you have to find a time when he can meet by you. He has to speak to both you and your wife. Then he has to make a decision.

    Understandably, you are impatient. You want this taken care of already. But, you have to be patient. You can’t just look for a therapist online on your own. We have a Torah, and we have Rabbanim who guide us as to how to listen to the Torah. Not every therapist is someone who would be recommended by our Rabbanim. Not every therapy works according to ideas that fit with Torah, or with common sense for that matter. There are a lot of really bad therapists out there who can make things much, much worse.

    I am not against psychology or therapy. I am very in favor of it. In fact, I almost went into the field. But, you can’t just go to any therapist. You need to speak to someone wise who can tell you which, if any, therapist you should be going to. That is why you are going to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. So be patient. Wait and see how he tells you to proceed.

    And, yes, there are many things that one can get away with in this world. Look at Hitler, yemach shemo, l’havdil. Look at all of the Arab terrorists. But we do not live in this world in order to see what we can get away with .

    We live in the world to do the right thing, to do Hashem’s Will. So please, Lenny, for the sake of your portion in the World to Come, which is ready and waiting for you, and for the sake of your wife’s peace and sanity, and for the sake of your children who deserve an example of a father who bends his will to Hashem’s Will, do the right thing. Wait till you have a chance to speak to Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen and he tells you what the right thing to do is, what Hashem wants you to do.

    And, no you will not find the answers online. And no, Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen will not be found online. The real Torah Greats, the people whose advice you should be seeking and following will not be found online. (or at least it is extremely unlikely).

    I don’t think there is anything more that can be said. I wish you hatzlacha in finding out what Hashem wants you to do and in having the strength to do it. I know it will be very hard, but the harder it is, the more reward you will ultimately receive although it may take a while in coming. But it will be worth it in the end. I wish you the best.

    #1199846
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, if a wife wants a divorce, and the husband hasn’t done anything terriby wrong, would there ever be a valid reason for the husband to say no?

    #1199847
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Lilmod, if a wife wants a divorce, and the husband hasn’t done anything terriby wrong, would there ever be a valid reason for the husband to say no?”

    You have to ask a Rav (a real one -not an online one). Every situation is different. As a general rule, if one person really wants to get divorced, I think it would be the right thing to do. And beneficial to everyone in the long run. As a certain Rebbetzin I knew used to say, “better 4 happy people than 2 unhappy people.”.

    But again, you should be speaking to Rabbanim, and not to online posters. There are too many people here answering your questions, people whom you have no idea who they are, how intelligent they are and whether or not they have any idea what they are talking about. It is too tempting to choose to listen to those whose advice you like whether or not it is the right thing to do.

    #1199848
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, u do realize our Rabbi (mine & my wifes) said he didn’t know what we should do. He told us to speak to the Lakewood Rabbi for a shaila. The shaila Rabbi was all about what’s easiest… just give her a Get if that’s what she wants. The shaila Rabbi said all the halachic grounds for denying the Get are irrelevant because I’ll just be miserable. You are correct that no Rebbeim are lining up & tellign me to hold off on the Get. But aside from the Shaila Rabbi, the Rebbeim aren’t exaclty lined up & urging me to give a Get either. My wife & I are meeting later this week w/ a $150/hr marriage therapist in Lakewood. The therapist is also a Rabbi & had a bunch of kids in the background. So he seems legite. G-d willing this counselor will provide sound guidance. (Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen never got back.) Thanks.

    #1199849
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    My understanding was (and is) that the shaela Rabbi was very strongly in favor of a Get.

    “But aside from the Shaila Rabbi, the Rebbeim aren’t exaclty lined up & urging me to give a Get either.” What Rebbeim could possibly be lining up and urging you to give a Get? You only spoke to one (or two, depending how you count). And I think you should only be speaking to one (or maybe two, 3 at the most).

    “The shaila Rabbi was all about what’s easiest… just give her a Get if that’s what she wants” It sounds like he thought this was the right thing to do. If he thought it were right to stay married, he wouldn’t tell you not to just because it’s harder. He may have presented it that way because he saw you didn’t want to give a get, and he was trying to convince you.

    Keep in mind that when you ask a sheilah, you are answered according to the way in which the sheilah was asked. You didn’t ask “what is the right thing to do?” So the Rav didn’t phrase his answer that way since he saw that wasn’t your main concern. He sensed (from the way you asked the question) that your main concern was “what will be good for me?” so he answered you accordingly. I think that if you had phrased the question, “what is the right thing to do from a Torah perspective?”, he may have answered you differently.

    I’m glad you are going to a Frum therapist. However,I do think it’s a good idea to go to someone who was recommended by a reliable Rav, since you never know. Just because he is Frum and a Rabbi doesn’t necessarily make him a good therapist. But the fact that he is Frum and a Rabbi and lives in Lakewood does relieve me.

    You may want to call Relief to check if he is someone whom they recommend, and/or to find out who they do recommend. Relief is a Lakewood-based organization that gives therapist referrals. They are very well known and accepted, and they do thorough research on the therapists. The phone number is in the Lakewood phonebook and I think it is available online. If you can’t find it, I can look it up for you. I think the moderators would allow that – I think I have already posted it on a previous thread, actually.

    Therapy is expensive. I’m not sure of price ranges, but I think that $150 may be considered a good price (or at least average).

    I am glad you are being proactive. I don’t think that therapy is a bad idea. It’s what I personally would have recommended. But I am not a Rav, and unlike the Rabbanim you spoke to, I never met with you or your wife and don’t know the details and am not qualified or experienced in these matters. So my hesitancy comes from the fact that they are advising you differently. But in any case, it certainly doesn’t hurt to see a therapist one time and to see what he says while you are waiting for Rav S.B. Cohen to get back to you. Just try to check him out with Relief. Or maybe ask your Rabbi if he ever heard of him.

    I would just add that I once spoke to someone from Relief about what they do and I am pretty sure that he told me that there are a small percentage of therapists who are good. So I really would recommend checking this therapist out. The wrong therapist could potentially do more harm than good (and take your money anyhow).

    Hatzlacha Rabba!

    #1199850
    Joseph
    Participant

    Lenny, keep bugging Rav Cohen till you get a conversation with him. It’s well worth it. And that’s often what it takes to get hold of an important Rov like Rav Cohen. And my advice to you is to take his advice to heart and follow through with it. He is a highly recommended and strongly held of Rov.

    lilmod, I strongly disagree with your statement declaring it generally a good idea to divorce when one spouse wants to and the other doesn’t. The Torah also disagrees with that being a general rule, as the Torah explicitly states a wife generally cannot get a divorce if she’s the only one wanting it. And Rabbeinu Gershom made that even stronger by enacting that even a husband cannot divorce his wife if she doesn’t want to divorce, whereas by Torah law he could have previously. So he felt so strong about it he completely banned unilateral divorce even where the Torah previously permitted it.

    Also, I think there’s no basis for your assumption that a divorce will lead to four happy people instead of two unhappy ones. You’re assuming without reason that a) both spouses will be able to remarry and b) their second marriages will both be happier than their first. I can tell you that countless times divorcees, for whatever reason, could not find someone to remarry to. And countless more time where when they did remarry they were not happier on the second round than on the first. Sometimes they were even more miserable. And more times than can be counted, some explicitly admitted they regretted getting divorced in the first place. Even when they can remarry typically it is to another divorcee who has their own set of issues.

    #1199851
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The Torah also disagrees with that being a general rule, as the Torah explicitly states a wife generally cannot get a divorce if she’s the only one wanting it.”

    That’s not necessarily a proof. We don’t necessarily know the reasons for that halacha. One possibility is that women are more emotional and may be too quick to give a get without taking time to think it through, so the Torah couldn’t allow that. That has no relevance for a situation in which a lady has been wanting to get divorced for 20 years. Or even for several years. When I wrote that sentence about a “general rule”, I was not referring to a case in which a lady suddenly decided she wants to give a divorce on the spur of the moment. I was referring to a case such as Lenny’s since that is the situation at hand.

    There can be many reasons that the Torah (Hashem) doesn’t think that a divorce should be something that a wife should have the power to force on her husband. But that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be doing it. The fact that the Torah doesn’t give someone the power to force something on someone else does not necessarily mean that Hashem doesn’t want them to do it.

    Maybe the Torah feels that it is better if the husband comes to the decision on his own and doesn’t feel that it was forced on him by his wife. Maybe it is better for a marriage if a husband doesn’t feel that his wife has a right to divorce him at any moment and if she doesn’t feel like she can do that. The point is that there can be many possibilities, and it is far from being a proof.

    #1199852
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Also, I think there’s no basis for your assumption that a divorce will lead to four happy people instead of two unhappy ones.”

    I was quoting the Bostoner Rebbetzin, zts”l. I didn’t mean it (and I don’t think she meant it) as an assumption. The point is that if you get divorced, it becomes a possibility. And I know of many cases in which the remarriages were successful and did lead to 4 happy people. (actually I know of one case in which a total of 3 divorces ultimately led to 6 happy people).

    Statistics about the number of people whose second marriages ended in divorce are irrelevant, since there are many people whose second marriages are successful. The key is to examine the differences between those that were and those that weren’t so that you can make sure that you are in the second category. From the situations that I know of, it seems like whether or not the people involved go through therapy (after the divorce, before they get remarried and throughout their second marriage) makes a big difference.

    In any case, despite that quote, I actually don’t think that one should get divorced assuming they will get remarried. But they are creating the possibility for there being 4 happy people instead of 2 unhappy ones.

    #1199853
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph: “Lenny, keep bugging Rav Cohen till you get a conversation with him. It’s well worth it. And that’s often what it takes to get hold of an important Rov like Rav Cohen. And my advice to you is to take his advice to heart and follow through with it. He is a highly recommended and strongly held of Rov.”

    +1 (with slight reservations on the “bugging” depending how literally that is taken)

    #1199855
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, how do you explain the super high divorce rate for second marriages?

    #1199856
    Enough Divorces
    Participant

    Lenny,

    May I ask who is the therapist that you and your wife are scheduled to go to?

    I agree with Joseph and Limud that you’ll be better off getting hold of Rabbi Cohen and following his recommendations. You can’t afford to make another mistake at this point. Also, I agree with Limud that Relief is a good resource, although not to be totally relied on.

    #1199857
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Lenny, May I ask who is the therapist that you and your wife are scheduled to go to?”

    I was considering asking the same question, but decided it would not be a wise idea. The purpose of asking such a question is so that we can tell him if we think it’s a good therapist or not. I don’t think that is something that should be done on a public forum. Additionally, there may be people answering the question for all the wrong reasons.

    While you are allowed to ask such questions for “toeles”, there are many conditions needed. Asking a question like that in a public forum is almost definitely forbidden. Even just asking him for the name of the therapist is avak loshon hora since it is likely to lead to L”H.

    Additionally, the people answering may not be qualified to do so. He should definitely check the therapist out, but not here (on a public forum). He should either call Relief or ask a reliable Rav who knows about these things. As soon as he gets in touch with Rav S.B. Cohen, he should definitely ask him (even if it’s too late to change the appt. at that point).

    Additionally, there may be further L”H problems if after he sees the guy, he tells us things about him (if we already know his name).

    #1199858
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Lilmod, how do you explain the super high divorce rate for second marriages?”

    In at least some cases (and probably many), the person never worked on the issues that led to the first divorce. And this does not mean that the person was a bad person or even necessarily, the one “at fault” for the divorce.

    I’ll explain what I mean. I am in shidduchim, and often divorced guys are suggested to me. Sometimes, while checking them out, I find out that they have been divorced twice. A very common pattern is that the guy was the sensitive type and his wife was too strong – both times. Seemingly, the wife is “at fault” for being too strong and not being sensitive enough.

    I then ask the reference, “Don’t you think maybe the guy has a problem that needs worked out if he keeps getting into the same situation?” The response always is, “Of course, but it is very hard to tell someone that they need therapy if they don’t realize it themselves.”

    I have had this exact same conversation several times when checking out divorced guys.

    If someone goes through a divorce, they MUST go through some kind of therapy procedure. They can’t just say, “it was my husband (or wife’s) fault. It is never that simple. Each person is somehow a party to the situation – even if it was just a matter of “falling” for and marrying the wrong type of person (although I think there is usually more to it than that anyhow).

    A relationship always involves two people. If you got into a certain situation once, it can and probably will repeat itself if you don’t try to figure out what happened, why it happened, and what you can do to try to avoid it next time.

    Another important point that I think I should mention here – it seems to me that your approach regarding your situation is to try to figure out who is to blame. That is a very natural response, and the way that most people deal with most conflicts.

    However, it is counter-productive and meaningless. The issue is not “who is to blame?” The question is, “Is there something that I can do differently?”

    People don’t like to look at things that way, because they feel that it is an acknowledgement of guilt. But it is not. No one is perfect; we are all trying our best with the tools G-d gave us. If you think you are perfect, then that is a problem. Everyone can improve – not because they are bad, but because that is what life is about – constantly trying to see how we can be better.

    If something is not working out (whether it’s your fault, her fault or both), you should be trying to see what you can do differently. Even if it is too late for this marriage (which may be the case), you have to figure this out so that things will be different next time.

    If you do get divorced, it is crucial that you go for therapy afterwards. If you do get remarried, it is crucial that you go for therapy both beforehand and during the entirety of your second marriage. (to a reliable therapist, of course).

    #1199859
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “May I ask who is the therapist that you and your wife are scheduled to go to?”

    It may not be such a good idea to give out that information on a public forum

    #1199860
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Lenny, it occurred to me that I may be able to get you information on good marriage therapists in Lakewood if you are interested. I know someone in Lakewood whom people often turn to for advice on getting divorced. I know that she is very in favor of therapy (she is divorced and remarried herself -that’s why people often call her for advice), so I would guess that she might know about therapists. I would still advice calling Rav SB Cohen and/or Relief about it, but if you don’t get through right away and I am able to find something out, I will let you know, bli neder.

    #1199862
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmos, is it possible the Bostoner Rebbetzin may have just been trying to make divorcees feel better & not really have been advocating for divorce, i.e., “divorce will lead to four happy people instead of two unhappy ones.” It sounds very anti-halachic.

    #1199863
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    On the therapists, I’m definitely settled on who I’m going to. Why? Because all the other therapists I was speaking to; who weren’t religious but were free thru my work’s Employee Assistance Program, said if the wife wants a divorce then that’s it. They’re not going to try & talke the other person out of their poositon whether warranted or not. Vs. my marriage counselor in Lakewood who said if he didn’t see a reason for the divorce, and one spouse wanted to keep the marriage going, he would definitely try bringing the divorcing spouse around. I won’t mention his name now. However, if he’s successful or at least gives it a good shot, I’ll mention his name along with a hearty endorsement.

    #1199864
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The Bostoner Rebbetzin was talking to people who were considering divorce and encouraging them to get divorced. Her own parents were divorced so she knew that it can be better for people to get divorced and that it can be better for the kids.

    It’s not anti-halachic at all. According to halacha, you can and should get divorced in certain cases. That is why the Rav of the Beis Din told you that you should get divorced.

    #1199867
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Have you tried Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen again?

    #1199869
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, I would almost have to see it to believe it. So couples without any hardcore reasons for a divorce would ponder the subject. The Rebbetzin would chime in & say “i encourage you guys to divorce because you may be happier.” I guess anything is possible.

    #1199871
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    No, they had a good reason to get divorced. There are good reasons to get divorced. And she didn’t chime in. They asked her advice and she told them what they should do, the same way that you asked the Rav what to do and he told you that you should get divorced.

    #1199872
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Did you try Rav SB Cohen again?

    #1199873
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, negative. I haven’t tried Rav SB Cohen again. I so fully agree w/ the counselor we’re going to see that I have absolutely no interest in any other counselor. This guy had like kids screaming in the background; demanding to know why a Get was needed; not seein it; it all added up that I want to stick w/ this guy. Also, the only Rav who said i should get divorced said it was because it was easier than fighting it. Thanks.

    #1199875
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    So basically, this is the situation as I understand it. You asked for advice. Everyone here agrees that you should speak to a Rav. Everyone agreed that Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen is a reliable Rav and you should listen to what he says. Now, if I understand correctly, you have decided that instead of asking a sheilah, you are just going to do what you want to do and find someone who will help you to do it.

    #1199876
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, the Sheila rabbi told us to go for counseling. He somehow got my wife to agree to go for five sessions. We are being compliant with the Sheila’s instructions.

    #1199877
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If that’s what the Sheilah Rav said, then great. You had not mentioned that before. But you still have to go to the right therapist. Anyone can call themselves a therapist (I mean they have to have a degree, but that is meaningless. It’s not the degree that makes someone a good therapist). And the wrong therapist can do more harm than good.

    In any case, it’s still kidai to get in touch with Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen. He is very experienced in these matters.

    In any case, I am very relieved to hear that you are complying with the Sheilah Rav’s instructions. Thank you so much for telling me that! I feel much better now that I know that.

    I do agree with Joseph that you may have to keep bugging Rav S.B. Cohen.

    #1199878
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    btw, did you try running the therapist’s name past the Sheilah Rav or your own Rav?

    #1199879
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Lenny please DO NOT GIVE OUT THE THERAPIST’S NAME this is personal information. I am sorry for using upper case but I think this personal information which shouldn’t be broadcasted over a public forum.

    I am sorry you are having trouble speaking to Rabbi Simcha B. Cohen. He is a very busy man as he is a rabbi of a shul, an author and a public speaker. I do not know him personal but have heard of him. On a day like X-mas or New Years go to his shul he will probably be giving lectures for the public and approach him afterwards. Saying something like this. If Rabbi Avigdor Miller was alive, ( his wife’s grandfather) you would have been asking him. If Shmuel Elchonon Brog (his father-in-law) was alive you would seek his counsel, unfortunately they are both no longer here so you are wondering if the Rabbi would give me some sagely advise.

    May Hashem grant you strength and understanding to overcome this situation. Wishing you the best.

    #1199880
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Abba_S, you’re sayin even if I have a positive experience with my therapist and think others can benefit, i still shouldn’t share his name? Of course, if my experience is negative, I won’t disclose his name. Isn’t it better for the community to know of good therapists that are more easily accessible than a perfect therapist you can’t get hold of? And Lilmod, the sheila Rabbi we went to, who came highly recommended from our Rabbi, had your position on just giving the Get if that’s what she really wants. So given that I personally spoke to the therapist we’re about to see, and got a really good feeling from the discussions, I’m just going with him. Thanks.

    #1199882
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Abba +1.

    except that Lenny can’t afford to wait until the end of December. If you keep trying, you can get through to him. Whenever I have tried, I got through within around 2 days. Just ask his wife when you should call back.

    #1199883
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Abba_S, you’re sayin even if I have a positive experience with my therapist and think others can benefit, i still shouldn’t share his name”

    One possible problem I can see is that you may consider something to be positive that someone else may can consider negative, so it would still be a problem of loshon hora.

    In general, there are just so many confidential and privacy issues involved in therapy, it’s not a good idea to give out his name in such a public forum, especially since you have shared so many details of the case. You might inadvertantly quote him in a way that he wouldn’t want to be quoted.

    If you really, really want to give his name, the only way I can see it’s being at all okay would be if you asked him first and let him know exactly what you were writing.

    I still wouldn’t recommend it though.

    #1199884
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Lenny

    Ok so you dont have to give your wife a divorce

    BUT

    Your wife doesnt have to cook for you, clean for you, talk to you or even be in the same room or house with you

    #1199885
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “And Lilmod, the sheila Rabbi we went to, who came highly recommended from our Rabbi, had your position on just giving the Get if that’s what she really wants.”

    I’m confused. I thought you said in the last post that he did tell you to go for therapy. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying now that you are not listening to what the Torah said to do. I may have misunderstood you, so please clarify. Thanks!

    #1199886
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Lilmod, the shaila rabbi said he recommended I give a get… when I said I would first have to try counseling, he got my wife to agree to five sessions. But his preference was to just give her a get if she really wanted it.

    #1199887
    Lenny1970
    Participant

    Saha, gameplan is for counselor to convince my wife to stay in marriage for the right reasons and not to do what you’re implying… otherwise you’re correct on what the outcome wiil be.

    #1199888
    Meno
    Participant

    “gameplan is for counselor to convince my wife…”

    Just a heads up, a good counselor won’t try to convince you or your wife of anything. That’s not how therapy/counseling works.

    Also, knowing that she only committed to 5 sessions will make the counseling very stressful. It sounds like you had no other option, but that’s just the reality. It’s unreasonable to expect a major change of heart from just 5 counseling session.

    #1199889
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno – glad you joined the conversation since you seem very knowledgeable on the topic.

    Any advice as to how Lenny can know if this is a good therapist or not?

    #1199890
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Lilmod, the shaila rabbi said he recommended I give a get… when I said I would first have to try counseling, he got my wife to agree to five sessions. But his preference was to just give her a get if she really wanted it.”

    okay, as long as you are keeping in touch with a Rav throughout the process and following through with what he tells you to do.

    #1199891
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Lenny I am advising you not to reveal the marriage counselor until you have finished using him. As far as waiting to X-mas to approach Rabbi Cohen my point was that you have to go down there and try to meet him in person and I was using those days as they are not work days. You could go any day but you would be missing a day of work.

    If the marriage counselor therapy fails which is quiet likely then go back to the Rabbi in Bais Hora. Tell him you are thinking of giving your wife a get but you would like to know in advance what it’s going to cost you and what the custody arrangement is going to be. According to Jewish Law the wife is only entitled to the Ketubah which is somewhere between $50,000 to $75,000. Your wife will have to explain how is she going to be able to support herself and your children and maintain the same standard of living. She may come to the realization that the marriage wasn’t so bad. If this doesn’t convince her to remain with you, you can ask for a six month trial separation, but only do this once the financial and custody have been resolved. Perhaps living alone will convince her that she needs you. Otherwise I think you both need to get divorced. If you do not get divorced your wife may make your life a living hell. You are young enough that you can remarry and have a new family. If you stay to the bitter end it will cost you both financially and psychologically.

    I agree with what you are trying to do and will back you in this forum no matter what you do. May Hashem give you the strength and understanding to overcome this.

    #1199892
    Health
    Participant

    Abba-S -“According to Jewish Law the wife is only entitled to the Ketubah which is somewhere between $50,000 to $75,000.”

    Unfortunately, most go to civil court along with giving a Get.

    In civil court, not only do they figure out the child support and the alimony (if she’s entitled) according to how much you make, but they can also include how much you can also potentially make!

    This can make a person to become broke!

    Yet another reason why not to get divorced!

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