What Happened With Ezras Nashim In Boro Park On Monday Night?

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  • #1293066

    Saichel yashor
    Participant

    I have read all of he recent news about the EN. I don’t know how much of these stories are made up but there is definitely some truth here.
    After looking at the EN website and other info about the organization I don’t understand how they can do what they are doing. I can understand having women for basic birth related emergencies but that’s all, for many reasons. Everyone agrees that Hatzolah is faster more professional and has years of experience. Along with the experience is knowing what to do in cases far and beyond what they are trained for. To have a new organization come and try to get experience at the cost of other lives is crazy. They also don’t come close to as many members which will impact response time. Another thing when it comes to response time is the physical aspect men can move faster, drive faster and don’t have tzinius to worry about when they are running (yes women must worry about tznius even on a call.
    That’s all for practical reasons. As far as Halacha men can treat women on calls, however this whole thing of women going out on calls is not acceptable for tznius reasons. I also don’t see a single endorsement for going on full time emergencies. The videos from Reb Chaim and Reb Aaron Leib said that its an organization where women help out childbirth that’s it not running on calls of all facets. Reb Yizchok zilberstein and Rav Elya Ber said that if the women are equally as good to deliver care then go with them, however they are not on par with Hatzolah. The letter from Rebbetzin Kalodetsky has nothing to do with EN rather a group of women in Beitar Illit.
    Lastly if this organization was kullo lishma it’s one thing, however hearing words like we do all Mens jobs so why can’t we do this as well, which was said on an interview, as well as advertising to drive that you will get a car with lights and sirens doesn’t sound lishma to me.
    May we all do things for real causes where there is a need and only bring Hkbh nachas.

    #1293125

    Health
    Participant

    Saical Hayosher – Change your name to Hatzolah Macher

    “Along with the experience is knowing what to do in cases far and beyond what they are trained for”
    What does this mean?

    #1293137

    Health
    Participant

    NDG -“This was a suggestion by someone arrogantly referring to himself as a health professional. I would guess that you may be an HHA.”

    IDK why it’s arrogant to refer myself as a health professional?
    I can’t be an HHA, because I don’t know what that is!

    “You also apparently have a beef because Hatzolah did not admit you. Which does not in the least seem surprising.”

    Stop with your lies, to protect your beloved Hatzolah. I did not say that my beef was that they didn’t admit me. You made that up! As a matter of fact, I wrote I didn’t​ blame them because I wasn’t married at that time.

    “You also want to run hatzolah for pay. An organization that has hundreds of people volunteering, but you are soooo good that you would demand pay.”

    You get what you pay for!

    “Thank you for clearing yup for all of us why:
    2) Why you will not tell us what type of health professional you are.”

    Because I’m more than one! And it’s not just EMT & paramedic, like Hatzolah guys.

    “3) Why you do not practice in the health field.”

    Why do I have to explain that to you? Maybe it’s private.
    IMHO, people like you either on Hatzolah or worship them!

    #1293194

    Saichel yashor
    Participant

    Health: Are your initials RF and happen to be a judge….
    Most of us don’t worship Hatzoloh rather appreciate the amazing lifesaving work they do and don’t like when other people disturb that work in exchange for people that can hardly put on a band aid.

    #1293202

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Health: HHA= Home Health aide.

    I am related to a number of Hatzaloh volunteers although I am not a member of Hatzaloh nor do I worship them. However, having knowledge of the training courses they attend and having personal experience over the years with Hatzaloh having answered numerous calls on behalf of my family I am grateful for their existence.

    #1293326

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hatzolah took decaded to get where they are. EN has been around for just a short while.

    #1293329

    Health
    Participant

    Saichel yashor -“Health: Are your initials RF and happen to be a judge….”

    My name is not Judge Frier. And I’m a male and I have nothing to do with Ezras Noshim!

    “Most of us don’t worship Hatzoloh rather appreciate the amazing lifesaving work they do and don’t like when other people disturb that work in exchange for people that can hardly put on a band aid.”

    Who can’t put on a band-aid – me or EN?
    What you don’t understand, is that people need a choice – either Hatzolah, EN or EMS!
    It’s funny, how YWN allows topics trashing EN, but I doubt if they would allow anyone to start a thread trashing Hatzolah!

    #1293339

    Health
    Participant

    iacisrmma -“having personal experience over the years with Hatzaloh having answered numerous calls on behalf of my family I am grateful for their existence”

    So you like playing Russian Roulette?!? At least with EMS, there’s the option of a lawsuit when they mess up. But with Hatzolah, if you sue them, they try to get you thrown out of Jewish life!

    #1293358

    Meno
    Participant

    Health,

    I have never heard someone speak out against Hatzolah as vehemently as you are.

    I’m very inclined to think the problem is you, not them.

    #1293389

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Health: At this point I agree with Meno. Your personal bias against Hatzaloh is clouding everything you say.

    #1293446

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Re: Hatzalah member on every block in Boro Park (on average). Should be fairly easy to calculate. How many active members of BP Hatzala are there today (surely such a number exists in their 501c3 filings). How many blocks are there in BP Hatzala coverage area. .

    #1293450

    Why is there so much name calling and arguing here?

    In case of C”V an emergency, Health can call EN if he would like…

    And everyone else may call Hatzolah…

    #1293482

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Through all the bickering and silly asides the main poiont has been lost.

    Health said it best
    “What you don’t understand, is that people need a choice – either Hatzolah, EN or EMS!”
    (just that line Im not saying I agree with anything else he has said, but hey kabel es haemes…)

    thats the bottom line. should people who (for whatever reason) want EN or not want Hatzalah, whther out of tnius concern, whther they are mad at hatzolah for not lettign them in, whther they tried to sue hatzolah or whatever, Should people have a choice ? (I mentioned this on another thread

    Nobody is suggesting everybody must call ENi if you dont want them call hatzaolah if someone does let them.

    #1293461

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Many of the criticisms against hatzalah at their founding by the nyc ems, are the very same ones being leveled against EN today in this forum.

    Of course, the accomplishments of a fledgling organization will pale in comparison to one that is 50 years old.

    An older flatbush hatzalah member (member since at least 1981 – I know since he responded to a call my family had to make) once stated that the original plan for hatzalah included a womens division. If i’m not mistaken, hatzala of new square has women who are members. i’m not advocating women become members of hatzalah, my point is, there seems to be a negative response by some simply because they are women.

    #1293827

    Meno
    Participant

    It’s true that people should have a choice, but they should have a clear picture of what their choices are.

    If the stories about EN are true, people should know about them so they can make an informed decision.

    #1294219

    Health
    Participant

    Meno -“I have never heard someone speak out against Hatzolah as vehemently as you are.
    I’m very inclined to think the problem is you, not them.”
    iacisrmma -“Health: At this point I agree with Meno. Your personal bias against Hatzaloh is clouding everything you say.”
    The two of you sound like some women – when you don’t like what​ you hear – you resort to personal attacks!
    I came to this thread, not to list all the cases​ which I know or heard about Hatzolah, but to defend EN.

    #1294231

    Meno
    Participant

    Personal attacks? Huh?

    And how are you defending EN by bashing Hatzolah?

    #1294237

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The two of you sound like some women – when you don’t like what​ you hear – you resort to personal attacks!”

    Even “the pot calling the kettle black” does not fit this situation.

    “I came to this thread, not to list all the cases​ which I know or heard about Hatzolah, but to defend EN.”

    How interesting. I don’t believe you have written one positive word anywhere in this thread. Let alone in defense of EN.

    #1294770

    Talk about a personal attack! I make the Brocha sheloh asani ishah.
    Defend EN all you want; just don’t bash Hatzaloh.

    #1294914

    Health
    Participant

    lowerourtuition11210 -“Talk about a personal attack! I make the Brocha sheloh asani ishah.”

    That I say everyday! That isn’t an attack on women. There are a lot of P’shatim. Get yourself​ a Frum education!

    “Defend EN all you want; just don’t bash Hatzaloh”

    Practice what you preach!
    This topic started with someone bashing Ezras Noshim.

    #1295065

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    dude, if the whole world likes hatzalah besides for you, maybe theyre right?

    #1295886

    Health
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy -“dude, if the whole world likes hatzalah besides for you, maybe theyre right?”

    Hey dude, how many of those that like them are professionals​ giving their professional opinion, not their PC opinion?!?

    #1295979

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    True, none besides the hatzalah members themselves. Btw you know it isnt a PC thing right? More of an experience slash word of mouth thing. I guess if you claim to be a medical professional and the only one thats unconvinced is you then so be it.

    #1295985

    Rebyossel
    Participant

    i dont know too much about EN but my wife works as a nurse delivering babies.
    Now take a scenario where Suri (fiction name) is in middle baking challahs and the dough is rising . The phone rings and EN dispatcher is requesting emergency for a women in labor. By the way Suri lives on 18th ave and 49 th street and the call is for 11th ave. and 57th street.
    Suri drops everything she does throws her sheitel on her head and out the door she runs.
    Of course Sanitation is doing her block and she has to wait 9-12 minutes to get out her block. Suri calls dispatcher and dispatcher in meantime is calling few other volunteers.
    By the time Suri gets to the home there is a Baby boy born and already in Hatzoloh ambulance being transported to Maimoneedes hospital.
    Dispatcher phones my wife Suri thanking her for her support and of course i went to Shloimys and bought fresh challas for shabbos because the dough grew so big and fell over the counter to a dirty floor.
    What i believe should of been done is…EN Dispatcher should work with Hatzoloh and announce a birth call on its system. Hatz should be notified to pick up Suri and have members on scene before Suri can arrive. Once Suri arrives she takes over and has Hatzoloh ready for any assistance she requests.
    If Suri feels she can not under take this emergency she turns reponsibility over to Hatzolah .
    Hatzoloh is the fastest and 100 % reliable.
    2nd altternative is call 911 and Fire dept. will be there in 4-5 minutes and let Johnny,Franky,Freddy do the delivery and wait 1/2 hour for ambulance to arrive and transport patient and baby to hospital.

    #1295986

    ahron
    Participant

    health – I am not sure what type of medical professional you are (podiatrist, dentist…) but it is obvious that you don’t know much about pre-hospital care it is very different than in a controlled environment. There are many times that it is appropriate to stabilize a patient before you move them. I am not sure about this case because like you, I wasn’t there but it is very plausible to think that the Hatzoloh providers on the scene felt they needed to stabilize the patient before moving her. Your arguments are all dripping with your disdain for an organization that is one of the biggest volunteer ambulance companies in the country. You have not written anything of substance you discredit any validity to your opinion by so blatantly spewing your vitriol. Because of its size Hatzoloh by definition will have some bad apples but it cannot be denied that many lives have been saved because of the dedication and selflessness of its volunteers. I am not here to bash EN but even if this story is not true it is not unrealistic to say this could happen. Any medical decision based on factors other than what is best medically is not Hishtadlus but foolishness. If a person skips over a Hatzoloh member because he is a man and calls someone less medically equipped, with less resources, with less experience, with less access to experienced providers, with no means of transport, just so they can get a woman, they are at best a fool and at worst being Oiver on Lo Samoid Al Dam Reiecha or depending on the outcome Retzicha. To create an organization that lends itself to that kind of Aveira is an Avlah. I hope the story is false but to call 911 is pure Rishus, when you have people that are as trained and more dedicated because they feel an Achrayus to their brother or sister within 2-3 minutes.
    Just to reiterate if you are a doctor you can not compare pre-hospital care to definitive care and you really can not even have an educated opinion about what should have been done on the scene, especially one you were not on.

    #1295992

    Health
    Participant

    RYossel -“What i believe should of been done is…EN Dispatcher should work with Hatzoloh and announce a birth call on its system. Hatz should be notified to pick up Suri and have members on scene before Suri can arrive. Once Suri arrives she takes over and has Hatzoloh ready for any assistance she requests.”

    That’s nice, but you’re forgetting one thing, EN wanted to work orginally​ with Hatzolah, but they refused!

    #1295995

    Health
    Participant

    Ahron -“You have not written anything of substance you discredit any validity to your opinion by so blatantly spewing your vitriol.”

    Because I’m not like you and the naive Jews, that worship Hatzolah. Every perceived problem like with EN, they post on the internet.
    I don’t know anything about EN, but I do know about Hatzolah! I like their videos that’s make believe.
    Oh btw, I went to many Rabbonim about Hatzolah, but so far they have done nothing!

    #1296009

    ahron
    Participant

    Health- Again you don’t argue facts you just try to insult us as naive and try to make us sound like we aren’t intelligent enough to understand that Hatzoloh is not perfect. You really just sound like a bitter person who wears his his emotions on his sleeves. You are letting your emotions blind logical thinking. NY Hatzoloh responds to over 70,000 calls a year and is equipped to treat all kinds of medical emergencies. They are governed by state protocols as are all NY ems systems. Some providers are good and a minority of them are bad. You have admitted that you were not accepted to Hatzoloh how can you be unbiased?

    #1296023

    Health
    Participant

    Ahron -“NY Hatzoloh responds to over 70,000 calls a year and is equipped to treat all kinds of medical emergencies. They are governed by state protocols as are all NY ems systems.”

    That’s nice! A lot of people like to play Russian Roulette. How many of those 70 grand are real emergencies?
    I admit they do save lives. Nowadays they train laymen to use AED’s, it doesn’t mean they are medical professionals when they regain a pulse.

    “Some providers are good and a minority of them are bad.”
    Change that to – most providers are bad and a minority are Ok!

    “You have admitted that you were not accepted to Hatzoloh how can you be unbiased?”

    Stop with your lying! I wrote – I didn’t blame them for not accepting me, because I was single at that time! I’m against them because of their lousey care.

    #1296038

    ahron
    Participant

    “That’s nice! A lot of people like to play Russian Roulette. How many of those 70 grand are real emergencies?
    I admit they do save lives. Nowadays they train laymen to use AED’s, it doesn’t mean they are medical professionals when they regain a pulse.”
    Wow the more you write the more obvious it is that you haven’t a clue as to what pre-hospital care is. How do you define real emergency. Yes some calls are not as serious as others but even on those calls Hatzoloh responders volunteer to take time out of their schedules to help. Do you know how many hours of training an emt needs to be certified or how many months a paramedic needs? How many lives saved do you think make it worth for Hatzoloh to exist? Do you understand the concept of being Nosei B’ol Chaveiro? The concept of being a Kafuy Tov? Apparently not because you condemn the thousands of hours a year that Hatzoloh volunteers dedicate out of love of their fellow Jew. You do say for the right price you have the ability to run the organization. You really don’t sound like you are that advanced in whatever “medical” field you are in.

    “Change that to – most providers are bad and a minority are Ok!”
    So you have seen the outcome of at least 35001 calls a year or is that also hatred? So all the 70,000 times they were called is because people just want lousy care, or are you in the Miut Shebmiuta who think this way?

    “Stop with your lying! I wrote – I didn’t blame them for not accepting me, because I was single at that time! I’m against them because of their lousey care.”
    Who is being disingenuous now? You don’t have to say you are bitter your tone screams it. Lousy care? You can’t believe that as a general Klal or maybe again you don’t but your hatred/bitterness blinds you to reality.
    Interesting how you believe the whole organization is bad because you saw .0001% of their calls and in your professional opinion whatever profession that is they were lousy. When it comes to EN and you read about two calls you protect them tooth and nail even though that would be a much larger percentage of lousy calls.
    I think you should be humble when talking about Herschel Weber are you responsible for even a fraction of the amount of lives he has saved?

    #1296077

    Health: If you look at my posts in this thread I never once wrote anything against EN! All I have done was try to defend Hatzaloh against your biased opinions.

    You wrote: That I say everyday! That isn’t an attack on women. There are a lot of P’shatim. Get yourself​ a Frum education!

    Where in the world did I say that making the brocho Sheloh asani ishah is an attack on woman? You stated in post 1294219 “The two of you sound like some women”. I was directly replying that I am a man, not a woman, so and therefore say the brocho sheloh asani ishah. And I have a pretty good frum education as well as a secular one.

    #1296221

    Health
    Participant

    Ahron -“How do you define real emergency”
    Makes a difference between life and death!

    ” You do say for the right price you have the ability to run the organization”
    Exactly, for example, I would institute​ personal responsibility. The way it is now, anyone with a complaint, Hatzolah white washes it! They don’t really investigate it and/or they do nothing about it.

    “Interesting how you believe the whole organization is bad because you saw .0001% of their calls and in your professional opinion whatever profession that is they were lousy.”

    After viewing them for many years, you see how they are! There is such a thing as a medical mind.
    I have it and you see by their actions that a lot of them don’t! I doubt that this applies to every single one, but there has to be a system that deals with the incompetent ones!

    #1326030

    EMS911
    Participant

    I know it’s been a while since someone last commented on this thread, but I feel I must set the record straight about NYC EMS and hatzolah. (I work 911, not hatzolah). To start: @health you obviously have no knowledge of how the dispatch system works of either hatzolah or the 911 system. The 911 system has something called call takers (who answer the phone, take the info) and input that info onto the call board. The dispatcher from there dispatches the units as needed. Hatzolah has two EMTs who are both trained (yes in house, however still trained to some degree in both call taking and dispatching.
    Second @health according to your statement that most of hatzolah are lousy you by default are saying the 911 system is lousy too. I have plenty of friends who work 911 and volunteer in hatzolah.
    What kind of HCP are you? CNA, PCT, LPN? Clean up at the tear entrance!

    #1326496

    Health
    Participant

    EMS911 -“Hatzolah has two EMTs who are both trained (yes in house, however still trained to some degree in both call taking and dispatching.”

    OR Should I say Mr. Hatzolah or Hatzolah wannabe – You just came here because the truth bothers you!
    Hatzolah doesn’t have EMD’s!
    I have no idea about NYC EMS Dispatching.

    “according to your statement that most of hatzolah are lousy you by default are saying the 911 system is lousy too.”

    That’s possible.
    But at least there is options with EMS, like suing.
    With Hatzolah, if you go to the authorities – they go to Rabbonim and label you a Moiser.
    Also with EMS, they are respectful to me, when I’m on the scene.
    Hatzolah only listens to themselves, no matter what the outcome!

    #1326565

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Is it a sport among medical “professionals” to bash any and all other medical “professionals”? If I bash every lawyer and jurist in my path, can I fool people into thinking that I’m a Supreme Court Justice?

    #1327146

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Is it a sport among medical “professionals” to bash any and all other medical “professionals”?”

    No.

    #1327191

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Yes, your honor.

    #1328824

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Health; help me out here.
    I am new to this board
    Here is what I was able to make out

    You feel that there is an intrinsic value in ”choice” no matter how poor that choice may be

    Having put all that to record here are my two questions
    1- what is the issue with hatzolah? No names just issues
    2- don’t we have plenty of choice without ezras nashim?
    You could call
    Nyc ems
    Cablevision
    311
    Citicards
    Chase credit cards
    Shoprite
    Goldberg’s supermarket
    1800weather
    And the list goes on
    These may be very poor choices but from your posts it is clear You are only looking to make sure there is choice

    edited – by ‘new’did you mean screen name? 

    #1328891

    EMS911
    Participant

    Besides all you fall back on is they are not EMDs but then you say you have no clue how the dispatch works. All you are doing is bashing hatzolah.
    If you want some real reasons to bash there are plenty but be honest.

    #1328865

    EMS911
    Participant

    Health- according to what your saying every call taker should not only be an EMT they should be at the very least a CLI (that’s an EMT instructor for those that don’t know). How can someone explain what to do when they technically can’t do it themselves?
    I’m not part of hatzolah I’m single nor do I want to be, I like my job and saving people but not enough to do it for free.
    Avram in MD- absolutely not however if someone says to me on a scene “I’m a doctor” I say what kind of doctor and what’s your license number otherwise get off my scene. (For all practical purposes I would trust EMTs/paramedics faster than the docs on scene because that’s the training we do while doctors are in a more controlled environment.)

    #1329037

    bk613
    Participant

    I’m pretty sure even if a dermatologist would show up on scene of a major trauma incident he/she can demand control of the scene. Denying any MD/DO authority of a scene is a quick way to have your certification revoked.
    I don’t know what the law is regarding other healthcare professionals (PA,NP,DPM, etc)

    #1329050

    Health
    Participant

    EMS 911 -” but then you say you have no clue how the dispatch works”
    ” according to what your saying every call taker should not only be an EMT they should be at the very least a CLI (that’s an EMT instructor for those that don’t know)”

    I was saying IDK how NYC dispatch works, not other systems.
    A lot of dispatching in this country are just EMD’s, nothing else, not EMT’s, not EMT instructors.

    #1330344

    EMS911
    Participant

    Bk613- actually that statement is false. According to the protocol you have to call telemetry (medical control) with that doctors name and license number if they give permission then he can stay otherwise you tell him to kindly leave the scene.
    Remember EMTs and paramedics are used to improvising with the equipment we have. Most doctors are used to having more equipment available, and it being in a controlled environment.

    #1330347

    EMS911
    Participant

    Health- you realize what you are saying doesn’t make sense. According to you EMDs are what’s needed, but they have no medical knowledge to tell a person what to do before EMS arrive. Basically EMDs are glorified telemarketers.

    #1330465

    Health
    Participant

    EMS911 -“Health- you realize what you are saying doesn’t make sense. According to you EMDs are what’s needed, but they have no medical knowledge to tell a person what to do before EMS arrive. Basically EMDs are glorified telemarketers.”

    LOL. I’m sorry your post cracks me up. You claim to be an EMT, so crack open your book – it explains what an EMD is!

    #1330532

    PosterGirl
    Participant

    Health, I bet you just looked up EMD on Wikipedia.

    #1330735

    Health
    Participant

    PosterGirl -“Health, I bet you just looked up EMD on Wikipedia”

    LOL. I’m actually a multi-pronged medical professional!
    I started being in the medical profession in the 80’s – hence my SN – Health.

    #1330749

    2scents
    Participant

    Any other credentials other than your user name?

    #1330820

    Health
    Participant

    2scents -“Any other credentials other than your user name?”

    LOL. Why are you on the net?
    Go back to try on working on Hatzolah in Monsey.
    There were a lot of comments on that Editorial.
    If you want my help – it will cost a pretty penny!

    #1330968

    2scents
    Participant

    Health, what is so funny? You have no clue who I am or what I do for a living. This has never been about me, yet it has always been about you. You have numerous times repeated that you are a ‘medical professional’ being that you present yourself as someone of medical authority why not disclose what credentials you have?

    No one wants your help, not for pay or for free. You have displayed nothing but your silliness. .

    I don’t even know why I am responding to you..

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