What percentage of off the derech kids/teens/adults return to Yiddishkeit?

Rejecting a kid from living in your home is the equivalent of disowning them. It is not terribly meaningful what the intent of the parent is. That language to the child is clear and unmistakable – rejection. And these extreme rejections are so painful that reconciliation is close to impossible. If we are recognizing the sanctity of the parental relationship as a critical element when the child decides to return, then we must admit that this rejection all but makes that impossible.

I have never challenged Torah. But the metziyus must be ascertained so that we know which halachos to apply. The nearly unanimous opinion of Gedolei Yisroel has been made clear. And the authors from KJ have an agenda to challenge that. I will not spend a moment to study them, why they take this approach, etc. We are not dealing with a huge controversy among the Gedolim. They have been clear.

The Chazon Ish ZT”L made a clear statement in his generation, some 60 years ago. He stated that the gemora that describes שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת is no longer applicable. Today, he said, we must me mekarev with the left as well. The Chazon Ish cannot be accused of modifying halacha to suit his opinions or agendas. He was clearly explaining that the outcome mattered to the application of the halacha. His insight is not only amazing, but it is prophetic. Today’s generation so clearly finds the דוחה approach provocative and rejecting, clearly not the agenda of the Torah. Not because these youngsters are “right”, but because they are seriously impaired.

As far as being “deputized” to fulfill Hashem’s vengeance, I have great trouble accepting this message. There are way too many statements throughout תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה that say otherwise.

Little that I know, many statements- not true.
As you can not accuse the Chazon Ish, you can’t accuse the Satmar Dayanim either.

mdd1Participant
Takes2…, ridiculous! Look in seifer “Chofetz Chaim “ in the first couple of chapters.
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Is that all you have to say to dispute me, is to look at the chofetz chaim?
Goes to show your maturity level. The chofetz never gave you the go ahead to dpolice OTD people. So stop spewing meaningless sentences of nothing!
If you think the chofetz chaim says something you think i should know then quote it by verse / chapter untill then dont bother .

Takes2-2tango,

Maybe you should learn to read before you spew your hatred towards the OTD world.

I was addressing your post. Not some “OTD world.” And I spewed no hatred, towards you or anyone else. I made an effort to write my post in a respectful manner. You have not afforded me the same courtesy.

I never ever said that hashem doesnt punidh sinners.

You asked rhetorically if we get punished when we sin, and used that as a basis for an argument that we don’t have the right to punish people for sins when Hashem doesn’t (always) punish us. If that wasn’t your point, I apologize, and ask if you could restate it more directly.

Fot you as a human being you have no right to decide whether a person is or is not betraying hashem. Hashem is the only one to know what is in a person head and heart. not you, not a father and not moshe rabenu .

I agree that we cannot know what is in someone else’s heart. However, as we read in Parshas Nitzavim: וְהַנִּגְלֹ֞ת ֹלָֹ֤נוֹּ ֹוֹּלְֹבָֹנֵֹ֨יֹנֹוּ֨ עַד־עוֹלָ֔ם לַֽעֲשׂ֕וֹת אֶת־כָּל־דִּבְרֵ֖י הַתּוֹרָ֥ה הַזֹּֽאת

That said, if you’ve read all of my posts, you’ll find that I never suggested that we should punish a child who is off the derech. The only thing I have said is that parents have a right to set rules and expectations for what goes on in their house. And that they should do so lovingly and carefully.

Until then leave it up to hashem and stop judging people especially people who dress , talk and differently then u. Its people like you who cause kids to off.

That’s a whole lot of unfounded assumptions about me. It is your finger that is pointed in self-righteous judgement of others, not mine.

JJ2020:

You wrote: “There is a difference between now allowing behavior in your home and rejecting your children. You may not be able to stop.them from doing it when they leave the house but not in your mikdash miat.”

I join you in wishing to establish proper boundaries in the home. Helivai we could manage this. If a parent can set a boundary, it should certainly be done. No one would want their son in a t-shirt and shorts or a girl dressed inappropriately sitting at the Shabbos table. They do need to be taught decorum and respect for the home. And these kids we are addressing in this discussion actually know better. And it is also fact that we have zero control over our children when they step out the door. No arguments so far. The question is how do we set boundaries? How do children accept the request? Do they see this as a boundary, or a rule intended to challenge them? Is this just another way of telling them that we don’t want them? Is it a provocation that will result only in their digging their heels in deeper? Is this a form of תוכחה that halacha specifically tells us not to do because it is ineffective?

Check out the gemora ערכין דף טז ע”ב. Giving rebuke is a great mitzvah. But the greatest Tana’im recognized that not every situation is amenable to this being done. If it produces a non-positive result, it is a greater problem than had the situation been left alone.

Our מקדש מעט will not be fashioned by the dictating of rules when a child begins acting out. It would have been established by the home representing the most beautiful of values in the time years until now. Maybe the failure of the past is a contributing factor for this child seeking his gratification from outside sources that are inconsistent with the Torah ideals we want. Rules? Is that all we need to?

Something tells me joseph the troller resides in lakewood nj.

The little I know,

I join you in wishing to establish proper boundaries in the home. Helivai we could manage this.

What do you mean by halevai? If parents are unable to establish proper boundaries in the home, that is an unhealthy and dangerous situation. If parents allowed illegal drugs or underage drinking into their home due to a lack of boundaries, they could find themselves in legal jeopardy. More apropos to our discussion of rebellion against Yiddishkeit, Is it ok for an Orthodox home’s kitchen to be made unkosher because a child is “acting out”?

No one would want their son in a t-shirt and shorts or a girl dressed inappropriately sitting at the Shabbos table.

For cases like these, a discussion among the parents, children, rav, and perhaps a family counselor would be a good idea. Parents cannot pick every single battle, nor would that be a healthy dynamic for anyone. But the home is not a democracy, everyone’s needs are important, and the parents have the responsibility of setting up the boundaries and expectations. Should children be involved in those discussions and their input respected and considered? Absolutely. Should they expect to get everything they want all the time? No.

The question is how do we set boundaries? How do children accept the request? Do they see this as a boundary, or a rule intended to challenge them? Is this just another way of telling them that we don’t want them? Is it a provocation that will result only in their digging their heels in deeper? Is this a form of תוכחה that halacha specifically tells us not to do because it is ineffective?

Boundary setting and tochacha are very different things. If a parent conflates the two, he needs a parenting course. If a child conflates the two, he needs counseling and/or a reality check.

Our מקדש מעט will not be fashioned by the dictating of rules when a child begins acting out.

Dictating is only one way to set boundaries, and probably not the best way in most situations.

Rules? Is that all we need to?

Teenager logic. Just because one discussion is about rules does not mean that everything is about rules.

There is a difference between accepting your child as a person and tolerating unacceptable behavior.

Parents do have the right to make rules and regualtions in the house, but a smart parent knows when to give in and when to give the kid some freedom.

For example there is a story in the Faranak Margolese book, where a teenager refused to wear a hat and the father insisted he wear a hat. needless to say it became a struggle between the 2 and while the father won the battle, he lost the war

I agree 100%. I try not to be judgemental of other families, however, so I shy away from saying that so-and-so an issue (e.g., wearing a hat) is objectively unreasonable. Another family may think you are unreasonable for not letting your kid fry up bacon in your pan.

Have a wonderful Shabbos!
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Your statement about other people thinking its unreasonable to not allow your kid fry up bacon is a bit extreme. Personally i can tell u that its the small and almost meaningless thing that tick a boy or girl off, such as making a big deal about hair length , black hat / no hat, dark clothing vs light clothing,s tandard size yamulka vs smaller. wearing rabaynu tam tfillin vs not wearing them. When i say mundane i mean in the over all picture its mundane on the large chance of losing your child totally. Use your brains. God gave u them for a good reason. These are for the most part where children start to get frustrated from thier parents in yiddishkiet. It may not be obvious but it does eventually. Just like every yid has a pintelle yid in him/her so to that pintelle yid can become even smaller from such mundane things as i mentioned earlier. Also many if not most people who are frum by rote confuse halacha with chumra, mesora/ minhogim / vs home made yiddishkiet. First stick to the hardcore halachos and then slow wean onto chumris.
Concentrating on chumros with out doing the halachos properly is a recipe for boys and girls going otd. Same applies to grown adults.

TLIK, there is no such a status in these Halochos as a choleh. If someone is Halochically insane (a shoteh), then he is patur. If not, he is a mumar. There can be a mumar with a limud zechus on him – fine, but he is still a mumar. I am not telling you what to do, I am just explaining to you such a person’s Halochic status.

Generally you catch more flies with Honey than with vinegar. There is no guarantee that being more tolerant will be more successful than being tough. However if someone hates shabbos, making it more miserable for them likely wont work

Joseph, TLIK is a lady — it is clear from the way she writes.

Joseph, mdd1, Et al

The discussion here seems to have deteriorated into a personal attack. In reality, my presence here is anonymous, being behind a screen name. I haven’t a care what anyone here thinks of me as a person, whether I qualify as a talmid chochom or not. My Torah and midos will be judged by Hashem, whose ultimate judgment matters. Go ahead and believe what you wish about TLIK. I am not invested in a popularity contest. We will all sleep by night and work by day. I do hope you all enjoy Avodas Hashem, bringing yourselves and others closer to HKB”H.

Next, for those who wonder about my gender, I am a male, married to a great woman. We have a great family B”H. I studied in mainstream yeshivas, and I have maintained a close relationship with several members of the hanhala of my alma mater. I am not sure what my style of writing says about my gender. I do have a college degree, and have written and published a bit.

It bears repeating that OTD kids who misbehave at home are causing the family, parents and sibs, great discomfort. No one suggests to be pleased with that. No one says a home cannot have rules or boundaries. There are two questions here, and I will support my positions. Is this child a choleh? Should this child be rejected from the home. I stated clearly for question #1 – yes, for question #2 – no.

Now for direct quotes from the “anonymous” Gedolim. Some quotes are translated and paraphrased, but I offer clear and precise references. I refer readers to a sefer published in E”Y in תש”ע called פרי הנושר. There are also quite a few seforim on the subject of chinuch that address our topic.

Here are some samples, with citations:

• Rav Tzadok Hacohen of Lublin ZT”L writes in the Pri Tzaddik concerning the “Ben Rosho” that we recite on Pesach at the Seder. He says, אלו היה שם לא היה נגאל to mean that at that juncture of history such a person would not have been merited to be miraculously saved. But once the Jews were liberated and left Mitzrayim and we were born as a Jewish nation, from then on, no matter how awful his conduct, he can never be detached from his Jewishness. This is true even for someone whose actions have been abominable. That is, in fact, why the Hagadah prefaces these statements with “ברוך הוא” because only Hashem can guarantee that no Jew will be spiritually lost.
• The Nesivos Shalom states in his work on chinuch that when one’s child begins acting out committing issurim, the obligation is “to control oneself, not the child, to shower the child with additional love, not rejection.”
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (recording) stated that only being mekarev is appropriate for even those committing the most serious aveiros. We are to look away from the aveiros and embrace the children.
• Rav Gershon Edelshtein shlit”a (recording of Rav Shmuel Neiman shlit”a a dayan in Monsey quoting Rav Edelshtein) stated regarding a young girl who was OTD who was buying clothing that was not tznius appropriate that the parents should provide her the money, because that was where she was holding, and to preserve the relationship. Definitely not to throw her out. Rav Neiman also quoted numerous Gedolim that these children today are cholim, not baalei aveiro.
• Rav Shteinman ZT”L (A lengthy quote, translated) was asked by a parent who stated that he would rather his child die then to be OTD. Rav Shteinman’s response: “These people think that they are doing a tremendous Mitzvah by wanting to sacrifice their child just like Avraham Avinu did by ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! But that is not the case! Avraham was asked to sacrifice his BELOVED child whom he loved more than anything in the world! If a parent is ready to sacrifice a child that he loves so much, a child that gives them great honor and is a tremendous nachass to the family, that is considered a great thing and is truly a sacrifice like ‘Akeidas Yitzchak’! However, if the parents are disgusted with the son because he is not going on the right path and he is a great embarrassment to the family, and that is why the parents are ok with him dying, that is not something to be proud of! That is simply wanting to MURDER a Jewish child because of their own selfish motives due to their own honor! This is not the proper way to talk about a child! On the contrary! The child must be made to BELIEVE that his parents truly LOVE HIM and that it hurts them to see their BELOVED child lose out on a life of real happiness! If this understanding – that his parents truly LOVE HIM – enters into the child’s essence and he really believes that they really love him now: THEN THE CHILD CAN CERTAINLY RETURN!!! It is true that it is a really difficult job, but that is the role of being a parent! It is up to you to daven, to ask advice and to try to do everything possible to HELP the child – not wish him DEAD!”
• Rav Dov Brezak shlit”a writes in his book “Chinuch in Turbulent Times” (p. 387) “Our spiritual leaders have tught us how careful we must be with our children’s precious souls. Contemporary giants no longer with us, including the Chofetz Chaim, the Chazon Ish, R’ Elyah Lopian, R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, R’ Eliezer Menachem Man Shach, R’ Avrohom Pam, and R’ Avraham Chaim Brim, and those still with us, including R’ Shlomo Wolbe and R’ Michel Yehudah Lefkowitz, all say we must educate our children with love, not with harshness.”
• Rav Wolbe once came to the Chazon Ish regarding a difficult child in his yeshiva. The Chazon Ish told him that a yeshivah can be compared to a hospital; those that come there are not well and need our help. It is our job to make them better. (In Rav Brezak’s book, p. 412-413)
• Rav Ovadia Yosef ZT”L writes in his sefer Maadanei Melech (on Chinuch Yelodim) regarding expelling a talmid from yeshiva for committing serious aveiros. He quotes אין לך דבר העומד בפני התשובה. This perek is lengthy, and anyone interested in his extensive review of the subject should consult that sefer. He repeated the story from the Chofetz Chaim regarding a shiur he presented to an audience of Roshei Yeshivos. To one of them, he refused to respond, and turned his back on him. This was shocking to others who witnessed this. The Chofetz Chaim asked them if they heard of Leon Trotzky, one of the leaders of Communism. He was orphaned at an early age, and his mother sent him to the yeshiva of this particular Rosh Yeshiva. This lad was uncontrollable, and discipline did not help. Finally, he was expelled from the yeshiva. The mother’s pleas were futile. The Chofetz Chaim said that if he would have been mekarev this man, he could have grown into a great talmid chochom. Now he became a terrible hater, and murdered thousands of Yidden.

Plenty more, which I can supply in another comment.

Continuing with additional references.

• Rav Shach ZT”L was approached by a father whose son was expelled from a yeshiva. The Rosh Hayeshiva felt that this bochur would ruin others. The father cried to Rav Shach, but he refused to intervene. If the yeshiva needs to put the bochur out, that’s what needs to be. After this father left, Rav Shach summoned his gabbai. He stated that what he told the father was truth, but that the matter did not stop there. That was for the yeshiva. But what will be with this bochur? He cannot be sent to the street where he will deteriorate further. Rav Shach asked to be connected to another Rosh Yeshiva, and finally established the contact to place the bochur. He did not relax until that placement was completed. Expulsion may be necessary, but the child cannot be abandoned. (Mesoras Hachinuch, p. 87)
• Rav Gamliel Rabinovich shlit”a (Tiv Hachinuch p. 306) writes about the OTD child. “Therefore, when we approach this bochur, we first ask them how they are, and continue to speak to them ina friendly way to establish a connection. Everyone that has an inherent love for HKB”H needs to experience pain over those people that do not serve Hashem, and we must therefore invest our energy to be mekarev them to Hashem. The way to accomplish this is to not look at them askance, and not to concentrate on their faults and their inappropriate behavior. But the contrary, we must look and emphasize their assets, the mitzvos and good deeds they have done until now, as they have certainly accumulated many millions of mitzvos, D’Oraysa and D’Rabbonon as well as minhagim. And even if now they are not acting properly, the Chachomim tell us (Chagiga 27a) that HKB”H loves even the sinners. When we increase our love for them, they will recioprocate their love for us, and we can thus restore them to a closeness to HKB”H. It is clear to any Bar Daas that these bochurim need much kiruv and love, as even their physical situation is not favorable to them. And even if they appear to be physically happy, that is a façade. Being mekarev a single neshomoh is a zechus for generations, hundreds and thousands of potential Yidden who will fulfill mitzvos. (This was translated and adapted somewhat. The interested reader is encouraged to study this in the original, and the ensuing pages of the sefer.)

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Also, TLIK, to come out with a new Halochic status of “chole regashi” is a tremendous chiddush. This category does not exist in the classical sourses.

ZD, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t assume you’ve read the sefer.

Joseph,
“Maybe because people don’t end up murdered or robbed?”

Robbing or stabbing Hashem is not as bad as doing it to a human?”

As usual your comparison is really off.
What is done to Hashem is HASHEMS business – You are not the G-Ds Apitropos. What is done to society – is part of societies concern. Simple enough?

Joseph:

You wrote: “Gaon, Halacha empowers us (meaning Beis Din bzman hazeh) to enforce bein adam lmakom Halachas, even via corporal punishment if necessary.”

Can you provide a reference please? Are you insinuating that the BD has the authority to reject a Baal Teshuvah (which is not the halacha that HKB”H follows)? Can BD punish someone who is mechalel Shabbos? Which BD, and how do they exercise that authority?

Mdd,
“Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).”

There are many diff pshatim regarding this Rambam. One that I recall is, it only pertains to the 13 Ikrim and not anything else. Also, the Chazon ISH clearly differentiates nowadays as all have a Tinuk Sh’nishbu status .

In any case, in my opinion, as much as the two Dyanim can paskin other areas – a major Shayla like this – being that there is no clear psak and, Rambam’s as usual are complex with diff pshatim – a Halachik decision like this is above their head and should be consulted with major Gadolei Hador. Let it be submitted to the Eda Hacredis, Rav Sternbuch, etc. let them set up a meeting with all facts and experts on the table and then decide.

Perhaps there is a side that “Mutav ShyeChalel Shabbos Achod – shlo Yechalel Harbei etc. or goes into the issue of Chet beshvil Sheyzakeh etc. If the facts show that if you are mekarev them they will, and do come back then it certainly goes within the status of: you are permitted to be Mechalel Shabbos to save someone from Shmad. Certainly you can say that the above Rambam is permitted (which is not even a clear Issur DeRabanon i.e. associating with Avrayanim).

Many of these kids are emotionally disturbed and have issues in all areas of life as well, not only Yidishkeit. So yes, they are somewhat Cholei Nefesh” and thus a diff status as the above Rambam.

“if necessary” exactly my point, Joseph.

Therefore, your comparison to murder is off. Being that Bes Din seems to see that there is no necessary need to enact any of the above. I.e. it will NOT help anyone or anything regarding Yehadus, hence there is no banishing in place. The ones that are out have their own society and the ones that are in are not effected.

TLIK: All your questions are answered in Shulchan Aruch and Rambam. A beis din today is empowered to enforce all that. Obviously there’s no death penalty enforced today but otherwise it is in full force and beis din can substitute lesser punishments.

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