What percentage of off the derech kids/teens/adults return to Yiddishkeit?

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  • #1456677

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    Your comment is neither accurate nor responsible. I thought your intellect was above that.

    Joseph:

    Sorry, but I am in the know on this. I stated fact, not some bizarre idea/accusation.

    #1456682

    Askarav
    Participant

    Serious dilemmas such as this is a reason why one should always have a close shayches with a Rov/Da’as Torah.

    The most important thing is to ALWAYS show your love and respect for the child. Don’t ever kick the child out of the house except in the most severe cases which you should not decide yourself.

    The only time you should break off contact (never completely) with a child is if they intermarry (with a proper civil wedding). However even in such cases you should still ask.

    #1456871

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many times the parents feel intimidated by the Rebbe and the School and they feel if they speak out (with just cause) , It is not the bad Rebbe or Bad Menahal who will pay the price, but rather they will suffer

    #1456936

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    “Your comment is neither accurate nor responsible.”

    Which comment are you referring to?

    “I thought your intellect was above that.”

    Instead of an unproductive veiled insult, why don’t you explain how whatever comment I made was inaccurate or irresponsible? I’m a bit surprised to see this type of response from someone preaching love and infinite tolerance.

    “Sorry, but I am in the know on this. I stated fact, not some bizarre idea/accusation.”

    Joseph is trolling, but your response is an appeal to authority fallacy. This is the anonymous Internet, and you have not been crowned king.

    #1457248

    Me12345
    Participant

    Zahavsdad

    “Many times the parents feel intimidated by the Rebbe and the School and they feel if they speak out (with just cause) , It is not the bad Rebbe or Bad Menahal who will pay the price, but rather they will suffer” – this is all part of parenting and it’s when choosing a school, being able to work with the hanhala is on the top of the list

    #1457255

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The real problem here is this discussion is being made in a theory. We can say whatever we want for theorictical cases, but in actual cases we might feel or behave differently

    #1457103

    Joseph
    Participant

    TLIK: In fact you have stated some bizarre ideas and generic accusations against the entire Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov system. As much as you think you know, I know quite a bit more.

    #1457332

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    Your discussion of the two brothers was neither rational nor stable. It was pure sarcasm. That is one way of making a point when there is not one to make. Much of your commenting has been rational, whether I agreed with you or not. This was frankly bizarre. When I address the tolerance of the wayward kid, I never insinuated that we should withdraw support from a good kid for the OTD one. Your insinuation was a bizarre extension of my message. i would think you understood that.

    Joseph:

    I stand by my statements. I have had the occasion (not exactly occasional) to speak with mechanchim of all groups, persuasions, and affiliations. While most deny engaging in public shaming, nearly all justify it as an accepted, Torah compliant form of discipline. I have needed to confront rebbeim about this often. It was once quite dramatic, with extremely awful things being said. One rebbe I knew would punish a talmid by sending him to every other classroom in the building, standing before these other classes, and telling everyone that he was a bad boy. The laughter was horribly biting and painful. Thankfully, that rebbe has not been allowed in a classroom for many years now. Today’s shaming is less dramatic, but there is plenty. I can cite examples, and many of these involve multiple incidents, not just one. One rebbe was upset that a talmid returned late from recess (he had gone to the bathroom). The rebbe took him around to other classes, and told everyone to stop being friends with this boy, as he was a bad influence. That boy dropped out of yeshiva completely, with erroneous messages about his behavior history preceding him to every attempt to learn elsewhere. I know many kids who were taken out of a class with the announcement that the parents had defaulted on their tuition payments. The sending home issue is worth debating, and I defer on that. But the public forum for this is inexcusable. These were events that repeated many, many times, with different details. Sorry, Joseph, but the improvements in chinuch that richly deserve praise have only begun. There is a long way to go.

    #1457356

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The shaming has gone on for a long time. In the 5thgrade ( 1960 ) i told my Rebbe that i had davened half of shachris with full kavanah, seeking chizuk. What happened instead was that he brought me to the front of the class and publicly ridiculed me for thinking i had accomplished anything. From then on i went thru the motions. In high school, boys asked halachic questions only to be yelled at, called schutzpanick and worse. By the time freshman year ended they stopped asking and caring by graduation were no longer frum.
    Fast forward 35 years; my 7 year old great nephew wasbeing beaten up by his rebbe because he was dozing off at the end of a very long day. He began to hate learning because he associated it with the beatings. The beatings stopped when my neice told the rosh yeshiva that she would go to the precinct and swear out a complaint and have the rebbe arrested and sue the rosh yeshiva.

    #1457432

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your discussion of the two brothers was neither rational nor stable. It was pure sarcasm.

    No, it was a dramatized version of a more subtle but real dynamic.

    #1457540

    GAON
    Participant

    “my 7 year old great nephew wa sbeing beaten up by his rebbe because he was dozing off at the end of a very long day”

    LC, This I believe is very rare. Perhaps in some backward ultra place, but I don’t think this happens anywhere in mainstream Charedi world.

    #1457566

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unfortuantly Corporal punishment is still done in many charedi yeshivas and Im not even sure its legal in NY anymore under any circumstances

    #1457584

    Joseph
    Participant

    Corporal punishment is legal in NY private schools.

    Dovid HaMelech in Tehilim and the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch pasken that corporal punishment must be an option.

    #1457589

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    “Your discussion of the two brothers was neither rational nor stable.”

    You really don’t have a good response for how to handle the issue my example brought up, do you? Otherwise, you would discuss it rationally and without so much ad hominem. I did employ some satire in making the point, but the point is 100% valid and reasonable, and if you want people to accept or consider your “twisted” philosophy, it would do you well to address it.

    “That is one way of making a point when there is not one to make.”

    You may wish there is not a point, but there is – and it is to the peril of your “twisted” philosophy to not address it.

    “Much of your commenting has been rational, whether I agreed with you or not.”

    This is written like a compliment, but it is nothing but a bullying technique. I do not fear losing your supposed respect for my intellect, so it won’t work. The only thing you have shown is that your philosophy lacks resilience to a fairly basic question.

    “When I address the tolerance of the wayward kid, I never insinuated that we should withdraw support from a good kid for the OTD one. Your insinuation was a bizarre extension of my message.”

    Finally ,an actual response.

    Exhibit A: “concentration of chinuch efforts on the child who is acting out, even if that means to scatter the other children to live with other family and friends”

    Exhibit B: “Rav Elyoshiv told a mother to move her other 8 children out of the home to concentrate on the one who was acting out”

    Exhibit C: “Whatever amount of money you usually give your kids – give this child DOUBLE!”

    Exhibit D: “Send all of the other children out of the house and give THIS CHILD ALL of your attention!”

    C and D are attributed to the Divrei Yoel without sourcing and without context. Which makes them just as dangerous as referencing Yitzchak and Yishmael or Yakov and Eisav to justify throwing a child out of the house. My objection follows directly from statements such as these, and they need to be addressed if you want to honestly present your philosophy.

    #1457612

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Corporal punishment in schools is ILLEGAL in NY

    New York’s Broad Ban
    As part its education regulations, New York prohibits the use of corporal punishment in a wide range of schools, including:

    all state-operated or state-supported schools
    charter schools
    approved private schools
    approved preschool programs
    approved out-of-state day schools and residential schools, and
    registered nonpublic nursery and K-12 schools.
    (N.Y. Comp. Codes Rules & Regs., tit. 8, § 19.5(a)(1).)

    #1457627

    Joseph
    Participant

    19 States allow corporal punishment in public and private schools. NY public school regulations prohibit it but private schools are permitted.

    #1457634

    GAON
    Participant

    Avram,
    “OUR DISCUSSION OF THE TWO BROTHERS WAS NEITHER RATIONAL NOR STABLE.”
    “but the point is 100% valid and reasonable, and if you want people to accept or consider your “twisted” philosophy, it would do you well to address it.”

    Agreed, it definitely hit a good point, and he might be correct in a way. As in theory it could occur and the answer might very well be, that the good kid will have to forfeit his $20 breakfast. Of course it all depends on the “good kid” as well. i.e. if the fact that he didn’t get his breakfast is by no way effecting anything in the long run, then unfortunately, he will have to sacrifice some of his comforts to save his emotionally disturbed brother.

    Let’s look at it from a diff approach, if the “bad brother” would be ‘physically’ ill and needs extra care etc. and the well brother needs the exact above scenario – is the above excuse legit? No doubt, you can absolutely tell him: “sorry your breakfast money went toward your brother’s meds etc”.

    Nevertheless, we of course identify easily with physical cases than emotional, but in theory there might be no diff.

    Now of course each and every case is different and needs to be guided and diagnosed properly, if that is indeed the case of the “bad” kid.

    #1457645

    GAON
    Participant

    “Unfortuantly Corporal punishment is still done in many charedi yeshivas”

    My point was specifically regarding the above case of getting “beaten up” by his rebbe because he was “dozing off at the end of a very long day”.

    While I agree Corporal punishment is used, and is most likely only used for kids who are out of control, but I doubt “beating up” is used nowadays toward a kid “dozing off”. It is one thing if a rebbi gives a kid a “potch” or two for misbehaving and disrupting the entire class etc, but “beating up” for the lack of learning is unheard of these days.

    #1457677

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    GAON,

    “Of course it all depends on the “good kid” as well. i.e. if the fact that he didn’t get his breakfast is by no way effecting anything in the long run”

    Absent having prophecy, there is no way for anyone to know this.

    “if the “bad brother” would be ‘physically’ ill and needs extra care etc. and the well brother needs the exact above scenario – is the above excuse legit? No doubt, you can absolutely tell him: “sorry your breakfast money went toward your brother’s meds etc”.”

    I would never tell a child that I cannot provide something for him because of his brother’s medical condition. And if you respond that I can do the same by the OTD brother’s support, au contraire. Disparities in material support and attention given among siblings is way more concrete and apparent to children than medical support stressing an entire family’s resources. And the siblings can see (and be reminded) that the medical condition was not the sick child’s choice to have, and the suffering R”L is more visible. Even if the OTD child faced nisayonos in his life or has a personality disorder of some sort, he is in control of his choices.

    Furthermore, I dispute the notion that unconditional support for a child’s choices (note I did not say unconditional love) is ever an advisable course of action. I have never encountered a parenting philosophy that presents that as a good idea, outside of this “twisted” parenting as presented in this thread.

    “Now of course each and every case is different and needs to be guided and diagnosed properly, if that is indeed the case of the “bad” kid.”

    I agree.

    #1457695

    Phil
    Participant

    “19 States allow corporal punishment in public and private schools. NY public school regulations prohibit it but private schools are permitted.”

    Joseph,

    That really makes you happy, doesn’t it? No topic seems to excite you more than that of corporal punishment and physical compulsion. You still haven’t disclosed who your Rabbeim were.

    #1457806

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Regardless of what Joseph says, licensed private schools are not allowed to inflict corporal punishment. Of course unlicensed dont care

    #1457851

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: You’re incorrect. Yeshivos and Chadorim are not licensed or approved by the State. They are religious schools or seminaries acting independently from the State and they need no license from the State, as that would be a violation of the separation of Church and State.

    The secular studies program of Yeshivos may be state licensed or approved. And they may be subject to state educational regulations. But NOT the morning Limudei Kodesh program or Rebbes. The State has no control, say-so, regulatory control or licensing requirements for the rebbeim and limudei kodesh. Nor can the State educational department inspect or visit the limudei kodesh program. State Educational regulations do not apply to the religious program of the school.

    As an aside, even approved/licensed private schools that are subject to the State educational regulations, if they violate those regulations it is a civil regulatory violation that only can result in financial penalties to the school. It is not a criminal matter since those regulations aren’t codified state statues but rather only executive issued regulations.

    #1457896

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Kids aren’t stupid. If they observe that only bad kids get love and affection, they will deliberately turn bad.

    #1458044

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, if State regs don’t apply to limudai kodesh, why had the Agudah ( along with the Catholic church ) fought tooth and nail over the years to prevent the fingerprinting of teachers ( currently mandated for public school teachers ) in religious schools?

    #1458064

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    You’re free to question the context and veracity of the reports I presented from the Divrei Yoel, Rav Elyashiv, and others. I am plenty skeptic, and all those who shared these incidents with me, in print, in video, or word of mouth are implicitly trusted by me. I cannot force anyone to accept those bits of information. Myself, I do not always accept such things, and won’t fault anyone for doing the same.

    The overriding point is that the whitewash pronouncement of the Satmar Dayanim is not acceptable. yes, I respect them, but they are wrong here. Their pilpul is simply not applicable, concerning the facts. And there is ample support from a great variety of Gedolei Yisroel (Many references I cited in detail that can be verified) that such discarding of neshamos is certainly unwarranted. Whether one must accept them all can be questioned (I acknowledge teshuvah inasmuch as I would want HKB”H to accept mine). No one was discussing a single situationin which dayanim paskened to reject. The matter at hand was a generalization that all OTD kids are to be permanently rejected, zero kiruv, and no possibility of teshuvah. That deserves my defiance.

    For those who are inclined to be rejecting of other Yidden, I guess there is the freedom to buy the Satmar publication. For me, it goes into the shaimos pile.

    #1458119

    josh2336
    Participant

    It is a Mitzvah to love your children, and even if they have become secularized, you must not lock them out. There is always the hope of tshuva. Imagine what G-d will say on Judgement Day, if your children would have come back to observance but didn’t because you shut them out. A parent who’s child becomes secularized would be wise to blame himself as much as his child. Repent and pray, there is always hope.

    #1458162

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Did Rav Schach disown his son and grandchildren?

    #1458189

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD, regarding Rav Shachs son, it is not relevant to the above scenario’s, as he did not abandon Yidishkeit in total. In any case, the following is an excerpt from an interview with his son:

    במשך השנים קיבל הבן תגובות רבות על הצעד שעשה: “אבא, אצל מי שלא הכיר אותו, נתפס כאחד הקיצוניים ביותר. אמרו ‘הוא בוודאי זרק אותך מהבית’. זה לא בדיוק קרה, הוא לא היה עושה את זה, הוא היה אבא, ואני ניסיתי להיות בן נאמן. אני מקווה שהצלחתי”.

    #1458179

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Shach’s son and grandson were and are always frum. (He became Daati, not anything else.)

    #1458428

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    His grandaughter even joined the IDF

    #1458423

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    The matter at hand was a generalization that all OTD kids are to be permanently rejected, zero kiruv, and no possibility of teshuvah

    No, that’s not the matter at hand. This position which you attribute to Satmar dayanim represents an extreme that both of us agree is not correct. Your persistence in refuting it in response to my posts does nothing to respond to what I have written, therefore it seems to me like nothing more than a straw man. I am raising two objections about the parenting philosophy that you have introduced on this thread, which I believe goes to the unhealthy opposite extreme of the so-called Satmar philosophy:

    1. Lack of boundaries in the home. So far you have responded using a series of lengthy feints – either re-characterizing reasonable boundaries in the home as restrictive or punitive rules on the child (which they are not), or making it sound like you agree about the importance of boundaries, but then justifying their removal. This is dangerous and destructive both for the child in question and the home. Responding by telling me again how bad the “Satmar” extreme is does not address this.

    2. A setup that seems to incentivize going OTD, particularly for families with more than one child. You can chastise my intelligence or stability for bringing this question up all you want, but it’s a legitimate issue and you have failed to address it. GAON offered his own response, and I responded to him as well, which you can read above if you want.

    If you want to say let’s agree to disagree, I’m fine with that. But I don’t want my position misrepresented in the process.

    #1458493

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think you are confusing harm reduction with incentives.

    Is the following an incentive or harm reduction. On friday night, the kid says I am going to hang out with my friends (And you know that means activities including smoking pot) or I am going to watch TV (Or Netflix or whatever). Sitting at the shabbos singing zemiros is not an option you are given and in fact if you enforce that choice, they might leave without asking you to go hang with their friends smoking a joint

    Which do you choose? Is it really an incetive to let them watch TV (Or Netflix on their ipad with 4g that you cannot control with the router) or harm reduction

    #1458612

    Phil
    Participant

    “Rav Shach’s son and grandson were and are always frum. (He became Daati, not anything else.)”

    Joseph,

    You harangue and criticize Dati Jews as worse than irreligious whenever you’re given the slightest chance to do so. But now that we’re discussing the family of Harav Schach, zt”l, Dati Jews aren’t quite so evil? Please do enlighten us.

    #1458648

    GAON
    Participant

    ZD,

    Halachakly speaking, (i’m not speaking from a chinuch perspective) watching your iPad is no doubt the better option. Smoking is deOraysa on each and every puff, plus igniting the fire (and who knows what other issurim that “hanging out” will end up with), whereas, iPad usage might only be a Rabanon.

    On the same note, perhaps you can request/explain the OTD child that you understand you have issues and you can not be restricted to keep Shabbos, but if he can please do you the favor and only transgress Issur Rabanon’s (Muktzah, only using a train Uber, bus, etc, only led lights etc.).

    Does anyone suggest the above?

    #1458751

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    “Is the following an incentive or harm reduction. On friday night, the kid says I am going to hang out with my friends (And you know that means activities including smoking pot) or I am going to watch TV (Or Netflix or whatever).”

    That’s a very unusual statement for a child to make. Would he really base his decision on what to do that evening based on my “permission” to watch TV or Netflix or whatever? Probably not. If the kid really wants to hang out with friends, would TV dissuade him? And if he really wants to watch TV, is this whole hang-out setup a threat of some sort? This doesn’t strike me as a realistic conversation.

    And the specific boundary I’m talking about that TLIK thinks is so horrendous is disturbing the oneg Shabbos of the house – I don’t want a TV or laptop or whatever in my living room, in view of the rest of the household, for example. I’m not suggesting forcing a kid with his own 4G data plan to sing zemiros at my table, nor doing searches of his belongings.

    “Which do you choose? Is it really an incetive to let them watch TV (Or Netflix on their ipad with 4g that you cannot control with the router) or harm reduction”

    Sure sounds like an incentive to me – incentives and harm reduction are not mutually exclusive. I’d be interested in the age the child in this example is, in your mind. A quick price check on an iPad with an unlimited data plan (needed if the kid is going to stream endless Netflix over 4G) came in at around $100 per month – nothing to sneeze at. And that doesn’t include a phone,/phone line/taxes, etc. Netflix is $8 to $14 per month. We might be talking about a monthly entertainment cost of $150-$200 here. Where’s the dough coming from?

    #1458697

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, I’d rather leave you in suspense.

    #1458756

    GAON
    Participant

    Phil, Good point, but regardless what Joseph thinks. Here are the words of ד”ר אפרים שך himself:

    “אבא שלי הוכיח גדלות מסוימת כשהוא קיבל את דרכי, למרות שזו לא הייתה הדרך שהוא היה רוצה שאני אלך בה”, סיפר הבוקר לידידיה מאיר בראיון מיוחד לתוכנית “התעוררות”, “ברגע שאני עזבתי את הישיבה והצטרפתי לצה”ל, ראית את גדולתו בכך שהוא מסוגל היה לקבל זאת, כל עוד – ואת זה הוא אמר בצורה ברורה – כל עוד אני נשאר נאמן לתורת ישראל ולאמונת ישראל”.

    #1458758

    Phil
    Participant

    “Phil, I’d rather leave you in suspense.”

    Joseph,

    Sorry to disappoint you. I didn’t expect you to be able to answer a simple, direct question about your scornful behavior.

    #1458863

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You can get unlimited Data on many plans for about $50 a month and just turn your phone into a hot spot. it doenst cost $100 a month.

    The problem is you keep asking a Kasher of a Maaser, Whenever I bring up some clearly Unshabbosdick activity you can you will shut off the router or the 4G costs too much. Maybe the kid is stealing the Wifi from a neighbor. Maybe a bunch of kids share Netflix. What ever he did , he got Netflix to work on his iPad (Kids arent stupid, they probably know more than you and can defeat any roadblock you put in front)

    Maybe the kid has a job to pay for things like their phone (Dont make a Kasher of a Maaser what kind of job and you can stop him from working)

    I never advocated doing it in the living room, Obviosuly you tell the kid to go upstairs and watch in their room quietly

    #1458852

    GAON
    Participant

    Regarding Rav Shach’s ZTL non-observant grandchildren, I found another interesting interview with his son:

    Q: אתה יודע, החרדים יכולים להגיד: “תראו, שני ילדים לרב שך: אפרים רצה להיות גם דתי וגם משכיל והנה ילדיו יצאו חילונים ואילו הבת של הרב שך, שנשארה חרדית ולא פזלה להשכלה, ילדיה נשארו שומרי תורה ומצוות”. איך תשיב לטענה כזו?

    A: “זה שאני נכשלתי בחינוך של הילדים – זו עובדה. ולמרות זאת אני חושב שהשיטה שלי היא הנכונה: השילוב הזה של כללי ורוחני גם יחד. אי-אפשר לבד. העולם החילוני – אתה רואה את השטויות שהם עושים, זה משהו מזעזע. אבל מצד שני אי-אפשר להיות במאה ה-21 מבלי להשתמש בכל הכלים הכלליים שיש בעולם. זה בלתי אפשרי”.

    Q איך היה היחס של אבא לנכדים החילונים שלו?

    A: “מופלא. זה היה משהו-משהו. הוא אהב את עמליה ודורון אהבת נפש. הוא היה רך אליהם ומנשק אותם. בכל פגישה איתם הוא היה נפרד מהם במשפט שהעיקר שיישבו וילמדו. אפילו כשדורון הפסיק ללכת עם כיפה, אליו הוא הגיע חבוש כיפה. אבל אבא לא היה טיפש, הוא ידע תמיד את הכל וגם את העובדה המצערת הזו”.

    Q יכול להיות שהילדים הפכו לחילונים כסוג של הכרזת עצמאות או כסוג של מרידה? כמו שאתה נהגת ביחס לאורח החיים של אביך?

    A “לא-לא. אל תחפש משהו שלא נמצא. דורון הוריד את הכיפה מתוקף משימותיו בצבא, בסיירת הצנחנים בה שירת, ואחר כך בשירות הביטחוני במשרד ראש הממשלה, שם הוא משרת עד היום. מכאן זה נגרם, לא ממרידה. ושתדע, הילדים שלי במישור האמוני הם מאמינים גדולים בבורא עולם, אבל זה נכון שעל קיום המצוות, על חלק מקיום המצוות, הם לא מקפידים”.

    #1458883

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Gaon

    Each case is differnet, I was just trying to give an example where the choices are to Mechalal Shabbos no matter what, but in one scenerio at least the kid is being Mechalel shabbos where you can watch them and know they are safe vs where they are mechalel shabbos and you worry about their physical safety

    One can always do tshuva from watching Netflix on Shabbos, you cannot do real tshuva if you go out hanging out with your friends drinking beers and then drive drunk and hurt someone innocent

    #1459011

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    “You can get unlimited Data on many plans for about $50 a month and just turn your phone into a hot spot. it doenst cost $100 a month.”

    Yeah, those Verizon offers look really good, don’t they? I’m talking about the bill. But whatever.

    “The problem is you keep asking a Kasher of a Maaser”

    I think you have misunderstood my points, and have responded to the least important part of my post and completely ignored the most important. If the “kid” is choosing between hanging with friends and watching entertainment he supplies himself on Friday night, it is unlikely his shomer Shabbos parents’ blessing on TV watching will make much of a difference in his plans. My harping on the difficulties of setting up these activities serves only to demonstrate the independence that this “kid” already wields.

    “Whenever I bring up some clearly Unshabbosdick activity you can you will shut off the router or the 4G costs too much.”

    I’m sorry, I probably didn’t make my reasoning for writing those responses clear. The reason I keep mentioning the difficulties in acquiring these “unshabbosdik” activities is to show that we’re not really talking about a “kid” here, but rather a young adult. Let’s make a deal – you stop placing a hypothetical adult into my home and calling him a child, and I’ll stop pointing out how your hypotheticals require adult skills to accomplish.

    “(Kids arent stupid, they probably know more than you and can defeat any roadblock you put in front)”

    It’s sad to me that you think that by simply not providing something, that is a “roadblock.” No wonder so many young people have a sense of entitlement that is completely out of whack with the real world.

    “Maybe the kid has a job to pay for things like their phone (Dont make a Kasher of a Maaser what kind of job and you can stop him from working)”

    So again, we’re talking about an adult here. Not a child.

    “I never advocated doing it in the living room, Obviosuly you tell the kid to go upstairs and watch in their room quietly”

    Then why on earth are you arguing with me? You should be arguing with TLIK, because according to him, by telling the kid to go upstairs, you are rejecting him and causing him horrible pain and driving him off the derech. No watching in the living room on Shabbos is a <shudder>boundary</shudder>.

    #1459015

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    16 year old kids can get part time jobs

    15 or 16 is when you start losing some control over a kid

    #1459044

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Shach said had he sung Shabbos zemiros with a bren like his neighbor that he could hear, then his son would’ve been a Ben Torah.

    #1459056

    The little I know
    Participant

    Avram:

    In a few of your comments, you have labeled me something that I am not. Whether this fits the technicality of מכנה שם לחבירו or not is not the issue. But I should clarify, so that you are not walking around believing that I am okay with kids being mechalel Shabbos just because telling them not to would be rejection.

    For starters, we are dealing with a kid that is already acting out, not initial chinuch. The OTD kid is doing so in pain, though we may not know what precipitated it. This is not about the blame game either. What we do tell a kid is what will produce the best result for the kid. If imposing will on him just makes him rebel, then we need to find another option. No, I do not absolve the kid of responsibility either. But his acting out from his personal pain does not designate him as an apikores either.

    The argument I make is that boundary setting, a critical part of basic chinuch, must be done right and at the proper time. At the wrong time, it does not convey a message of direction but a set of criteria to earn punishment. That message rejects, and has no place in chinuch. No one would be pleased to be ordered around like that, and at the very least, מה דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. If one needs to give this direction to a kid that is already OTD, or even struggling, there needs to be guidance how to accomplish that. I will share a general rule in all of chinuch. Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning (whether information or behavior). The role of the mechanech (rebbe, teacher, or parent) is to teach, not control. There are times when it becomes necessary to engage in control, but that is not true chinuch, and should also be the exception. When we fail to teach אהבת השם to our children and talmidim, we have failed at our mission. No one is perfect, and many of us will have experienced failures.

    I do not believe that boundaries are forms of rejection. But the kid needs to hear it as a boundary, not a criterion for punishment or tolerance. Hashem’s love for Klal Yisroel was ever present even after the חטא העגל. That needs to be our role model for how to love. Under the very worst conditions, Hashem never interrupted the מן or the בארה של מרים. He never rejected us, even throughout the turbulent years of the דור המדבר with a series of negative events. I humbly believe that HKB”H knows a lot better than humans, and that the love for a Yid needs to be unconditional. Ultimate rejection is not in our domain. If we are machmir on everything else in life, why not apply that to the cherishing of a Yiddishe neshomoh?

    #1459107

    Phil
    Participant

    “Rav Shach said had he sung Shabbos zemiros with a bren like his neighbor that he could hear, then his son would’ve been a Ben Torah.”

    Joseph,

    Had the father in question been dati, you’d be telling us how typical that is because they simply don’t care about Shabbos the way charedim do.

    #1459495

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “Rav Shach said had he sung Shabbos zemiros with a bren like his neighbor that he could hear, then his son would’ve been a Ben Torah.”

    His son denied it in the above interview. I can not post the link but search on “הבן יקיר שמרד בדרך” or “ד”ר אפרים שך”

    Here are his words:
    Q: “שמעתי פעם שהרב שך אמר “אני מאשים את עצמי על כך שאפרים סטה מהדרך כי במקום לשיר בשולחן שבת זמירות של שבת, העדפתי ללמוד.

    A: אולי מישהו שמע את זה ממנו – אני לא שמעתי. ייתכן גם שזו אגדה ולא חסרות אגדות על אבא.

    #1459955

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    “16 year old kids can get part time jobs”

    If a 16 year old can get himself a job, pay for his own phone, Internet, etc., then zei gezunt. He’s not going to sit in his parents’ home and whine about how their Shabbos restrictions crimp his style. He’s going to blow out of there at age 18 and graduate summa cum laude from somewhere. The vast majority of these OTD type discussions center around kids who still have quite a bit of dependence on their parents, but chafe at the rules of the home.

    #1459958

    Bubbyo
    Participant

    To “less chumras” I’m not sure where your info is from, but I was required, along with all teachers in the BYHS where I teach, to have a police report with fingerprinting done. I believe that the directive came from Torah Umesorah. when the school scheduled an inspection.
    Stop the blaming! It is pointless. For every “reason” s/o comes up with for why children go OTD, there are at least as many exceptions both ways. What is important is that the parents (and the school, if the child is still school-aged) get direction from people who are knowledgeable and have had success with these issues. Each situation is unique and requires a tailor-made approach.
    “Hock” on the internet is not helpful.

    #1459950

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    The little I know,

    “In a few of your comments, you have labeled me something that I am not. Whether this fits the technicality of מכנה שם לחבירו or not is not the issue.”

    Nonetheless, you wrote it, so please clarify what you mean. I have had no intention of labeling you with anything. There are some elements of the parenting philosophy you presented here that I have taken strong objection to, just like you have taken strong objection to the “pronouncement of the Satmar dayanim.”

    “If imposing will on him just makes him rebel, then we need to find another option.”

    Not everything is in the control of the parent, including whether the kid rebels or not. And there are limits on what we can and should do in our attempt to prevent rebellion. That doesn’t mean we don’t love the child, or that we are rejecting the child.

    “But his acting out from his personal pain does not designate him as an apikores either.”

    I never wrote that it did, and I would appreciate it if you stopped implying that that is my position.

    “At the wrong time, it does not convey a message of direction but a set of criteria to earn punishment.”

    You’ve written this multiple times, and I have disagreed multiple times. Maintaining boundaries and meting out punishment are not the same thing. If someone is breaking things in my house and I call the police, I am not punishing him, I am protecting my house.

    “Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning”

    Phrased another way, the ends justify the means? And only a navi can foretell the actual ends.

    “But the kid needs to hear it as a boundary, not a criterion for punishment or tolerance. Hashem’s love for Klal Yisroel was ever present even after the חטא העגל. That needs to be our role model for how to love.”

    Go back and read Sefer Bamidbar and tell me that klal Yisroel never felt that they were being punished, or that their rebellious behavior was tolerated, or that Hashem continually changed His approach with the goal of preventing rebellion. How does the long golus we find ourselves in fit with your philosophy? I don’t think the Torah narrative supports your position, and you continue to misrepresent mine by implying that I somehow support a complete rejection of a child or the withdrawal of love.

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