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I don’t really see the contradiction between RY’s two statements.
The only thing she is doing is calling. She is just making sure first that there is a reason to call. That’s not called “doing something besides call for help”. What if she had mentioned that she had to ask someone for the number first – would that be called “doing something other than calling for help”?
Health,
“That’s illogical!
Our case is s/o is on the ground!”
Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear.
I was saying that according to your logic, everyone should learn how to fly a plane in case they are in a DIFFERENT situation (i.e. not the same as the one being discussed thus far), where a pilot drops dead mid-flight.
Also, the exclamation points may not mean anything to you, but they make you come across like an angry, confrontational person. I guarantee people will respond to you differently if you stopped using them as much as you do.
LU -“They should call for help right away”
Health: Wrong! They should
Step 1:
Check to see if the scene is safe.
Step 2:
Etc..
Health, you said that already. I think you lost track of the discussion here.
Health:If someone is on the ground, everyone should follow these steps…
Meno: (argument against everyone having to know those steps): You can’t expect everyone to know exactly what to do in every situation.
Health: (response to Meno’s argument): that’s why everyone should learn CPR.
Lilmod: (response to Health’s response to Meno’s argument): That was not what you had been talking about. You were talking about laymen who don’t know CPR (and therefore Meno’s argument that you can’t expect them to know what to do in every situation is a valid argument.)
If you have a reason why you think that Meno’s argument is not a valid argument, please state it. But to keep repeating your initial assertion is not a response.
Health – “If someone collapsed, I posted what any logical person should do.
If you’re saying it has to be taught – then every boy & girl, ages 8-10, should be taught it!”
Then by the same logic, every boy & girl, ages 8-10 should be taught how to fly a plane.
LU – “If you have a reason why you think that Meno’s argument is not a valid argument, please state it. But to keep repeating your initial assertion is not a response.”
Thank you very much.
If you’re only calling for help, you don’t have to be on the scene.
Health does have a very interesting point, though I’m not sure why he cloaked such important information into a guessing game.
I got CPR certified years ago, and despite numerous devices intended to simply the process (jingles like, “hey! Are you ok? You – go call 911!” to remember first trying to speak to the person and then getting another bystander to call emergency services – and ABC’s for first opening the airway by tilting the chin up, then breathing mouth-to-mouth, then compressions, repeat), the process was still daunting. Even though I was certified, if I had G-d forbid ever had to use it, I would have been very scared to do so, and overthinking the process.
When Health posted his answer, I thought he left out a step – checking for a pulse – because I originally learned that doing compressions on someone with a heartbeat could be harmful to them. This caused me to look at more recent instructions, and it seems like the process has been simplified extensively from when I learned it. E.g., no more mouth-to-mouth breathing, and focus on compressions alone, which in fact are unlikely to be harmful even if inadvertently done on someone with a heartbeat. This updated guidance seems geared towards encouraging more bystanders, even those untrained, to do something. Because in a case of cardiac arrest, anything is better than nothing, and those first few minutes before the emergency responders arrive are crucial for survival.
One other thing to point out – when calling 911, stay on the line and on the scene if at all possible, because the operator can give you lifesaving instructions over the phone while waiting for help to arrive.
“If you’re only calling for help, you don’t have to be on the scene.”
Not sure what your point is or who this is being said in response to. Please clarify. Thanks!
Avrum: “One other thing to point out – when calling 911, stay on the line and on the scene if at all possible, because the operator can give you lifesaving instructions over the phone while waiting for help to arrive.”
Another reason why one should call 911 right away.
LU -“If you have a reason why you think that Meno’s argument is not a valid argument, please state it. But to keep repeating your initial assertion is not a response.”
Health: “What does a pilot losing his ability to fly have to do with this topic?
There is absolutely no correlation!”
I actually made that comment in response to a different point. I wrote my post before that post of Meno’s was posted. My comment was a continuation of the post I wrote it in.
Regarding your saying, “What does a pilot…”, Meno answered you already. If I have time, maybe I will try to explain again.
Health: Not sure how every 8-10yr has enough life experience and awareness to be solely responsible for gauging whether or not a scene is safe.
Also you’re saying that every child 8+ needs to have a cell phone on hand for emergencies.
Avram -“This updated guidance seems geared towards encouraging more bystanders, even those untrained, to do something.”
Health: “That’s exactly the point! “Untrained”
It’s beyond me, some of the posts in this topic!”
Health, we tried explaining to you.. In any case, without reexplaining everything again, the bottom line is as follows:
You may have some valid points and you may in fact be giving over valuable information. The problem is that you are doing it by way of bashing someone else (the writers and editors of the newspaper quoted).
You are assuming that their shitah must be wrong and yours must be right even though you have not given any proofs to that effect. And even though, we in the CR have given you many arguments as to why their shita makes the most sense.
You want to bring a different shita, feel free to bring a different shita, but don’t bash those that presented the other shita and don’t ignore the arguments of those who agree with it and keep insisting that they are wrong.
Thank you for listening.
Health, in terms of your question regarding ‘what does Meno’s post about planes have to do with anything’, I cut and pasted the relevant parts of that discussion, so you can see where it fit in:
Meno-“It’s very easy to give instructions for one specific situation, but the reality is that there are a thousand different emergencies one could encounter, and it’s unreasonable for a person to be trained to deal with every single one, and it is unreasonable to expect an untrained person to be able to act properly under that kind of stress.And if you’ll say that a person collapsing on the floor is more common, so everyone should be prepared – I’ve been alive for quite a few years, and I have never seen it happen, so it can’t be that common.”
Health: “I wasn’t talking about more common, but about life threatening!”
Meno: “So by that logic, everyone should learn how to fly an airplane, in case the pilot drops dead mid-flight.”
You said that people need to know what to do in the situation of someone collapsing (even though it’s not common) because it is life threatening. So Meno pointed out that according to that logic, everyone should know what to do for any life threatening situation, such as a pilot falling dead, l”a.
LB: Do all the people answering the phone on emergency calls understand English?
In my Israeli experiences, I panic and call out for help in English. Hebrew takes too long to formulate in distress.
I wonder what happens when people need all three? Who do you call then?
B”H I have not had reason to call the emergency numbers, but I know what you mean about forgetting how to speak Hebrew when under a lot of stress. I imagine at least someone at the call center has a certain level of proficiency in the common languages spoken for those who do not know Hebrew – like Russian, Arabic, English.
It is a good question about whether you have to call all 3. If you call an ambulance for a traffic accident, do they automatically call the police to come too, or vice versa? Anybody know?
WTP – your post reminds me of the time we had an emergency situation. My brother had the flu or something and suddenly had trouble breathing.
My mother panicked and told me to call 911. So I picked up the phone and started dialing 911. My mother was like, “No, I mean the Israeli 911!.” So I’m like, “what is that?” So my mother picks up the phone and calls herself.
As soon as someone answered the phone, she tells him, “??? ??? ??? ????”
I cracked up. My mother got mad at me for laughing during a serious time. I actually did it on purpose – I felt that her panic was not helpful for my brother and his breathing, and that by making a joke, I would lighten the situation. It worked – he started laughing too, which meant he had to have been breathing.
ps: if anyone didn’t get that, the hebrew word for breathing is: ?????
Health – I already explained to you what Meno meant, and your response did not relate to what I said. I am sorry that you are having a hard time understanding. I will explain it one more time, and then, I apologize but I will not be able to explain again.
According to Meno, this is a rare occurrence (and t/f there is no reason that anyone has to learn it). Your response to him was to acknowledge that it is a rare occurrence, but to say that people have to learn it anyhow because it is life-threatening. So he pointed out that according to that logic (that people have to know what to do in any life-threatening situation even if it occurs rarely), everyone should have to know what to do if a pilot falls dead.
Now you are saying that the reason that people have to know what to do in that situation is that it was not a hypothetical situation, since it really happened. However that was not your argument earlier and that was not the argument that Meno was responding to when he brought up pilots. Your argument at that time was that it doesn’t matter how rare an occurrence it is as it is life-threatening. That is what he was responding to.
edited
MEno
Even if rare for an individual collectively it isnt rare.
There was recently a thread regarding parking at hydrants. Most agreed it shouldnt be done. Now what are the chances that when I park at a specific hydrant for 5 minutes, during those five minutes that hydrant will be needed? I say pretty small. However if we all park routinely at all hydrants, obviously that would pose more of a risk. so collectively we all forgo parking though the individual risk is quite small.
while You may have never encountered someone who suddenly collapsed. somebody has. SO collectively if we all learn CPR lives will be saved. It is no longer a rarity it is almost a certainty. This is not the case with a pilot dying. Im not sure if it has ever happened that a pilot (and copilot?) have died on board (aside from being murdered which is a separate issue).
Secondly the practicality needs to be weighed against the rarity. flying a plane is complicated training everybody to fly is expensive. Even if pilots were dropping as often as people in the street (which they are not) it still wouldn’t be practical to teach everybody to fly. LEarning the basics of CPR is easy, it is cheap. Taking an easy cheap step to prevent a problem, even a rare one makes sense.
Ubiquitin: “MEno
Even if rare for an individual collectively it isnt rare.”
Now that is a logical response to Meno’s (and to some extent my) argument.
However, you then went on to talk about learning CPR. That wasn’t the original argument. We had been talking about what people who l’maaseh don’t know CPR should do, not about whether or not someone should learn CPR. My point (and I think Meno’s as well) was that if someone does not know CPR, the first thing they should know is to call 911/hatzalah/101 in Israel.
We had not been talking about whether or not everyone should learn CPR. However, regarding CPR, that’s also not so simple. I have had a few CPR courses along the way (high school requirement, college requirement, etc). At least I think they were CPR – I’m not sure – I couldn’t follow at all, and I learned nothing from the course, except that now I am more likely to panic in an emergency because I will feel like there is something I am supposed to be doing and I won’t know what.
Health – “What does a pilot losing his ability to fly have to do with this topic? There is absolutely no correlation!”
There is actually a very strong correlation. They are both emergency situations which will result in death if appropriate immediate action is not taken. Now you explain why they are different. (Actually you don’t have to, because ubiquitin already did an excellent job explaining it)
ubiquitin,
Thank you for the response. You make excellent, clear points, and I’m pretty much convinced now.
There’s just one more thing I want to point out. There’s a difference between KNOWING the proper steps to take in an emergency situation and being ABLE to take the proper steps. Being a trained EMT means more than just knowing the steps, it means being able to stay calm and think with a clear head. It’s just not easy for the average person to do that, and I don’t think someone should be criticized for immediately calling Hatzalah rather than trying to remember all those steps in an emergency situation.
“Her case with the pilot is purely hypothetical!
I hope you Now understand the difference!”
The case with the pilot is not hypothetical. It actually happened.
On October 5, 2015, Pilot Michael Johnston died during an American Airlines flight between Phoenix and Boston.
“Next – practice it a lot.”
It’s a lot to ask from a person to practice a lot just to prepare for an unlikely occurrence.
CPR manikin is $97 online
Health: “Now let’s talk about Jews, even if you aren’t interested in doing it because it’s morally correct, but there is a Chiyov.
So unless you’re the type of person that doesn’t wash Negel Vasser when it’s not convenient, then you can’t make excuses in this case!”
The correct comparison would not be to washing Negelvasser; it would be to learning all the halachos that can possibly ever come up in your lifetime, even those that don’t come up at all in most people’s lifetimes.
So until a person has learned all the halachos in all four sections of the Shulchan Aruch, I’m not so sure he would be allowed to waste time learning CPR which he may never need and which (according to your prior posts) involves a lot time and effort over an extended period of time to learn.
Additionally, it’s a bit shver to put it in the same category as things that we are chayiv to learn and put into practice according to halacha, unless you know poskim who posken that it is a chiyuv.
“Now tell e/o what’s the difference between the two cases!”
Ubiquitin already explained the difference very nicely a few posts up. Though I’m still not sure I agree fully, because one of his main points is that CPR is easier to learn that flying a plane, which is true, but it is still not easy enough. The level at which most people learn CPR is not really adequate to help in a real life situation, and to expect them to learn more than that is unreasonable.
“but there is a Chiyov”
Is there really? Maybe there is a chiyuv to become a doctor and a firefighter also.
Health – you are the one who was poskening. You are poskening that there is a chiyuv for everyone to learn CPR. Sorry, but you are not qualified to posken. All I “poskened” was that you have no basis for your “psak”.
When I first starting working, over 30 years ago, I saw a man lying on the ground in Manhattan, in front of a store. I was a young girl at the time and freaked out, I ran into the store and said, “I think there’s a dead man in front of your store.” The man laughed and walked with me outside where the man was laying. He said the man lies there all the time to probably sleep off his hang-over. He told me to watch his chest and see that he’s still breathing. I eventually learned what homeless people are about and they try to lay down in “cozier” areas. If someone is lying in the middle of nowhere and looks descent, I think we can safely assume that EMS or Hatzala should be called. I hope we would all do the right thing under these circumstances.
Health: “First, take CPR & first aid.
Next – practice it a lot. You can buy your own manikin for cheap!”
Meno: “It’s a lot to ask from a person to practice a lot just to prepare for an unlikely occurrence.”
Health: “Now let’s talk about Jews, even if you aren’t interested in doing it because it’s morally correct, but there is a Chiyov.
So unless you’re the type of person that doesn’t wash Negel Vasser when it’s not convenient, then you can’t make excuses in this case!”
Health: “I never wrote such a thing! You put words into my mouth, so you can say – I’m not right!..
I don’t see anywhere that you must learn CPR!”
Health,
“Of course there are! So e/o should learn CPR & first aid.”
“I don’t see anywhere that you must learn CPR!”
Health,
“It doesn’t mean that I agreed with your post!”
What? You said two things that directly contradicted each other. I just quoted those two things. This is the same thing LU was doing. No one is manipulating anything.
By the way, I honestly think you could win this debate if you gave good arguments. I think those arguments exist, and I think you know them, you’re just not doing a good job getting them out.
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