February 22, 2013 12:39 am at 12:39 am #608316
Anyone have ideas of what one can eat in a regularly stocked, non-kosher kitchen?
Assume there is no actual milk and meat mixing, so the worst is chalav stam and possibly non-kosher dairy products.
I am not looking for a psak, just what type of food one would look for, if one was hungry, besides fresh fruit and veggies, which is obvious, and double wrapping and microwaving to cook them.February 22, 2013 2:32 am at 2:32 am #932240
Do they use treif fish in this kitchen or do they cook with non-kosher wine?February 22, 2013 2:46 am at 2:46 am #932241
RD: Good point about the non-kosher fish! I didn’t think of that.
They only use kosher wine, for various reasons.February 22, 2013 3:39 am at 3:39 am #932242
You principal problem is going to be bishul akum. So you can have something for which there is no issur bishul akum, i.e. foods that are regularly eaten raw or foods that are not fit for a royal table.February 22, 2013 4:06 am at 4:06 am #932243
Many commercial cookies, crackers, pretzels are kosher, depending on where you stand with cholov yisroel and yoshon. I remember a visit to a family member who was not too particular about what she bought or served. Her son, who was a lot more aware, took out everything they had that was fit to eat and offered it to us. Have a cold beverage, and enjoy your visit.February 22, 2013 4:33 am at 4:33 am #932244
its prob not bishul akum if shes talking abt a not religious relative.. but does bishul akum apply to not frum or only non jewish?February 22, 2013 4:34 am at 4:34 am #932245
also isnt a not shomer shabbs jew touching wine also a prob?February 22, 2013 5:34 am at 5:34 am #932246
Most wine is mevushal. Plus, if a person is a tinok shenishba, would they have the din of a mechallel shabbos b’farhesya? And, Reb Moshe paskens that mikar hadin, a person that is Mechallel Shabbos that touches wine does not prohibit the wine mikar hadin.
Also, even if they cooked swordfish or sturgeon, that wouldn’t treif up the pots and pans, since there are shitos which say these fish are kosher (R’ Hershel Schachter, the Noda bi Yehuda, Knesset haGedolah, and the “mesorah” experts Greenspan and Zivotofsky, for starters).
My feeling is that objectively, there would be little to cause their kitchen to be treif.February 22, 2013 8:50 am at 8:50 am #932247
Are snortfish Kosher?February 22, 2013 11:20 am at 11:20 am #932248
how do you know they dont have non-kosher milk?February 22, 2013 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #932249
So shrimp, crab, lobster or clams wouldn’t be a problem? How about the cheeses? Or how they grease the pans? I am sure they check for ??????. There can be many issues with anything. Perhaps tuna from a can with a ?????. Uncut fruit. Probably coffee I’m a glass or disposable cup.February 22, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #932250
I didn’t realize that we were talking about a non-frum Jewish person’s kitchen (I thought we were talking about non-kosher dairy restaurant kitchen).
You have to be careful about gvinas akum which doesn’t have the same leniency that R’Moshe held of for chalav.
In terms of pots and pans, you would have to be worried about them cooking shrimp, clams and lobster.
I think that when it comes to Wine, we are not more lenient for a tinok sh’nishba. The fear is that you will learn from their ways, it is not a punishment. Where is the R’Moshe you are referring to? R’Moshe holds that for someone to be a mechallel shabbos b’farhesia, they must not limit their doing of melacha on shabbos at all (someone who drives, but not in front of the Rav won’t be a mumar).February 22, 2013 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #932251
Rd and Ben, the Chazon Ish was meikil for tinok shenishba, but not R’ Moshe.
The pots mighty not be a problem if the homeowner already cooked the food; stam keilim einom bnei yoman.
Whether or not a mechallel Shabbos makes bishul akum is a big machlokes acharonim.February 22, 2013 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #932252
Why would you ever want to eat anything from a dairy kitchen?February 22, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #932253
Most wines are NOT mevushal.
Cheeses- especially fancy types- may have non kosher ingredients in it or used in the processing.February 22, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #932254
I am not talking about a non-religious relative. With relatives, you can ask them to buy you things for when you’re there. 🙂
If you must know, it’s a Jewish but secular person or group of people, who has some respect for frum Jews (so they won’t be deliberately causing me problems) but not so much education. I checked and they only drink kosher wine. It is more analogous to a dairy restaurant kitchen, with a little less options.
Benignuman: bishul akum is just not a problem here. Afaik it’s only ever been used by Jews. Do I have to somehow prove that this is the case?
farrock: I keep both CY and Yoshon. I’m a little more lax on CY if I have to be, but very strict on Yoshon.
TPO: Good point about non-shomer Shabbos Jew touching non-mevushal wine. Not that I plan on drinking wine there, but if they use it in recipes…
YW 42: Do they have fins and scales?
Toi: Chalav stam milk.
nisht: Thanks! These are the kind of issues I need to ask questions about.
Benign: I think they know that shellfish are not kosher, and they could use another kitchen if they wanted to eat that. But gvinas akum is another issue… thanks!
DY that was interesting
PBA: I’m not a boy and don’t want to live on wine and meat. At least not on a daily basis.
yungerman: Thanks.February 22, 2013 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #932255
Igros Moshe OC 5: 37 says that mikar hadin, there would be no issue with wine touched by a mechallel shabbos. He says that : One may not give wine to a Yisrael Mumar idolater, for he may not drink it. Does the same apply to a Mechalel Shabbos in public? The primary decree was only for real Nochrim due to intermarriage. We find that it applies even to a Yisrael Mumar to idolatry (Chulin 4b). After the decree, Yehoshafat could not drink Achav’s wine. However, if a Yisrael Mechalel Shabbos in public does not serve idolatry, there is no concern for Nisuch. We do not find in the Poskim that he makes Yayin Nesech. The Beis Yosef brought this from the Rashba, and Nekudas ha’Kesef brought it, but they did not put it in the Shulchan Aruch and Shach. It was not so clear to them. The custom is not to drink wine that he touched. A Sefer attributed to Rashi says so. We may decide Halachah based on a custom to be lenient, but not based on a custom to be stringent, for anyone may be stringent if he is unsure. Also, perhaps it is not a universal custom, rather, only for Yir’ei Shamayim. Since the Isur is not clear, and it seems that it is only a custom and not letter of the law, we are not stringent not to give to a Mechalel Shabbos to drink. Even if this is due to animosity, this is the custom. Even if there is a Safek that perhaps some are stringent about this, we are lenient about a Safek mid’Rabanan.
With cheese, if they use vegetarian rennet cheeses, like Tablet K (most cheeses produced in general are vegetarian, as animal rennet is obsolete), one can probably be somech on Rabbenu Tam, Avodah Zarah 35b, s.v. chada; that wouldn’t pose an issue for the kashrus of their pots and pans. Something like mozzarella or feta would be even less of an issue, since it’s a soft cheese that the gezera may not even apply to.
I above said that shellfish and catfish in the pans would be an issue.
You probably wouldn’t have many issues at all eating in such a kitchen.
Also, I try to be makpid on yashan, as that is a real issur d’oraita, whereas the milk we have in America would all be considered halav yisrael according to the Hazon Ish and Reb Moshe.February 22, 2013 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #932256
rebdoniel – Why would you think it’s so simple that “one can probably be somech on Rabbenu Tam” if the Shulchan Aruch and Rema ruled not like him?February 22, 2013 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #932257
I don’t see were you mention shellfish above. You go out of your way to say that swwordfish and sturgeon are not a problem and therefore one would have few issues eating from such a kitchen. Which you reiterate again below with out substantiation. There are numerous issues that ylu have not deallt with. And a number of you assumptions are no more than just that, assumptions about what may be in that kitchen.
As an aside, whay do you only *try* to be makpid on yoshon if you feel that is a deoraisa?
If it is because you believe that yoshon does not apply to chuts laaretz, then hakpadah on it is even less apllicable than cholov yisroel which certainly applies. R Moshe must have held that American milk is not the same as cholov yisroel because a) he was makpid on it himself and b0 he told yeshivos that they should spend the extra money it costs to provide cholov yisroel.February 22, 2013 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #932258
The first time I went to work in a non-Jewish place, someone asked me to give someone Jewish a meal that involved pork. (it was fully wrapped and I did not know what was in it, it was a hold it until they come type of situation.) I was about to agree when a Catholic person said, “I thought you’re not allowed to do that!” So I called my father who told me I can’t. Why they did not teach that you can’t bring non-kosher food to a Jewish person in HS, in between Hilchos Shabbos, Tznius, and basar v’chalav, I do not know.
RD: This thread is not for psak, more for letting me be aware of what’s out there. Besides, it seems to me that you are more Modern Orthodox than Orthodox in your halachic ideas, and I would appreciate your not confusing people.February 22, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #932259
When you work in an enviornment with non-jews and non religious jews, you have to be very careful not only how you act and speak , but also how you respect others. I am not saying this from a Halachic point of view, but from someone who has usually (but not always) worked with non-relgious and non jews.
You will meet all kinds of people and some do things you dont like, or even against he torah. Dont preach unless the person wants you too. An unwanted rebuke does more harm than good. A simple example is a co-worker is a toeivah jew.
If you cannot work in such an enviroment, it might be best to look elesewhereFebruary 22, 2013 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #932260
There is a machlokes haposkim about whether or not Yoshon applies m’doiraisa in chutz l’aretz. While m’ikkar hadin we pasken that it is muttar, to be choshesh for the machmir shitta in an issur d’Oraisa is certainly commendable.
Chalav Yisroel is itself an issur d’rabbanan. R’Moshe held that m’ikkar haDin american milk is considered Chalav Yisroel based on an “anan sehadi.” R’Moshe held however that there were grounds to be machmir and therefore it would be commendable for a person to drink only milk directly supervised by a Jew (b’toras chumra).
If a person wants to take on a new chumra (for an extra zchus), it makes more sense to choose the keeping of Yoshon even in Chutz L’aretz, then to choose being machmir for a Chalav Yisrael label on your milk.February 22, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #932261
I don’t recall reading in the I”M that it is cholov Yisroel. Rather that it is mutar.
However, your referring to a cholov Yisroel “label” certainly defines your biases. And there are poskim who did not agree with the heter of R’ Moshe zt”l. So for a number of people the hakpadah is ????? ????.February 22, 2013 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #932262
Zahavasdad, BH I get along with everyone, am extremely well liked to the point I have to ensure it doesn’t go too far. Where in my story would you get the idea that I have trouble dealing with people who are not Jewish, not frum, not interested in the opposite gender, etc.February 22, 2013 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #932263
You just mentioned about heating up Pork for a non-religious jew and you didnt know what to do.
I am not sure how you got into that situation (since I dont know your job desricption)
Reread the story before this goes off topic. It did not mention heating food.February 22, 2013 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #932265
Then reread the teshuvos. It can’t be muttar unless it is Cholov Yisroel. I used the word “label” because according to R’Moshe (whose psak has been nispashet in most of the United States) it is cholov yisroel without the label.
For those poskim that disagree with R’Moshe, you are correct. But once again that is not the norm in the US.
FYI I keep Cholov Yisroel. Don’t call “bias” if you have a reasoned argument.February 22, 2013 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #932266
I am sure those who disagree with Rav Moshe dont say that Chalav Stam is TriefFebruary 24, 2013 2:18 am at 2:18 am #932267
You’re sure, but you’re wrong. Do you have basis for what you’re saying?
You can check out the opinion of the Minchas Yitzchok and others if you’d like.
Nisht, Ben is right; R’ Moshe’s heter assumes that the milk (“cholov hacompanies”) has the din of CY. It’s impractical to label it as CY, though, because of the poskim who disagree, and because R’ Moshe himself preferred supervised milk.February 24, 2013 2:48 am at 2:48 am #932268
I looked at the ????? today and it is clear that he does not call it ??? ?????. In the same ?????(???? ???? ??? he says that ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????. So it is clear it is not just a “label? but a legitimate ?????.February 24, 2013 3:22 am at 3:22 am #932269
Insulting me and insinuating that Modern Orthodoxy is not a legitimate expression of Orthodox Judaism reveal defects in character in those making such hurtful claims.February 24, 2013 3:43 am at 3:43 am #932270
Nisht, he doesn’t call it CY, but the lomdus is that it is considered CY. Others were mattir based on the gezeirah no longer applying, but R’ Moshe is being mattir based on the anan sahadi being a kiyum of the gezeirah.February 24, 2013 5:13 am at 5:13 am #932271
Daas is exactly right. Here is a quote from the teshuva you cited:
???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????.
People use the term “chalav stam” as an easy way of differentiating between those milks that a have a cholov yisrael label. But anyone relying on R’Moshe to drink ordinary milk from the supermarket, holds that such milk has the status of cholov yisrael even without the label.February 24, 2013 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #932272
The Shatark part of my family Will eat the homes of non-chalov yisroel members (assuming they are given Chalov Yisroel) They are quite yeshivishFebruary 24, 2013 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #932273
The Shatark part of my family Will eat the homes of non-chalov yisroel members (assuming they are given Chalov Yisroel) They are quite yeshivish
That’s supposed to prove that all poskim hold that chalav stam is really muttar?February 24, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #932274
It is common among the Yeshivish in America to keep Cholov Yisroel as a chumra. Meaning they are following R’Moshe, both in R’Moshe’s heter and in his dictum of “Ba’al nefesh yachmir.”February 24, 2013 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #932275
There is a differnce between Chalov Stam and Chazar.February 24, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #932276
According to Rav Feinstein’s heter CY is not a chumra, it is plain halacha, however the nature of the US milk which is for sale in ordinary USA supermarkets gives it a din of CY; thus according to Rabbi Feinstein it is proper, but it is not obligatory and not required, to buy CY which actually has been under Jewish supervision, given that he paskened the regular supermarket milk in USA satisfies the CY requirements and is thus permissible. I am not sure how many times this needs to be repeated.February 24, 2013 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #932277
ZD, yes there’s a difference; we’ve been through this before.February 24, 2013 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #932278
I think that Centrist Orthodox Judaism is fine, provided that tznius is kept at all times, at the bare minimum, knees, collarbone, elbows and married woman completely covering her hair.
As a student in a modern orthodox school, I feel that there is no push for hashkaffic growth here, and that bothers me quite a bit. I know that other modern orthodox seminaries do push for hashkafic growth, like mmy, and kiruvy type places like machon maayan, but I feel that anything is only legit if it is a path that encourages hashkafic growth.February 25, 2013 12:58 am at 12:58 am #932279
“Why they did not teach that you can’t bring non-kosher food to a Jewish person in HS, in between Hilchos Shabbos, Tznius, and basar v’chalav, I do not know.”
Bimchilas kevodecha, in Yeshiva highschool and elementary (im a boy) they taught us numerous times that on Shabbos one should be careful when crossing to always cross when its your light because if not you may cause a not (yet) frum Jew to have to stop for you and then when he accelerates again he is mechallel shabbos because of you. Im sure you heard this in school as a kid, and you should have been able to extrapolate that all “lifnei iver (lo sitein michshol) is assur.
Dont blame your school that you missed the boat. No offense I know its harsh please forgive me.February 25, 2013 1:07 am at 1:07 am #932280
She’s a girl. no extrapilation. she should gave been taught.February 25, 2013 2:31 am at 2:31 am #932281
WIY: Maybe it would go under “lifnei iver” but I actually did not learn that about not crossing during don’t walk on Shabbos in school either.
Halacha education consists of hilchos bishul, shmiras Halashon and kibud av vaeim, and random halachos related to the Yomim Tovim. And we were taught halacha almost exclusively from the kitzur, besides for what the teacher asked her husband.
So to some extent, I do blame the systemic education for my need to find out what questions to ask, although I understand they are not educating for people to go michutz lamachane.February 25, 2013 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #932282
I think if you know about lifnei iver u would know about this. Also you never knew that for Amira Laakum you can’t use a irreligious Jewish person?
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