What’s the proper time for a bochur to daven shacharis during bein hazemanim?

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  • #1378411

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    ๐Ÿˆ๐Ÿ“โšฝ๏ธ๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‘๐ŸŽพ๐Ÿธ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ’๐Ÿฅ…โ›ธ๐ŸฅŠ๐Ÿฅ‹๐Ÿน

    #1378467

    (You left out .)
    What makes a bochur different from any other man?

    #1378474

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Prior to the end of zman tefilla.

    #1378502

    yekke2
    Participant

    Randomex – for that price you should have asked what makes Bein Hazmanim different to any other time.

    The difference is that bochurim tend to have little or no structure to Bein Hazmanim, and are therefore free to get up at whatever time they fancy. And the question is – until what time is it considered proper and respectful for a bochur to daven.

    #1378530

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    In our home it was at whatever minyan he accompanied his father to……………….
    Then he went off to work with the father.
    Time off from Yeshiva allowed time to learn the family craft

    #1378531

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Rav Gavornlik argued that when possible (such as during bein hazmanin) when they have the flexibility, yungerleit should consider davening vasikim to show the discipline…sleeping late to the last minute before z’man shachris is not respectful and more attuned to a college kid on spring break partying late and sleeping in the next AM with a hangover.

    #1378544

    akuperma
    Participant

    No earlier than the earlist zman for davening, and no later than the last time to daven b’zman.

    #1378589

    yekke2
    Participant

    I think it is ืœื›ืชื—ื™ืœื” to daven in any minyan that will catch Krias Shema uBirchoseho with Sof Zman Krias Shema, although I don’t think there is anything wrong with davening until Sof Zman Tefillah, provided you say Krias Shema bizmano.

    My mother was once saying that she thinks it is a Chillul Hashem when she says Bnei Torah (aka Bochurim) going to daven at 10.
    I tried to defend Bochurim International; I asked her that if Hashem asks us to daven between 6 and 11 (Sof zman tefillah today in London is 10.54), why does she think it is necessary to change the time from 6 to 9?
    When my father heard me saying that there is no mekor to daven before sof zman tefillah, he gave me The Look, and said: ืื™ืฉืชืžื™ืชื™ื” ืฉื•”ืข ืื•”ื— ืกื™’ ื’ ืกืข’ ื – I forgot the first halachah in Shulchan Aruch. ื™ืชื’ื‘ืจ ื›ืืจื™ ืœืขืžื•ื“ ื‘ื‘ื•ืงืจ ืขื‘ื•ื“ืช ื‘ื•ืจืื• ืฉื™ื”ื ื”ื•ื ืžืขื•ืจืจ ื”ืฉื—ืจ

    #1378601

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Who is “Rav Gavornlik”?

    #1378619

    Yankelle
    Participant

    I don’t know who Rav Gavornlik is, but I like his reasoning. While it is acceptable for a “regular” Jew to daven until the end of the halachically permitted time, a Yeshiva Bachur has supposedly committed his life, or at the very least the current years of his life, to an intense service of Hashem, sometimes to the exclusion of other responsibilities, such as earning a parnassah or assisting with household duties. That being the case, it does not present a good and sincere appearance when the same Bachur that was unable to get a job or clean some dishes during the zman asit might constitute bittul torah, all-of-a-sudden has the time to sleep until the 10:00 AM minyan.

    #1378634

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Perhaps there is some special “dispensation” for the yeshiva talmidim from the mashgiach ruchani to sleep in on Friday AM if one were out late Thursday night attending a seudas mitzvah (aka Chulent night at the local chassidish place) …my recollection is that they had a hard time getting a minyan on Friday am at the YU dorms….maybe not an issue for BMG in Lakewood (or perhaps its just lousy NJ chulent)

    #1378630

    Eli51
    Participant

    A Bochur should daven Schacharis whatever time he Davens when he is in Yeshiva during the Zeman. If he Davens any later than that he is showing Hashem now that he is off from Yeshiva He is taking a rest from Hashem. I also think that adults should daven Schacharis on Sundays, legal Holidays or any weekday he is off the same time he Davens when he goes to work because if not he is showing Hashem he has vacation from work & from Hashem. It’s crazy how many Adults Daven 6:30 every day when they go to work & those same people are davening @ th
    e 9 or 9:30 minyan whey they are off. The 99:00 AM Schacris in my opinion should only be for those that daven @ that time every day or for someone that was traveling overnight & got delayed.

    #1378631

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I have a hard time understanding Rav Gavornlik’s position. A person who normally davens in yeshiva at 8:00 AM should daven vasikin bein hazmanim to show his discipline? Wouldn’t davening at an 8:00 minyan show the same discipline he shows all year?
    When my second oldest son was a “bochur” (his chasunah was during 5777), his decision what minyan to daven at bein hazmanim would depend on what time he was meeting his chavrusah to learn. He generally davened at 8:00 but sometimes he was able to sleep “late” and daven at 8:30.

    #1378646

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The general inyan that one should “hasten” to perform a mitzvah would suggest davening earlier and not waiting for the latest possible minyan for a bochur to daven….normally, at the yeshiva, he could roll out of bed and be in the beis medrash for davening within a few minutes…at home during bein hazmanim, that time line is obviously longer. As a practical matter, unless you live within a few blocks of a shul which has non-stop minyaniim right up until z’man, this entire thread may be irrelevant

    #1378647

    The little I know
    Participant

    There are two issues implied which are separate questions, requiring separate answers.

    1. What time should a bochur daven bein hazmanim? As was answered eariler in this post – before the end of zman tefilah.

    2. How should a bochur budget his time during bein hazmanim? Long answers needed, and will vary greatly among bochurim. There should always be learning time. Some helping around at home. Some leisure time. The formula (I may have omitted some things) is unlikely to be identical between any two bochurim. But there does need to be responsibility. Humans are not driven by instinct, but rather by saichel.

    #1378683

    yekke2
    Participant

    Eli51: A Bochur should daven Schacharis whatever time he davens when he is in Yeshiva during the Zeman. If he davens any later than that he is showing Hashem now that he is off from Yeshiva He is taking a rest from Hashem

    Do you think a bochur should learn during bein hazmanim the same amount that he learns during zman?
    Explain, in your own words, what you feel the function of bein hazmanim is?

    (As far as standards in Halacha/Avoidas Hashem (such as missing zman krias shema, or watching movies), I agree with you, that there is no difference between zman and bein hazmanim, and lowering standards when out of yeshiva indicates a general lack of sincerity or devotion.)

    #1378803

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Yekke 2 asks: “Explain, in your own words, what you feel the function of bein hazmanim is?….”

    For those who don’t take the admonition of “V’hagesa bo yomam valaylah” literally, it means the reality that there are yom tovim, which require preparation time everyone from the Rosh Yeshiva, the many rabbonim who may be magid shiiur down to the workers in the chadar ochel to the janitors who sweep the floors in the beis medrash. These same people have families and require time off for rest and vacation The reality is that even the most dedicated masmid needs a break. You cannot shteig 24x7x365.

    #1378819

    Eli51
    Participant

    To Yekke2 People daven three times a day every day so you should daven the same time you would daven when in Yeshiva. Bochurim should learn in Bein Hazmanim as long as they could. Of course if they need to learn a little less to refresh their minds they can take a brake to spend time with family or to help out around the house or sleep a little.

    #1378839

    yekke2
    Participant

    For those who donโ€™t take the admonition of โ€œVโ€™hagesa bo yomam valaylahโ€ literally, it means the reality that there are yom tovim, which require preparation time everyone from the Rosh Yeshiva, the many rabbonim who may be magid shiiur down to the workers in the chadar ochel to the janitors who sweep the floors in the beis medrash. These same people have families and require time off for rest and vacation The reality is that even the most dedicated masmid needs a break. You cannot shteig 24x7x365.

    The Yeshiva system was not set up with holidays simply so that the staff could prepare for Yomim Tovim. The real reason, as you acknowledge at the end of your post – The reality is that even the most dedicated masmid needs a break. You cannot shteig 24x7x365. – Or, to phrase it slightly differently, to ensure optimal shteiging 24x7x365, humans need breaks. For some amazing bochurim – and they are not so rare, b”H – bein hazmanim means learning in a different Beis Hamedrash, perhaps browsing through some Achronim they wouldn’t during zman. I have a chavrusa who learns 12 hours a day during Bein Hazmanim. Most of us need time to recharge our batteries. This is a situation of ื‘ื™ื˜ื•ืœื• ื–ื”ื• ืงื™ื•ืžื•. So, in summary, B”H is not holiday from Avoidas Hashem, but Avoidas Hashem is to holiday.

    #1378847

    yekke2
    Participant

    I was brought up with the principle that you set your life around your avoidas Hashem, not the other way around. In other words, we don’t daven when we wake up, we wake up to daven. The idea of deciding which minyan to join was totally foreign to my father; you decided what time you were davening and set your alarm accordingly. If I planned on davening at 7.45 and ended up davening 8.15, in his eyes, that was oversleeping. Not getting up at the time planned was considered a ื—ื™ืกืจื•ืŸ in Avoidas Hashem.

    #1378846

    yekke2
    Participant

    To Yekke2 People daven three times a day every day so you should daven the same time you would daven when in Yeshiva.

    You haven’t explained why you feel the time one davens during Bein Hazmanim should be the same time it is in Yeshiva.

    #1378860

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I think it all depends on how he spends the rest of the day.

    #1378889

    Eli51
    Participant

    To yekke2 Davening should be the same time as in Yeshiva because if you wake up for the 7:30 Minyan in Yeshiva every day during the Zeman & you daven later you are taking a vacation from Hashem.

    #1378905

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    if you wake up for the 7:30 Minyan in Yeshiva every day during the Zeman & you daven later you are taking a vacation from Hashem.

    No, it doesn’t mean that.

    #1378960

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: You wrote “normally, at the yeshiva, he could roll out of bed and be in the beis medrash for davening within a few minutes”.
    That is if you are actually dorming by the yeshiva. My son’s dira was a 15 minute walk from his yeshiva.

    #1379002

    El Rushbo
    Participant

    No matter when it is, just don’t make him totally nuts. It’s not worth it FOR EITHER OF YOU. He works hard during the zman and probably uses bain hazmanim to “chill out” a little bit. I think it’s YOU, THE PARENT, that needs to relax.

    As for the for the poster above who mentioned that in their house the bochur went to work with Daddy, that might have been the case but over the years BH people are realizing more and more what Chol HaMoed REALLY is…. YOM TOV, and more people are talking off of work then ever before. Granted if you want a business that requires you to stay open because of Chol HaMoed or Yom Tov, you don’t really have that option.

    #1379051

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “people are realizing more and more what Chol HaMoed REALLY isโ€ฆ. YOM TOV,”

    Exactly. Since it is Yom tov, it is only appropriate one wakes up and davens as late as possible. Then meets his friends for a trip to Manhattan or shleps with his family to an amusement park, then runs to a concert at night, then hangs with his friends at a simchas beis hashoeiva somewhere till 2am, gets home exhausted and collapses on her until the next morning. Where the exact same thing is done once again only on different locations.

    Chag sameach.

    #1379104

    The little I know
    Participant

    Anyone wish to weigh in on the message of the Mishna in Pirkei Avos on ื”ืžื‘ื–ื” ืืช ื”ืžื•ืขื“ื•ืช? I would check the Bartenura first, and many others as well.

    #1379162

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Little Know….
    They didn’t invent “bein hazmanim” until long after the time of the mishna….

    #1379199

    The little I know
    Participant

    GH:

    My point precisely. When the “bein hazmanim” concept developed, the halachos of Chol Hamoed were long in place. In fact, that Mishna is not the source for the halacha. It is just another reminder of the severity of these halachos. It can be argued that the relaxation during leisure time can become part of the mitzvah. We find that HKB”H also allowed ืจื•ื•ื— ื‘ื™ืŸ ืคืจืฉื” ืœืคืจืฉื”, sort of a breather for Moshe Rabbeinu. Our sleep can also be a mitzvah if it invigorates us to be able to fulfill mitzvos. Staying up all night learning (sleep deprivation) and fasting have their places. But halacha keeps these to a minimum, as the Torah recognizes these as needs that facilitate our doing mitzvos. But to use this “free time” to experience ื—ื™ืจื•ืช ืžืŸ ื”ืžืฆื•ื•ืช is absurd.

    #1379235

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Sort of ironic that many of of today’s generation of future talmeidi chachamim grow up thinking about Moed succos in terms of trips to one of several theme parks and partying at all-nighj simchas beis hashoeivas more akin to Purim Sheini. The blurry line between “kodesh” and “chol” seems to have morphed in the wrong direction.

    #1379286

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: and in the 1970’s it was riding bicycles, playing softball and going bowling if it rained.

    #1379312

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Most of the yiddeshe mosdos and media reinforce the Moed Mania by hyping special concerts, theme park trips and other “unshteiging” type events. I’m not making any value judgements and probably lean in the direction of thinking that 8 straight days of yom tovish observance would challenge the attention span and hashkafah of even the biggest masmidim…..

    #1379334

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many Gedolim wished they could change the system so that there would be Yeshiva on Chol HaMoed even if the Yeshiva then had to give another four days (or however many) off to the talmidim on a regular non-Yom Tov time to “make up” for the days they had Yeshiva on Chol HaMoed for.

    #1379345

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    I approach it rather simply.
    I ask my kid/bochur to tell me what time are you davening tomorrow.
    Then I hold him to it. Even itโ€™s 930- as long as he has a zman. (Of course as long as itโ€™s not a farce such as -I donโ€™t know how about 1145)
    And as long as he has a one hour Chavrusa somewhere in the day.

    #1379375

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Baal Boose:

    As Bill Clinton would say, it really depends on what you mean by “reasonable”….if your bochur is studying at a yeshiva in EY and is home for the yom tovim he can perhaps legitimately argue that he will get up for shachris sometime in the early afternoon to take advantage of the reverse time difference with chutz la’aretz

    #1379432

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    To gadolha…
    That where one would exercise parental authority.
    And if one never enforced anything then one is creating
    A problem.

    #1379465

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    to ballabuste….

    Chazal bring down that having grown ups around exercising parental authority has been shown to be detrimental to spontaneity, development of an “individualized hashkafha” and an overall downer for bochurim looking to escape the rigor of heavy duty shteiging during bein hazmanim

    #1380017

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    GH: Where is that CHAZAL? And where is the halachah that on can use a reverse time difference with EY?

    #1380005

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    TO gadolha…
    (Iโ€™m wondering if there a message that u call me
    ballabuste – gender change?)
    Telling a bochur not to take things to an extreme
    by davening shachris -is appropriate.
    Giving him a chance to choose his minyan time is
    giving him breathing room.
    As a parent on must loosen the reins but not let go so that
    it drags on the floor.
    PS which Chazal are you referring to? Iโ€™m surprised there is such a chazal.
    There is one saying to maintain discipline. (Chosech shivto sosoneh beno )
    One must maintain loose reins to stimulate growth yet
    maintain at least 1% pressure to prevent weeds.

    #1380073

    El Rushbo
    Participant

    It’s NOT how he davens now, it’s how he davens in the future.

    DON’T BE A NUDGE TO HIM OR YOUR WILL PROBABLY RUIN ANY “CHAYSHIK” FOR DAVENING HE MIGHT HAVE.

    #1380095

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To BB….sorry for imputing an unwanted gender change procedure on your screen name….my imaginary chazal was satirically channeling some unnamed yungerleit providing his best schmooze as to why parents should “chill out” when he is back home bein hazamanin…

    #1380190

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “DONโ€™T BE A NUDGE TO HIM OR YOUR WILL PROBABLY RUIN ANY โ€œCHAYSHIKโ€ FOR DAVENING HE MIGHT HAVE.”

    sounds like this is written by a bachur. parenting, if done properly, never ruined anyones chaishek for anything.

    #1380198

    Joseph
    Participant

    Till what age does Chazal expect parents to discipline or have any “reins” on one’s children? Till Bar Mitzvah? Till wed (i.e. age 22)? Even when the child’s age 50?

    #1380209

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The best “parenting books” are written by millennial bochurim….they supposedly combine the best qualities of nevius and 20/20 hindsight into a new and more permissive parenting philosophy under which all of their actions as kids are both rational and consistent with a 21st century hashkafah

    #1380285

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Joseph, marriage is not something that automatically happens at age 22. Some get married at 18 or 28!

    #1380295

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Joseph:

    “Till what age does Chazal expect parents to discipline or have any โ€œreinsโ€ on oneโ€™s children??”

    There are various holdings among the achronim but in general, there is concensus that its until the z’man they move out of the basement and are no longer eligible for a dependent deduction for federal income tax purposes.

    #1380323

    Joseph
    Participant

    Alright, RY. So until what age or time should parents maintain discipline of their children?

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